Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ShadowDragon8685 11-14-04, 04:09 AM	Only, the last one I did, ended in disaster. I let the players walk all over me, and get away with stuff they never should have. Some of the players were also arses, but that's neither here nor there. For THIS campaign, I'm going to start off at level 7, so people who want to use a template, and those who want to start off as a Wyrmling dragon (as per Draconomicon rules) can do so. I've also sworn off anything that's not 'by the book.' However, what should I do? I mean, I've never got a game up this high before. What would you think I should do? I was thinking of starting the PCs off in a mining town (think Narshe,) that's partially built into the cliffs, and giving them the following potential adventures to follow: 1: Disaster in the mines. One day, the miners all came up screaming about monsters, a few of them with bloody chunks taken out of them. Zombies and other unpleasent undead have overrun the mine, under the guidence of a pair of Evil Clerics, who are after a rumored treasure trove of magical diamonds. Now zombies hammer at the walls with pitchforks, trying to find the rumored motherlode. 2: An orcish horde has occupied the town's farms, and is preventing food from coming by way of the river. The miners have desecrated an ancient orcish burial chamber when they broke into it from one of their shafts, and the orcs are extremely unhappy. The PCs either need to negotiate a settlement, or somehow drive the orcs off. (I figure they kill the chief and enough shaman, and the orcs will withdraw.) 3: A murderer is loose in the town. Ladies of the night have been turning up dead, brutalized in very nasty and definately not PG-13 ways. Nothing like a good whodunnit, eh? (Think Jack the Ripper.) 4: The river has stopped flowing. This is naturally an ecological and economic disaster, as the river is the town's lifeblood as much as the mines are. It brings them drinking water, feeds the farms, and powers the mill. Waaay up into the mountains, a slightly off-his-rocker druid is trying to create a very high-altitude ecosystem with trees nurtured to grow into rock, and fiendish dire beavers that are damming the river up. Well? Any ideas? Comments?
Sucineri 11-14-04, 04:13 AM	Okay, wait wait wait..you come from a bad group who walked all over you..and you don't want that to happen again.. ..so you create a game of a higher level, and are willing to allow people to make pretty much whatever they want? Wow..head is hurting, I need to lay down.
ShadowDragon8685 11-14-04, 04:25 AM	The 'walkage' is in the fact that they sweet-talked me into letting them have a template without an LA ajustment. This time, I'm going to enforce the rules to the letter. And I wanted it to start at higher level, because I'm hoping and PRAYING someone will take a copper or brass wrymling as per Draconomicon rules. Why? Dunno, I just do.
MortalPlague 11-14-04, 04:51 AM	I very highly recommend you run a very simple, core races and classes only first level game. Most of your ideas would actually work very well for first level, particularly the orc one. They would be excellent for a buildup adventure, advancing your PCs to about level 3 or 4, and giving them their first taste of adventure. A few words of advice from a long-time DM... The DM is always right! If your players question you, you really have to be an ass about things sometimes, and just stand by your ruling. Remember, you're making the world, you're controlling the monsters, and ultimately, you control the PCs too. If they question your rulings, just remind them that you're the DM. Stay in the game Generally a more important thing if your players goof off quite a bit, but the DM should always be the one most immersed in the game world, keeping the ooc to a minimum. The DM needs to keep the players in line and playing. Be able to improvise If the PCs pick a side path you didn't think they'd take, make sure you can think things up on the spot. Maybe have a few NPC stats blocks set aside for this express purpose, or a couple of side adventures, or better yet, make it up off the top of your head. Just be sure to indulge the PCs if they decide to traipse off and follow the farmer's wagon to the next town or go off in search of the fabled slippers of dancing the bard mentioned in a song.' Mix things up Not every orc is going to be a pushover monster. Some of them have PC levels, others may wield exotic weapons, and some of them ought to have distinct features. A broken tusk, a torn-out earring, a missing eye, etc; it all adds to the flavour of the world. Likewise for NPCs, not every man in shining full plate is going to be a fighter; the occasional one ought to be a strangely cultured barbarian, a paranoid wizard, or a bard! Hope those suggestions help, and good luck with your campaign.
Mizik 11-14-04, 05:18 AM	here are some ideas I had floating in my head 5. miners while tunneling have tunnled right into the tomb the miners decided that they should quickly reseal the tomb ("let what is buried stay buried") they resealed it the day after it was descovered. about a week later is when the truble started.... Some of the miners got sick but it quickly spread. now about half the camp is under quarinteen but that is not the bad part. Victoms slowly lose their grasp on reality and after about a day of fitfull holusonations (takeing wizdom damage down to 0) they go completly mad and try to kill people (exept those allready mad). 6. A local mercant is planing to over throw the minning comunity's goverment and enslave them all to exploit the mine for his own gains. I think most of you ideas are good ones but i think the 4th one is a littel on the wird side but maby that is just me. good luck :)
ShadowDragon8685 11-14-04, 07:05 AM	But that's just it, plauge. I'm sick and tired of level 1 boring campaigns. I WANT to be the odd man out, or to play a dragon, or whatever, but I can't, because the campaigns always start at level 1, and the weakest dragon is ECL 6. I have to suffer, but I don't see any reason my PCs should. I don't think the only reason anything outside the PHB core classes exist is purely so the DM can use them against the players. If they want to try something interesting or wild, I want them to play their dreams, not shackle them into mundanity. That is, after all, the point of D&D in the first place.... But, and here is where I pull out my hair, I basically got strong-armed into accepting the Expanded Psionics Handbook, and when I raised some concerns I had when flipping through it about these psionic abilities being unbalanced compared to Wizard and Sorcerer spells (like the energy ray power,) I was promptly told that they had balanced the XPH against books like Complete Divine, Complete Warrior, and the Planar Handbook. I don't want to juggle fifty two thousand books here! *cries.*
grimfaery 11-14-04, 08:55 AM	:fight!: Several key mistakes I see DMs do:  Allowing every core book to be used. If Oriental Adventures doesn’t fit in my world then it is not allowed. Same with Forgotten Realms, Eberron, etc. I might allow a few feats that I like or a few modified prestige classes from other stuff but it all has to fit and make sense in my world. And it can’t be unbalancing! The same rule applies to all third party material.  Allowing every race and/or class to be played. Just because they introduced the goliath as a new PC race in Races of Stone doesn’t mean that I have to now incorporate it into my world. In the game I will be running the only races allowed are human, half-elf, halfling, and dwarf. Gnomes, orcs, goliaths, don’t exist. Oh, and elves are the bad guys! Players might ***** and moan that they cant play their Hound Archons, or their half-dragons, but so what. Your world and your rules (Not to mention that playing a full-fledged dragon or minotaur is just silly.). Limiting (“O MY GOD HOW DARE YOU LIMIT MY OPTIONS AS A PLAYER”, said the player who was not invited back to my game) a players choices will make it much, much easier on you as a DM when it comes to making sure things stay balanced. Trust me on that one, I have seen it not only in my games but also in every game I have ever played in. And the fun comes from playing the game, not in what you are playing. If a player is all about his race and class rather than what the party is doing, then tell them to go and play EverCrack!  Not keeping it simple. This falls in line with my first two points. Keep it simple stupid. When you start allowing every single permutation of the game into your world then things start to lose their meaning and it becomes difficult to stay focused. Hope I helped and remember, if your world is going to go through the end times then the game is not about the apocalypse but what the players are doing during the apocalypse. :devil:
Arandar 11-14-04, 09:00 AM	Well, if it's balanced, it's balanced, but as MortalPlague pointed out, "The DM is ALWAYS right!". If they strong-arm you into using something you won't do, then they're trying to walk all over you. To your problem that people can't start out with templates etc if you start a group at level 1, if you have Savage Species your problem is solved. Make the templates/monster races into "template/monster levels", give them their abilities over the first 6 levels (so they're going to start out as level 1 Wyrmling Dragons, no class levels), then when they finally reach level 7, they can take their first PC class ;) I'm currently playing in a Campaign, where I really really wanted to make a Sun Elf Bard. My DM (who's also a newbie first-timer, although now he's DM'ed for better part of 1½ years) told me "I don't feel comfortable enough DM'ing that I'll allow other races than those from the PHB", so my response was "fine :)" and I made a PHB Elf-bard instead ;)
Neerie 11-14-04, 09:15 AM	:fight!: Several key mistakes I see DMs do:  Allowing every core book to be used. If Oriental Adventures doesn’t fit in my world then it is not allowed. Same with Forgotten Realms, Eberron, etc. I might allow a few feats that I like or a few modified prestige classes from other stuff but it all has to fit and make sense in my world. And it can’t be unbalancing! The same rule applies to all third party material. Just a note: there are only 3 core books, the other ones are accessories ;) But I agree that every DM should restrict their players to what they want to see in their world and what they feel comfortable at DMing.
ShadowDragon8685 11-14-04, 03:00 PM	Yes, but if I do that, how can I justify using all these creatures AGAINST the PCs? Is it like, the only Template'd creatures turn out to be Evil adventurers or something? The giths I can get away doing that with - extraplanar races and all. And every DM says "Don't let them play anything but what's in the PHB." Why? Didn't WotC make these things nice and balanced, if you use the LA rules properly? And if they didn't, how can you justify using them AGAINST the PCs? And I don't have Savage Species. I've heard of how it works, and to be frank I like the idea, but that book is 3.0. I heard way too many horror stories about mixing editions or half-editions.
Winter's requiem 11-14-04, 03:32 PM	OK. The players souldn't have a template without level ajustment. They souldn't have it at all.So my advice. start a level seven game and let the players start with no equipment, and NO TEMPLATES!!! If your players try to take command stop them you need to show them who's the boss. When they try to do bossy things make it hard for them, and remember, Dungeon masters cant cheet, so if the try to get away with for example robbing a whole general store. dont throw a dice to see if the guards manage to catch them, just tell the player that the guards cought them. What I said about DMs cant cheet is written in DMs guide. ________________________ Whenever she is raging, she takes all life away. Haven't you seen? Haven't you seen? The ruins of our world. Within Temptation:Ice Queen.
ShadowDragon8685 11-14-04, 03:36 PM	They're not *going* to have templates without LAs. But, upon hearing that my 'friend' and his friend have been known to double-team and strong-arm DMs into accepting noncore books just so they can make twin characters to play off each other...
Winter's requiem 11-14-04, 03:39 PM	Then make them start with no items, and no other spesial things just normal level 7 PCs. ________________________ Whenever she is raging, she takes all life away. Haven't you seen? Haven't you seen? The ruins of our world. Within Temptation:Ice Queen.
Bringslite 11-14-04, 03:42 PM	Won't your wyrling dragon be 10th lvl or even epic before he even passes the very young stage? I guess that Dracominocon allows dragon PC's but it seems kind of wierd to me.
Caligula 11-14-04, 04:03 PM	First, I think your general ideas about your new campaign are great! Especially the "Jack the Ripper" theme sounds exciting and is a great start for making PCs acquainted with the townsfolk, when they go around looking for clues. Second, I´m sorry to hear about your problems with players in the past. However, I think you can avoid "arguments" with your players in a quite simple manner. I usually play as DM, and when introducing a player to my campaign I first let him read my 1-page (A4) campaign rules. This single page document lists my rules for creating PCs (5d6, disregard 2 worst), houserules (reroll hitdice 1´s), and any other rules I have in my campaign. A rule that should be clear to all is that the DM decides on all rulings. In play, wheh we have an argument on the rules, I follow my heart, make aruling but also make a note about the event. Then, when we are finished playing, we can conclude the discussion. If the player/players had a point, perhaps I will change my rules-interpretation for next game. But to not interrupt game-play and the "atmosphere", it´s important to leave discussions of the rules until after the game. Be clear with your rulings and the way you want to keep the campaign. That will earn the respect of the players!
ShadowDragon8685 11-14-04, 04:18 PM	Thanks. I've decided to figure out how to Savage Specify the dragons so they can start at ECL 5... I just dunno how. :)
MortalPlague 11-14-04, 05:07 PM	You know, I'm quite the opposite. I revel in making interesting characters from normal races and classes. To me, the idea of playing a dragon in a serious campaign seems silly, considering that dragons live for thousands of years and wouldn't share most of the same concerns that PCs would. Not to mention that they'd also advance much, much slower than the PCs (or at least they ought to). I've seen a lot of new DMs try to start campaigns, and whenever they start it at a level higher than first, it always seems to flop. They have no idea how their players suddenly became so powerful. Even I'm amazed when I start campaigns at levels higher than one. Anyway, if you insist on doing that, limit their equipment. I can't stress this enough! If you give them the gold they ought to have according to the DMG (which, in my eyes, is strongly overpowered), set a gp cap for the amount they can spend on a single item. Also, make sure they clear each and every item with you, mostly so that you'll know what each PC has and be able to design encounters that won't be foiled by a "Hey, I didn't know he could do that!". Finally, as for non-core books, I almost always say no, unless you clear them with the DM. That way you can limit the feats and items and prestige classes they take to the ones that you deem balanced and fair. Once again, it also cuts down on the "I didn't know they could do that!" factor, and even better, allows you to tailor some challenges to fit the PCs abilities.
Nova_blade 11-14-04, 06:18 PM	Alternately, why not just go for a compromise? Maybe start at level 3, or 4... I find that at those levels you're drastically more survivable, and your character begins to come into his/her own.
ShadowDragon8685 11-14-04, 06:47 PM	I did. No one item may represent more than 35% of your character's wealth. So no blowing all of your money on a one-trick pony. Nothing will be accepted until and unless I have seen it rolled, and gone over it with the player. Usually, I'm very strict on this, to the point of them telling me what they want, and I'm making their character sheet. There will be no "I didn't know he could do that" factor. At levelups, I demand to get a new copy of thier sheet. And I dunno. I think an extremely young dragon could easily take up adventuring concerns. If for no other reason than that adventurers tend to have portable hordes. :)
ShadowDragon8685 11-20-04, 09:49 AM	Okay. I need some more help. I figure that I'm gonna do the orcish horde thing at some point - only I want the orcs to look and feel more like the orcs from Warcraft III than the ones from normal D&D. You know, the ones who're honorable and misunderstood, fighting for their race's survival and prosperity. THOSE are the ones that I want the orcish horde scenario to include. Including their charismatic wolf-riding leader. :) So, here's the bit... What class would be best for a Thrall clone? A Druid would work well for the lightning stuff (Call Lightning, etcetera,) and the summoning wolves, but that damned bit about not using metal gets me. Far Seers don't have much compunction about wrought metal, and while they won't despoil the land wastefully, they aren't averse to taking what they need, and some extra for good measure. Also, do Sorcerers get many Divination spells?
Mythmere 11-20-04, 03:42 PM	Seem to be two issues here: 1) you're asking for plotline advice 2) the readers are picking up on the fact that as a fairly new DM, you're doing a campaign that increases the difficulty of the DM's task AND that you seem to still be letting your players dictate some of the terms of the campaign. Plotline advice: when you start a campaign at a higher level, keep in mind that the characters have already made themselves a reputation and that the creatures it makes sense for them to be fighting aren't as common as the run of the mill village-annoying pesky monster. DM advice: (a) Propose your ruling, entertain discussion, and if your players still don't agree (assuming they don't convince you), explain why you're going with your ruling. In this way, it's clear that you're the referee but that you're not on a power trip. (b) you need to enjoy the world you're playing in. If a player really wants to play something unusual (psionic, in this case), try to work it out in a way that still gives you a clear idea of the kind of environment that makes up the world. If you can't get that clear picture, ask the players for suggestions. But if it doesn't work, it doesn't work out. It's important for the DM to make the world but let the players tell their own story (someone on the boards said this once, and I wish I could credit him). But the DM has to create the world and be able to play it - if it doesn't make sense to you, you'll fail at this task and not have the fun that you're entitled to have while playing a game yourself.