Post/Author/DateTime	Post
makeshiftwings 10-13-05, 07:16 PM	So, I'm sure this has come up in other people's campaigns at some point. I have a rogue in the party with high Slight of Hand and sneaking skills, whose background includes some petty thievery. Once or twice when the characters have gone to buy items in town, she's asked "Can't I just steal everything?" and I'm not entirely sure what my answer should be. I'm playing in Eberron, where most NPCs and merchants are fairly low level, so I can't really come up with many ideas why a mid-level rogue with some sneaky magic coudn't just go and rob most shopkeepers blind. I don't really want an answer like "Tell her yes, and then have a hundred guards show up and kill her right away! That'll teach her!" I'd rather have a less permanent means to deter the idea that you can bypass the wealth-by-level rules by just robbing every big city blind as you pass through. And what have other DMs done? Do you just not let your rogue steal anything, ever? Do you only allow them to steal low-level and cheap items? Help?
20goingon1232 10-13-05, 07:24 PM	The answer is she can TRY to do that. However, only the really crap shopkeepers would not have some magical safeguards in place. I mean, really, that shopkeeper selling magic stuff is going to at least have a modified form of alarm spell on his stuff that will trigger if someone moves things without his permission. So, sure, she can steal the 50lb bag of flour if she wants. It's not going to nett her much. Also, if a whole bunch of things start disappearing and some new-in-town person start selling said stuff, heads will roll. Even the local thieves guild would frown on such nonsense on their turf. It will bring heat on them for no reason whatsoever, as far as they are concerned. Logical consequences follow.
Bryarr 10-13-05, 07:25 PM	Let him try it, but keep close attention to the amoutn of money everything he steals is worth. Five levels from now, when he complains that he never finds any magic items that are useful for rogues, smile, shrug, and ask who his next mark is going to be. heheh Bry
wolf_mage 10-13-05, 08:31 PM	Let him try it, but keep close attention to the amoutn of money everything he steals is worth. Five levels from now, when he complains that he never finds any magic items that are useful for rogues, smile, shrug, and ask who his next mark is going to be. heheh Bry This is a terrible idea.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 10-13-05, 08:39 PM	Grin evilly, chuckle softly, and say: "Well, you can certainly try..."
Aliquid 10-13-05, 08:42 PM	I'm playing in Eberron, where most NPCs and merchants are fairly low level, so I can't really come up with many ideas why a mid-level rogue with some sneaky magic coudn't just go and rob most shopkeepers blind.In real life, most shop-owners aren't security experts, yet they still have video surveillance, and alarms. They manage this by paying someone to protect their store for them. Same can happen in Eberron. I’m not personally familiar with the world, but I imagine that there could be a high level NPC that goes around town (or from town to town), setting up security systems in stores (for a price). If someone gets busted stealing, I doubt that the shopkeep will be able to do anything about it personally, but there are town guards, and there probably is a “Merchant’s guild”, and they would stick together. They would probably pool their resources, and hire a bounty hunter if there is a problematic thief in town.
Ranger_ORB 10-13-05, 08:45 PM	Let him try it, but keep close attention to the amoutn of money everything he steals is worth. Five levels from now, when he complains that he never finds any magic items that are useful for rogues, smile, shrug, and ask who his next mark is going to be. heheh Bry] Don't listen to this person You should let the person try to steal it but as someone said magic items would have safeguards and some shops might even hire bodyguards of some sort...
Flushmaster 10-13-05, 09:05 PM	I agree that some degree of magical protections against theft in a shop that carries magical or otherwise expensive items. If their inventory is chock full of things worth hundreds and thousands of gold pieces each then they can obviously afford a few thousand gold for inventory protection. I also like the idea of a merchant's guild pooling together to hire a bounty hunter in the event of a series of apparently connected robberies.
ORC_Paradox 10-13-05, 09:17 PM	Grin evilly, chuckle softly, and say: "Well, you can certainly try..." No. Try not. Do, or do not. There is no try.
LordofNightmares 10-13-05, 09:24 PM	Have you ever really looked at stores that do not have security systems? All the stuff worth stealing is behind the counter. This sort of thing should be going on with the stuff your thief wants to steal. Cheap display items are left out in the open, real merchandise is locked away. This would be especially true with magic and other wealthy stuff. Yeah, common swords would jsut be hanging on the walls, but that one +1 flaming sowrd the shopkeep came accross a few years ago... well, that would be *at the very least* hanging on the wall behind him, behind the counter... or even under the counter and only available to those who specifically asks to see it.
rkr1970 10-13-05, 09:33 PM	Won't your player be shocked when he finds that old thieves become merchants when they retire? And that they have retained their abilities to be a sneaky SOB? I've done that to a player once. He ripped off a dozen or so vendors in the market, then ran into one in the alley on his way back to the inn. It wasn't a "pleasant" conversation, but the ex-theif wasn't too mean. Also, what happens when the local theives' guild spots a freelancer hitting the market when vendors are paying protection?
Marros 10-13-05, 10:01 PM	If your player really wants to go a theiving spree, I say let him. What with all these magical defenses and alarms that shopkeeps tend to have in place, it isn't always easy. Assign a CR to each "trap" or the overall theft based on the difficulty in succeeding and the loot involved. Make it an "encounter" of sorts. Just be sure to balance the challenge and the reward. If he succeeds, he earns EXP and Treasure (and, if handled correctly, this will not unbalance the wealth-by-level guidelines a whole lot), and also the satisfaction of successfully pulling off a job his class was made for. If he fails and gets caught, then the party has to go get the rogue out of trouble again, which can lead other encounters and fights and EXP and treasure. And who doesn't like all of those things? It all works out if you're a flexible DM.
tharivol266 10-13-05, 10:07 PM	well...magic shop=mage=arcane locks.
clarkvalentine 10-13-05, 10:07 PM	In the magic-as-technology world of Eberron, lots of shopkeepers would certainly have contracted with a security guild to have their store protected by all sorts of magical gizmos and whatsits. There are probably a hundred magewrights in the city of Fairhaven alone making their living casting alarm, guards and wards, scry, and other useful security spells.
UmbraLux 10-13-05, 10:12 PM	First of all, any shop with particularly valuable items would have some amount of protection and possibly a guard. However, a skilled thief may still be able to swipe one or more items. She'll even get away with it for a while. But what happens when she steals from a shop paying 'protection' money to the local thieves guild? :devil:
Bryarr 10-13-05, 10:16 PM	This is a terrible idea. Yes it is! Who was that person? Bry
Flushmaster 10-13-05, 10:57 PM	I agree with several of the recent posters. As I stated earlier, magical (and therefor expensive) inventory means either a smart shopkeeper with magical protection or sophisticated mundane traps. If the shopkeeper is paying protection money to a thieves' guild then the thief has issues with that guild. The whole concept of organized crime (like a thieves' guild) selling "protection" is based on one thing: "We're the nastiest guys on the block, and if you pay us to not mess with you then nobody else will." Really, when was the last time in a mafia movie that you saw a shopkeeper who was paying protection money get hurt? If the guild allows somebody else to harm a business then they lose credibility and there is now no reason for the other business to pay them for "protection." So any shopkeeper "minding their own business" in a neighborhood controlled by a serious thieves' guild would rightfully expect the guild to respond. After all, they have to protect their turf and that would involve violence against the PC.
tuffn00gies 10-13-05, 11:02 PM	If your player really wants to go a theiving spree, I say let him. The problem with this approach is that the rest of the party is sitting around the table bored while you're running miniadventures for 1 PC. How many "successful" thieves got there by shoplifting anyway? The proper way to rob a store would be to break in after hours and steal everything. Plus that's something the whole party could get in on. Well, except the paladin of course.
wolf_mage 10-13-05, 11:08 PM	The problem with this approach is that the rest of the party is sitting around the table bored while you're running miniadventures for 1 PC. This is a valid problem, but is out-of-game. I would suggest explaining this to the player OOC, and perhaps coming up with a compromise of some sort.
20goingon1232 10-13-05, 11:39 PM	The problem with this approach is that the rest of the party is sitting around the table bored while you're running miniadventures for 1 PC. How many "successful" thieves got there by shoplifting anyway? The proper way to rob a store would be to break in after hours and steal everything. Plus that's something the whole party could get in on. Well, except the paladin of course. Or you can have the thief wait and ask if the rest of the party wants to do something while the thief is busy getting himself arres- err... I mean attempting to steal.
yellowdingo 10-13-05, 11:53 PM	There is nothing that adds to the adventure more than "oh, did you hear? Some villain did the market shops last night! What is this poor little town coming to..." as you stand there with a wagon (which you also stole) laiden down with all manor of goodies. I'm surprised you havnt added steal equipment to the class requirements.
Lord Gwydion 10-14-05, 12:14 AM	As others have mentioned, in Eberron there isn't a lot of high-level magic, but low level magic use is widespread. Several of the Dragon-marked Houses deal in security, detection, and the like. Also, as mentioned, quite a few magewrites are likely to make a good bit of income by casting protection spells for mundane shops. Another point to consider is that a lot of masterwork quality goods are made-to-order deals. Sure, there are some master artisans that create masterwork goods as a matter of course, but the average craftsman isn't going to attempt making an expensive item like that unless she knows she's got a paying customer. I'd allow a PC Rogue to attempt to steal things, but there would be penalties to Sleight of Hand checks appropriate to the size/weight/volume of the goods stolen. Even with a bag of holding, it can be hard to slip a greataxe into it without being spotted. Also, to speed play, I might just have them make a single check, and allow the player to choose X gp worth of goods depending on the check, and that's it. Any more and the shopkeeper gets suspicious. Oh, and when the theft is discovered, there may well be consequences. Thieves' Guilds, Merchant's Guilds, town watch, Dragonmark Houses, etc....
OleOneEye 10-14-05, 12:22 AM	It would seem that the rogues alignment would largely determine whether they would try to steal.
wonlee76 10-14-05, 01:12 AM	Just remember the limits on sleight of hand. Its limited to small sized objects like a small coin purse or maybe a ring or some other small piece of jewelry. Its not like the rogue will be able to walk into a weapon shop and walk out with several suits of armor and a bunch of swords that were on the rack without being noticed. And I would imagine security measures in a jewelry shop might be higher then your typical shop due to the price on the items. More expensive items sold, the higher the security measures.
Marros 10-14-05, 02:08 AM	Originally Posted by tuffn00gies The problem with this approach is that the rest of the party is sitting around the table bored while you're running miniadventures for 1 PC. Yes, that's true. I forgot that my PCs spend more time apart from each other than is typical in most campaigns. It really depends on how much the DM emphasises downtime between adventures. In my game, downtime is somewhat significant to the plot development, and it isn't just skipped over. Anyone would have more than enough time to steal whatever they wanted to. Yet if the DM is prone to saying "Your week in Calimport was uneventful," then yes, it would be a problem if the rogue wanted to do something like this. Even if its not an involved raid and he merely passes a note to the DM saying he makes a Sleight of Hand check, he could be caught and there would be a fight or a pursuit or an arrest, possibly derailing the DM's plans for the session. It all depends on the game, I suppose.
rkr1970 10-14-05, 02:26 AM	There is nothing that adds to the adventure more than "oh, did you hear? Some villain did the market shops last night! What is this poor little town coming to..." as you stand there with a wagon (which you also stole) laiden down with all manor of goodies. That's a fun idea... Have the player come by before the game and try his luck. If he succeeds, let him pat himself on the back and then, during the regular game, have one of the other party members hear a rumor. "There was a bunch of stuff stolen from the market today. Even from Ol' Charsen. Poor bastard... If he's lucky, the town gaurd will hang him before the assassin's guild skins him alive. What kind of a moron steals from the guild leader's grandfather, eh?" Then, let him sweat it out. Describe shadowy figures at every opportunity. Have the player find a bloody dagger in his room at the inn. Wake the character with a loud knock and the town guard asking to come in, but it turns out they need help with another problem and decided to turn to adventurers. Then, one of the guards asks the thief if he knows him. He runs in to a couple of his victims in the tavern, complaining about thieves. When the player is ready to wet himself, have someone mention that they caught the guy who robbed Ol' Charsen. "He was trying to pawn something of the old man's. Too bad, to, 'cause skinnin' woulda been gentler..." And you leave it at that. See if he feels that brave in the next town... :devil:
Lord Gwydion 10-14-05, 02:52 AM	That's a fun idea... Have the player come by before the game and try his luck. If he succeeds, let him pat himself on the back and then, during the regular game, have one of the other party members hear a rumor. "There was a bunch of stuff stolen from the market today. Even from Ol' Charsen. Poor bastard... If he's lucky, the town gaurd will hang him before the assassin's guild skins him alive. What kind of a moron steals from the guild leader's grandfather, eh?" Then, let him sweat it out. Describe shadowy figures at every opportunity. Have the player find a bloody dagger in his room at the inn. Wake the character with a loud knock and the town guard asking to come in, but it turns out they need help with another problem and decided to turn to adventurers. Then, one of the guards asks the thief if he knows him. He runs in to a couple of his victims in the tavern, complaining about thieves. When the player is ready to wet himself, have someone mention that they caught the guy who robbed Ol' Charsen. "He was trying to pawn something of the old man's. Too bad, to, 'cause skinnin' woulda been gentler..." And you leave it at that. See if he feels that brave in the next town... :devil: I like it. Just be sure that the captured criminal confesses within a Zone of Truth, and the authorities know that he wasn't responsible for all the crime. The authorities are still investigating, but not as diligently as before. If the thief character gets off the hook scot-free in the end, he might think he can get off the hook in the end next time, too...
FriendoftheDork 10-14-05, 02:54 AM	1: Yes, she can but remind her of the risks involved. Apart from the shop's security, she might also know the local thieves guild might take offense at anyone operating on their "turf" without permission. Laws govern the world, even the criminal one, and breaking it will often result in harsh consequences. 2. They won't have much worth stealing, or they have good secuity. Never mind the shopkeepers level. 3. Don't waste the players time with this, have her do it outside play. Idea: The rogue burgles a common merchant, hoping to get some quick and easy money. She's suprised when she stumbles over a large chest with alot more money that she hoped for, let's say 10-20 times as much. Also in the chest she finds a list with names and a figure in GP or SP for each of the names, with a few extra notes for some of the names. If she has some local knowledge she might even recognise a few names as powerful individuals, perhaps even rulers. This should set her mind spinning...
FriendoftheDork 10-14-05, 02:55 AM	I like it. Just be sure that the captured criminal confesses within a Zone of Truth, and the authorities know that he wasn't responsible for all the crime. The authorities are still investigating, but not as diligently as before. If the thief character gets off the hook scot-free in the end, he might think he can get off the hook in the end next time, too... the zone doesen't work, a will save allows someone to lie and no way to detect it since it's area effect.
rkr1970 10-14-05, 02:59 AM	I like it. Just be sure that the captured criminal confesses within a Zone of Truth, and the authorities know that he wasn't responsible for all the crime. The authorities are still investigating, but not as diligently as before. If the thief character gets off the hook scot-free in the end, he might think he can get off the hook in the end next time, too... Who said that Ol' Charsen was robbed by the character? There are other thieves in the world. And seeing what's left of this one may serve as an object lesson to the party members. Also, if the guild caught the guy, no authority is going to be able to question him. At least no worldly authority. It's also more fun to screw with the PLAYER'S heads than just the character's heads. :evillaugh
Phist 10-14-05, 03:58 AM	It's been said before, but magic is very common in Eberron. That's your easiest out to this situation. However, even magical security can be defeated and a rogue is just the person to do it. However, there is no way they would be able to just lift it off the counters with the guy right there. To make off with loot you have to have a plan, you have to spend a little cash, you have to take some risks. In the end, it about balances out. It's still a lot easier than the straight and narrow, but the risk counterbalances that. A smart thief could make a nice living out of it, but a smart, skilled person could make a good living in any proffession. Some plans for robbing Eberron shops: 'Good Ol' Sneaky': Break into the shop at night. Pick locks and disable traps. Requires good ranks in related skills and if you fail a roll you might be sunk right there. 'Bait and Snatch': Have someone else stage some sort of emergency while the rogue pockets everything even remotely portable. Requires an accomplice that can act (and therefor splitting the earnings), and a bit of good luck. Also, Open Lock checks might be required to open cases and such. 'Watch Me Go': Incapacitate the shopkeeper and make off with the goods. The subtlest way to do this is to cover a coin in contact poison and give it to the shopkeeper in payment for something(Don't forget to wear gloves). Other plans incude having an arcane caster Ghoul Touch/Deep Slumber/etc him, or just killing him. Remember that if he doesn't know you're going to attack him, you get sneak attack damage when you do. 'Mr Angry': Get everything you can while he watches, and just walk out with it. When he chases after you, get your barbarian/fighter friend to give him a one-way ticket to the Cogs on the gravity express.
pmurray@bigpond.com 10-14-05, 04:09 AM	"Can't I just steal everything?" IMO: Rogues engaging in burgulary - doing the planning, dealing with the consequences - is a legitimate part of an urban adventure. However, it can tend to exclude the rest of the party. There are plot hooks, etc. Why send the party to a faraway dungeon, when you can have someone hire them to recover the Orb of Asheron which is conveniently in a heavily-guarded pawnshop in town? What happens if they are caught? Can the rogue afford the fines? Perhaps the merchant guild will demand that the fine be paid off by performing a service! But like everything else, the process is the same: decide what the rogue must do, decide the DC, have them roll it. You can do it all as one big roll, or you can make it into a mini adventure. There are two stages: First, the rogue must "case the joint" - gather information, spot, search (with a heavy DC because they must not be observed). If they are caught doing it, they need to bluff their way out. If they do well on this stage, then I say give them bonuses to the next stage: making the heist. Why not allow multiple attempts at "casing the joint"? Each time you do it (via gather information or via spot), if you beat the DC then you gain useful information, and if you fail badly then you are noticed doing it (or make a separate roll in secret). There should be a penalty on each subsequent attempt, reflecting that ultimately you find out everything you can, and if you are nosy for long enough then eventually someone will notice. Next, the rogue must make the heist. To make the heist, they must get to the shop unseen (hide), they must break in (open lock), they must disable any alarms (disable trap), they must move about silently if the owner lives there (move silently), they must pick up the good stuff (appraise?), and then get out. There is a third stage: fencing the loot, but that's not relevant for items that the character or party wants to keep. It might be nice for WotC to do up a table for appropriate DCs to case/heist/fence various kinds of establishments in various kinds of town, with tables for randomly generating what kind of alarm/guards they might have. There's also places there for a "skilled fence" feat. Actually, this applies to any sort of breaking and entry - eg: getting into an embassy to inspect and copy some documents. You could even run a whole adventure (why not!) where the party were a team of Rogues (with some multiclassing) operating in a city. Is there already something like this in the Rogue splatbook?
Gedrin 10-14-05, 04:34 AM	I would simply judge that a range of items would be avaiable for casual theft. Items under 6" cubed could be stolen. Anything bigger requires special measures, and advanced preperations. Items under 5gp in value would have no special protection. Anything more valuable would require a special adventure, as the DM needs time to decide the shop's layout and security. Providing a DC 15 Slight of Hand roll is made, the character can have that item. On failure, things get to hot, and the shop keeps become suspicious. On a 1, the shop keep spots the charcter in the act. Alternatively, build a random table of shops. Table 1 Live Security: The kinds of people who watch the shop. Usually this is normal staff (Spot +3) only during business hours. Of course, some shops will have professional guards (Spot +10). Table 2 Physical Security: Mostly, locked doors and the expensive stuff behind the counter. Some will have traps and reinforced doors. Table 3 Magical Security: If anything, the Alarm spell. Some will have bound air elementals or invisible stalkers. Table 4 Response: Most people just report it to the guard. Some will do that, and hire bounty hunters. Others become personally offended, and hire assassins. From these 4 tables you could probably have a random shop pretty quick. However, I think your theif should try to understand that you can't always take time from the session for their personal adventure. Since there's really no chance that the town guard or the shop keeper is going to catch the party rogue, no reason to make an adventure of it. However, after a few failures, the PC will become a person of interest to the guard. If they're easily recognized (like someone with lots of magic stuff) the shop keepers may recognize him as a person who's thought to be a thief. Continually stealing in the same area raises the DC, as shop keepers pay more attention. Like other professional criminals, the thief would have to wory about bounties and warrants. The party will find the theif to be a hinderance, unless they go that way also. Eventually, the theif will steal something of genuine value, and the party can expect to be confronted by adventurers hunting them at that point.
rkr1970 10-14-05, 09:16 AM	Everyone here realizes, of course, that many of the more common items, like rope, would be easier to steal from, say, a farm, rather than from a shop? You don't even have to be that sneaky to steal stuff from most places at night. If this thief insists on ripping off merchants, most of whom are alert for the attempt, you are obliged to mess with the fellow.
Sulaco 10-14-05, 09:38 AM	Just use the law of averages. You try to steal enough and eventually you get caught. Beyond all the magical mumbo jumbo any shopkeep with goods worth stealing is probably employing a number of large, hairy men who appear to be constructed of beer-barrels and who go down on his tax return as "essential heavy equipment". These guys keep a very close eye on individuals who do a lot of browsing but no buying. When they catch thieves they turn them in to the watch house - eventually - or more often than not to several different watch houses at the same time. Apart from all that, doesn't "career petty thief" seem a commonplace profession for a supposed hero?
Chobemaster 10-14-05, 11:59 AM	The problem with this approach is that the rest of the party is sitting around the table bored while you're running miniadventures for 1 PC. How many "successful" thieves got there by shoplifting anyway? The proper way to rob a store would be to break in after hours and steal everything. Plus that's something the whole party could get in on. Well, except the paladin of course. IRL, that's mostly true. In D&D, when you can fit something worth 20 houses in your pocket, it's a different dynamic.
Aliquid 10-14-05, 12:09 PM	IRL, that's mostly true. In D&D, when you can fit something worth 20 houses in your pocket, it's a different dynamic.And if you have a bag of holding....
FriendoftheDork 10-14-05, 12:38 PM	IRL, that's mostly true. In D&D, when you can fit something worth 20 houses in your pocket, it's a different dynamic. Eh, IRL you can fit something alot more worth than 20 houses in your pocket too you know. In fact you can fit it all in a little plastic card. ... which means security is high, as it should be in D&D. Any shop carrying magic items and knowing their worth should have expensive and good countermeasure against thievery. Since most magic items are not sold over the counter anyway, but rather ordered from the crafters themselves or middle men, you can't steal them from ordinary shops. In fact, the most portable you can steal from shops would be gems, art objects and money, and this will of course be protected at least with a good lock. Does this prevent a high level Rogue? No, not really, but these are few and far between, and might even have gained a reputation that makes it difficult to engage in such activities. In any case such a master thief should not really be engaging in petty theft, but rather make THE heist.
prettyripples 10-14-05, 01:00 PM	You said you wanted a less permament solution than the town guard. Well, the rumour mill can be pretty robust. In a small town, there's no way suspicion for the thefts wouldn't fall on your party. Sure, there may not be much evidence, and there might not be much of a town guard, but just see how your PCs feel when they get insulted by the barmaid; spat at by some beggar in the street, in plain view so they can't retaliate. Have every waiter, landlord and shoe-scrubber charge them double for a week. Then, next time they go on a shopping trip, every shopkeeper in town closes their doors to the party. Those guys are going to get the rogue to stop very quickly. And then there's what to do next... a quest to regain town trust? Frame somebody else, and 'catch' him with all the stuff (or most of it, anyway - this one depends on party alignment)? Or just move on to the next town? Well, that last one is what bards are for **cackles** Of course, I'd be careful about taking this too far - it's only fun for a little while, so give them a chance to stop it or leave. If you take pity on them, you can always say that without fresh evidence, most people lose interest and stop mistreating them. I think it's fair to say that that one shopkeeper's prices would be up by 20% for a while, though. Anyway: a proportionate response to theft that really hits your characters in subtle but noticable ways, which they're just not able to deal with.
Schmendrick 10-14-05, 01:55 PM	Let him try it, but keep close attention to the amoutn of money everything he steals is worth. Five levels from now, when he complains that he never finds any magic items that are useful for rogues, smile, shrug, and ask who his next mark is going to be. heheh Bry This guy is a jerk. Don't listen to him. Your job is to compare the wealth gained from encounters in your adventure with the expected wealth gain shown on the table above. If your adventure has more treasure, reduce it. If your adventure has less treasure, plant enough treasure not related to encounters to match the value (see Other Treasure, below). :)
Telis_the_Deadeye 10-14-05, 11:25 PM	Who said that Ol' Charsen was robbed by the character? There are other thieves in the world. And seeing what's left of this one may serve as an object lesson to the party members. Also, if the guild caught the guy, no authority is going to be able to question him. At least no worldly authority. It's also more fun to screw with the PLAYER'S heads than just the character's heads. :evillaugh Players in your game do a lot of crying, don't they? It's been said before, but magic is very common in Eberron. That's your easiest out to this situation. However, even magical security can be defeated and a rogue is just the person to do it. A shop that carries everyday junk for adventurers and farmers has magic security systems? Why? Doesn't it cost more for the magic than the stuff it protects? Beyond all the magical mumbo jumbo any shopkeep with goods worth stealing is probably employing a number of large, hairy men who appear to be constructed of beer-barrels and who go down on his tax return as "essential heavy equipment". These guys keep a very close eye on individuals who do a lot of browsing but no buying. When they catch thieves they turn them in to the watch house - eventually - or more often than not to several different watch houses at the same time. Niether Rkr and you fight fair. 300 lb thumb breakers and assassins. Hell! You're better off getting caught! In a small town, there's no way suspicion for the thefts wouldn't fall on your party. Sure, there may not be much evidence, and there might not be much of a town guard, but just see how your PCs feel when they get insulted by the barmaid; spat at by some beggar in the street, in plain view so they can't retaliate. Have every waiter, landlord and shoe-scrubber charge them double for a week. Then, next time they go on a shopping trip, every shopkeeper in town closes their doors to the party. That's more like it. At least you can live through that.
rkr1970 10-14-05, 11:42 PM	Players in your game do a lot of crying, don't they? Niether Rkr and you fight fair. 300 lb thumb breakers and assassins. Hell! You're better off getting caught! I try not to make people cry. ;) There is the occasional cussing out, though. Usually when someone gets too big for their character's britches and tries something stupid. :D That's OK. Being cursed at for doing my doesn't hurt my job as DM feelings.
Bayne 10-15-05, 12:08 AM	If your player really wants to go a theiving spree, I say let him. What with all these magical defenses and alarms that shopkeeps tend to have in place, it isn't always easy. Assign a CR to each "trap" or the overall theft based on the difficulty in succeeding and the loot involved. Make it an "encounter" of sorts. Just be sure to balance the challenge and the reward. If he succeeds, he earns EXP and Treasure (and, if handled correctly, this will not unbalance the wealth-by-level guidelines a whole lot), and also the satisfaction of successfully pulling off a job his class was made for. If he fails and gets caught, then the party has to go get the rogue out of trouble again, which can lead other encounters and fights and EXP and treasure. And who doesn't like all of those things? It all works out if you're a flexible DM. This is ussally from experience the best way to do it. Any one item should be as hard to get through theft as it would be through battles CR wise.
yellowdingo 10-15-05, 12:48 AM	It would seem that the rogues alignment would largely determine whether they would try to steal. So you are saying that Robin Hood wouldnt be obliged to hold up the Tax Wagon of Prince John (Who historicaly was reviled because he introduced taxation to pay for Richards Crusade, and subsequent randsom payment of some 14 thousand gp after being taken hostage on the way home) frankly being reviled for taxation and bureacracy while others are loved for slaughter and religious genocide are pretty pathetic. Prince John was a refreshing breath of civilization and fiscal government in a time of corruption, bankruptcy, and genocide.
rkr1970 10-15-05, 01:00 AM	So you are saying that Robin Hood wouldnt be obliged to hold up the Tax Wagon of Prince John (Who historicaly was reviled because he introduced taxation to pay for Richards Crusade, and subsequent randsom payment of some 14 thousand gp after being taken hostage on the way home) frankly being reviled for taxation and bureacracy while others are loved for slaughter and religious genocide are pretty pathetic. Prince John was a refreshing breath of civilization and fiscal government in a time of corruption, bankruptcy, and genocide. Historically, Robin Hood never had anything to do with Prince John. He had to deal with a minor Norman baron who was oppressing his Saxon serfs through the use of the local sheriff, a condition caused by a lack of tax money coming into the duke's coffers. This was blamed on people like Robin, a landed Saxon. The taxes that Robin 'stole' had actually been misappropriated by another (Norman) government official and Robin got the money back into the "rescue Richard" fund, thereby helping the people throw off the "oppresive taxation" of Prince John and endearing Robin, as well as the "honest" Saxaons to the duke. Also of note, Will Scarlet was likely Robin's illegitamate half-brother. But I like the legendary tale better. Less confusion.
makeshiftwings 10-15-05, 01:04 AM	Thanks for all the advice everyone! There are a lot of good ideas in this thread... now I'm actually looking forward to some burglary scenes and consequences rather than dreading them :)
pmurray@bigpond.com 10-15-05, 04:04 AM	A shop that carries everyday junk for adventurers and farmers has magic security systems? Why? Doesn't it cost more for the magic than the stuff it protects? A ring of protection, +1, is 2000 gp base price. That's two thousand smackeroos. If 1 sp = about a dollar, and that's back in the days when US silver dollars had real silver in them, then we are looking at well over 20 kilobucks - a nice deposit on a cheap suburban home. For a +1 ring of prot. To protect a shopful of stuff worth that kind of moolah, alarms, traps, bound elementals - you name it - is a sensible, basic investment.
tuffn00gies 10-15-05, 08:48 AM	IRL, that's mostly true. In D&D, when you can fit something worth 20 houses in your pocket, it's a different dynamic. Even in D&D, something worth 20 houses isn't going to be available to a simple Sleight of Hand check. It's going to be kept locked away in a hidden safe and probably trapped.
rkr1970 10-15-05, 10:38 AM	A ring of protection, +1, is 2000 gp base price. That's two thousand smackeroos. If 1 sp = about a dollar, and that's back in the days when US silver dollars had real silver in them, then we are looking at well over 20 kilobucks - a nice deposit on a cheap suburban home. For a +1 ring of prot. To protect a shopful of stuff worth that kind of moolah, alarms, traps, bound elementals - you name it - is a sensible, basic investment. But he's right because a +1 ring isn't "everyday junk", is it? I couldn't see a shop that has all the PHB stuff spending the cash to magically protect their backpacks and pitons. And a safe for everburning torches and alchemical goodies is more practical than a handful of spells. I can't even imagine having a shop of magic goodies where the little things are just laying around for anyone to pocket, even if the shop has magic, bruisers, and a reputation for revenge. You treat that stuff the way a jewelry shop IRL treats $6000 engagement rings. When it's being examined by the customer, you have one hand on the little button that calls the cops and locks the shop down tight!!
Phist 10-15-05, 04:08 PM	A shop that carries everyday junk for adventurers and farmers has magic security systems? Why? Doesn't it cost more for the magic than the stuff it protects? Maybe not a shop with like the mudane stuff from the PHB, but who steals that stuff anyways? In Eberron, any shop with something worth stealing will have a dwarf of House Kandarak come in and trap the place up with all their dragonmark abilities.
WCH 10-15-05, 04:59 PM	A ring of protection, +1, is 2000 gp base price. That's two thousand smackeroos. If 1 sp = about a dollar, and that's back in the days when US silver dollars had real silver in them, then we are looking at well over 20 kilobucks - a nice deposit on a cheap suburban home. For a +1 ring of prot. To protect a shopful of stuff worth that kind of moolah, alarms, traps, bound elementals - you name it - is a sensible, basic investment. Someone calculated that 1 sp is worth about $4 in today's money, based on the price of flour and other things like that which generally don't change over the years. That puts a +1 ring of protection at $80,000.
rkr1970 10-15-05, 05:41 PM	Maybe not a shop with like the mudane stuff from the PHB, but who steals that stuff anyways? In Eberron, any shop with something worth stealing will have a dwarf of House Kandarak come in and trap the place up with all their dragonmark abilities. Who steals that stuff? You ever run a game at a college? There's always one, and not always the rogue, who wants to get a five-fingered discount at character creation. I feel obliged to make the poor sod's life hell for a while if there actuall try it...
cypherx 10-15-05, 05:49 PM	why not? she is bound to mess up some time. then put her through court, and give her a hefty fine and or jailtime and move on with things. it adds realism. oh, and it is really funny when you keep rubbing in how the shop went out of buisness. "the next week you hear the store owner of the (store character robbed) killed himself because he couldn't pay off debt."
Lincoln Hills 10-17-05, 05:44 PM	...I have a rogue in the party with high Slight of Hand and sneaking skills, whose background includes some petty thievery. Once or twice when the characters have gone to buy items in town, she's asked "Can't I just steal everything?" and I'm not entirely sure what my answer should be... Some superb answers about tightening shop protection and vengeful local guild-boys are given, but I thought I'd point out one other consequence: "Seven gold? You sold us one of these for five last week!" "I know, I know. But local petty theft is way up. I had to pay a cabinet-maker to install new iron-reinforced cases... and you can see I had the windows barred... and I had a priest throw some glyphs on my most valuable inventory..." "Wh - Well, I could go down to Kraddiger's store..." "No good. He's charging eight." "Why?" "He hired two priests."
rkr1970 10-17-05, 05:50 PM	Some superb answers about tightening shop protection and vengeful local guild-boys are given, but I thought I'd point out one other consequence: "Seven gold? You sold us one of these for five last week!" "I know, I know. But local petty theft is way up. I had to pay a cabinet-maker to install new iron-reinforced cases... and you can see I had the windows barred... and I had a priest throw some glyphs on my most valuable inventory..." "Wh - Well, I could go down to Kraddiger's store..." "No good. He's charging eight." "Why?" "He hired two priests." I LOVE IT!!!!! That poor thief is going to be wearing the stolen dagger in a most uncomfortable place once the rest of the party gets ahold of him. :clap:
Talonz 10-17-05, 08:46 PM	A professional will know that the risk/reward ratio is a big factor. Sure you may be able to easily pocket a number of mundane items, but the risk of guild repercussions or actual arrest is likely too much for such loot. And once you target the 'good stuff', now you are talking about a real challenge for the pc, and that's what good side adventures are made off... Explain this to the character, and let them make the decisions. Consequences will follow the more they push their luck.