Can the players handle this? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can the players handle this? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nithendil
11-04-05, 06:33 PM Players from my Sat 12-6 game in Tempe AZ please stay out of this.
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Tomorrow a group of 4-5 3&4th level PCs will be raiding a gnoll fortress. I've listed the inhabitants below:

26 gnolls total
8 in towers, 2 towers, three in each tower with crossbows. 1 level 3 sorcerer in each tower.
10 with maces
5 with longspears
2 level 4 clerics
1 level 6 cleric

The gnolls will likely know the PCs are coming, as the PCs will likely set off the trap. Also, the PCs purchased a necklace of fireballs, which I am assuming if they use it right it will take out the majority of the gnoll forces.

Is this overbearing odds? Too much to throw at the PCs? Should I give them a warning that they may be outmatched, or just let things go their course? I'm not one to change the world to favor the PCs, but at the same time a TPK will be no fun for anyone.
Rhomphaia
11-04-05, 06:41 PM If you ask me, just the gnolls in the towers is asking for a TPK. They are where characters cannot reach them in melee, very likely have cover, an elevated position which makes cover for the PCs harder to find, and magical support and they are armed with weapons that have high damage and one hell of a range increment.

Even if these gnolls do not take them out, it will take so long to deal with them, even with a Necklace of Fireballs, that the rest of the gnolls will have been alerted and will start preparing and positioning themselves. And this is not to mention the clerics that are inside as well, each of which individually is a decent challenge for the group...and if you bunch the clerics together...yeah.

To me, unless the PCs are very clever and/or lucky, this whole scenario is leading into a TPK, or very close to it (characters dying), especially if the gnolls already know they are coming.

My advice to you is this. Sure gnolls know how to fight, but they aren't exactly the most organized fighting force. Have them act as chaotic creatures would. They would not be as likely to coordinate attacks against single characters, they would attack the characters in waves, and generally hope that sheer force of numbers would help them.

My suggestion for the gnoll tactics would be this.

The towers. Unless the gnolls know they are going to be attacked, have a single gnoll with a crossbow in each tower and one (maybe both) have a sorcerer. Once the alarm sounds, then all the gnolls with crossbows would be scrambling up the ladders, but not likely until then. This gives the PCs time to try and find cover or otherwise neutralize the towers before the full artillery can be brought to bear.

The troops. The first wave is likely to be disorganized and goes in for a full rush against the PCs. Have two successive waves of gnolls, each led by the level four clerics. These will be a little better organized and capable due to direction and spells from the clerics.

Finally, the leader is likely to be either hiding off somewhere or gathering his two or three bodyguards for a last stand against the PCs. This should be the climactic encounter and the most difficult. Still, give the PCs a chance to win or run away somehow.
Thynass
11-04-05, 06:53 PM I don't believe in overwhelming odds. No such thing. But even so, what you have proposed seems quite tough. I reckon it's possible, but would require exceptional guile from the PCs. And even then, they're gonna have a hard time taking down a 6th level cleric when they themselves are 3rd-4th level. Why are they adventuring there. Is this just a random adventure, or have they chosen to go there. If it is the first, change it. If it is the latter, I would leave it. You shouldn't change the game world for the PCs, I agree, and given the odds presently, I think the PCs will work out pretty swiftly they're not going to get far. Which is a good thing. I think it's a good idea to remind characters of their mortality every now and again. But you don't have to do that through killing them. Yeah, it's too much, basically. But if it was the PCs choice to go there, that's fine. Don't give them a warning; let them figure it out for themselves. It will teach them valuble lessons like subtlety and scouting and tactics. I'm not saying that your PCs don't have these already, but if they don't, they'll be sure to learn fast. Or die.
Good Agnostic
11-04-05, 07:03 PM Gnolls in a fortress are going to be organized. They are going to have been trained for exactly this scenario. A frontal assault would most probably lead to a TPK. The sane option is some kind of quiet raid where the only blasting is at the very end when they punch out after they have accomplished whatever it is they went in for/to do.
WolfHati
11-04-05, 09:43 PM Unless you play the gnolls as intentionally running out to get themselves killed, then that should quite thoroughly kill off your players. Of course anyone who wants to frontally assault a fortified position containing more than a handful of gnolls at level 3 or 4 is rather daft.

So... it really depends on how intelligent your players are and what you want to happen in this battle. You should definitely warn them that they are probably going to be way outmatched in this battle if you keep it as is. If you just want a bit of a tough fight for the PCs, you probably want to tone down the encounter by a factor of two or so. On the other hand if you want to force your people to think creatively and figure out a smarter way to overcome the gnolls than a suicide charge, then maybe keep it.

EDIT: Just so you know, that's probably a CR 10 encounter there if I calculated it right. Which pretty much means that all things being equal everyone will die in a party that is level 4 at most. While in the game I'm currently playing, my party just barely survived such an enounter, even with high stats and Eberron's action point system, and a ridiculous quantity of sheer luck. I'm pretty sure the odds were somewhere around 100 to 1 of us making it out alive. The only person left conscious at the end was a cleric with 4 hp. So that's probably the best the party can hope for if they try and do it straight combatwise.
Rodayin
11-04-05, 10:44 PM Can the players handle this?

Probably not.
Nithendil
11-05-05, 12:49 AM Good points everyone and thank you.

However, while I normally would think this to be way overpowered, they did smartly purchase a necklace of fireballs type II, which gives them 1 6d6 fireball and a few smaller ones.

Most of the forces (the 10 with maces, 5 with longspears, and two level 4 clerics) will be near the central gate after the alarm goes off. If the PCs can manage to scout ahead after the alarm goes off, and throw the pearls at these forces, it is likely to eliminate all if not most of them.

So effectively this leaves the two towers and the level 6 cleric (who will be hiding in the temple). Perhaps I'm letting too much fall on one device, that the PCs may not even use?

Perhaps even the towers will be too tough. As for some background, the PC's hometown was attacked by a small army sent from this gnoll fortress. The PCs eliminated this army and through interrogation of prisoners learned of this gnoll fortress. If they are smart, they will wait for reinforcements, but I believe they wish to leave right away.

I believe this is my fault, as I have created such hatred for this gnoll fort (they are responsible for quite alot of the PC's plight) that I believe the players feel like they have no other choice (as otherwise they are sitting ducks to further gnoll attacks).
Thynass
11-05-05, 10:18 AM I believe this is my fault, as I have created such hatred for this gnoll fort (they are responsible for quite alot of the PC's plight) that I believe the players feel like they have no other choice (as otherwise they are sitting ducks to further gnoll attacks).

This is good. It shows good role-playing from the players and good DMing. It's just a shame that good role-playing tend to lead to dead PCs. But I wouldn't blame yourself. After all, no matter what their hatred for gnolls, if they are being killed, they are going to run away (if they can), if for no other reason than to come back with more people and have their revenge.

One quick question, though: I said the PCs are role-playing well; they couldn't also be metagaming, and are thinking that just because they want to go off and destroy the gnoll stronghold you will make it possible for them to do. Make it clear to them (though indirectly) that adventures will not be tailored to the PCs; if they go charging off to the gnoll stronghold it will be the same regardless of their level.
kristof1
11-08-05, 11:51 AM I play in Nithendil's game, and we did survive.

Now, the necklace of fireballs (type II) was a wash: no fireball over 16 damage... and that was the 6d6. The last 2d6 fireballs were saved for the BBEG, and they only did 4 damage apiece.

Anyway, we approached the fort using hide and move silently, and myself (rogue) and the barbarian (Flogg) made it within 40 ft. of one of the towers before the gnolls opened up on the fighter, wizard and cleric with a volley of arrows. When this happened, myself and Flogg drank our potions of Spiderclimb and ran up that tower.

Flogg, with his superior speed reached the top of the tower first and started swinging (he was using a reach weapon as his Orc Double-Axe was destroyed earlier in the session) while I proceeded past the group of gnolls and started "shelling" the courtyard with fireballs from the necklace. This is where the 6d6 fireball became a 16 damage attack. 7 or 8 gnolls drop from the first fireball, and the rest scatter.

We mop up the rest of the foes atop the tower due to the timely arrival of the fighter and the cleric (they had to wait for the wizard to cast spiderclimb on them). When the wizard got up the tower, we go down the other side of tower into the courtyard, setting off a sonic trap (I wasn't searching).

Some of the gnolls that scattered entered into the tower we had just left. When they heard the sonic trap go off, one of the spell casters threw a sound burst at us, stunning the wizard. Well, Angelica, the fighter and Flogg rush into the room after Cyrith, the cleric, casts sound burst at the open doorway. When they enter the tower, 5 of 9 gnolls have dropped from the damage (they were caught in the splash of the second fireball I threw earlier). We fight for a little while, then some sort of fear effect is cast on Angelica, so she spends the next 6 rounds running away and running back. In that time, we kill off the rest of the gnolls.

We heal up and head off towards the massive temple in the middle of the fort. We enter and find the BBEG flanked by two massive gnolls in platemail (I think it was platemail). After a long and hard fought battle (emphasis on LONG) we end up taking down the evil cleric, and looting the fort. I think that we may be burning it in the next session.

Only two of the party members really suffered serious detrimental affects: Flogg, prior to the final battle had his orc double axe dissolved. In the final battle, he was struck permanently blind. Angelica also lost a weapon in the same encounter as Flogg, and was cursed by the BBEG. Now we have a Lycanthrope Fighter that lost her flail and suffers -4 to many things.

But we survived, though not through lack of trying on Nithendil's part.
wonlee76
11-08-05, 12:01 PM If you want to make the encounter a bit easier, 1/2 the number of gnolls. 1/2 of the gnolls are resting/sleeping/eating and are unprepared or not 100% prepared for an assault on the fortress. This will buy your group a few rounds to deal with the 1/2 that is prepared or on guard duty. Spreading out these numbers still makes the encounter tough (necklace of fireballs becomes less effective due to the gnolls being more spread out) but less likely of a TPK if the group's first few rounds of combat efficiently knocks out a good chunk of the enemy.
harlan
11-08-05, 12:21 PM Bravo to kristof1 and the rest of your group! Well played!

And good job, Nithendil, for trusting that your players can rise to the challenge. They will remember this encounter for the rest of their careers.
harlan
11-08-05, 12:25 PM Kristof1: I have a suggestion for the conquered fort: claim it as your own, if you don't already have a base of operations, or other place to call your own.
Paradisio
11-08-05, 03:05 PM It sounds difficult (I probably wouldn't face my party of level 7s with it) but if the party is tactical, I really don't see it being too difficult unless they alert the entire compound to their location. But then again, my party doesn't really use tactics

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nithendil 11-04-05, 06:33 PM	Players from my Sat 12-6 game in Tempe AZ please stay out of this. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Tomorrow a group of 4-5 3&4th level PCs will be raiding a gnoll fortress. I've listed the inhabitants below: 26 gnolls total 8 in towers, 2 towers, three in each tower with crossbows. 1 level 3 sorcerer in each tower. 10 with maces 5 with longspears 2 level 4 clerics 1 level 6 cleric The gnolls will likely know the PCs are coming, as the PCs will likely set off the trap. Also, the PCs purchased a necklace of fireballs, which I am assuming if they use it right it will take out the majority of the gnoll forces. Is this overbearing odds? Too much to throw at the PCs? Should I give them a warning that they may be outmatched, or just let things go their course? I'm not one to change the world to favor the PCs, but at the same time a TPK will be no fun for anyone.
Rhomphaia 11-04-05, 06:41 PM	If you ask me, just the gnolls in the towers is asking for a TPK. They are where characters cannot reach them in melee, very likely have cover, an elevated position which makes cover for the PCs harder to find, and magical support and they are armed with weapons that have high damage and one hell of a range increment. Even if these gnolls do not take them out, it will take so long to deal with them, even with a Necklace of Fireballs, that the rest of the gnolls will have been alerted and will start preparing and positioning themselves. And this is not to mention the clerics that are inside as well, each of which individually is a decent challenge for the group...and if you bunch the clerics together...yeah. To me, unless the PCs are very clever and/or lucky, this whole scenario is leading into a TPK, or very close to it (characters dying), especially if the gnolls already know they are coming. My advice to you is this. Sure gnolls know how to fight, but they aren't exactly the most organized fighting force. Have them act as chaotic creatures would. They would not be as likely to coordinate attacks against single characters, they would attack the characters in waves, and generally hope that sheer force of numbers would help them. My suggestion for the gnoll tactics would be this. The towers. Unless the gnolls know they are going to be attacked, have a single gnoll with a crossbow in each tower and one (maybe both) have a sorcerer. Once the alarm sounds, then all the gnolls with crossbows would be scrambling up the ladders, but not likely until then. This gives the PCs time to try and find cover or otherwise neutralize the towers before the full artillery can be brought to bear. The troops. The first wave is likely to be disorganized and goes in for a full rush against the PCs. Have two successive waves of gnolls, each led by the level four clerics. These will be a little better organized and capable due to direction and spells from the clerics. Finally, the leader is likely to be either hiding off somewhere or gathering his two or three bodyguards for a last stand against the PCs. This should be the climactic encounter and the most difficult. Still, give the PCs a chance to win or run away somehow.
Thynass 11-04-05, 06:53 PM	I don't believe in overwhelming odds. No such thing. But even so, what you have proposed seems quite tough. I reckon it's possible, but would require exceptional guile from the PCs. And even then, they're gonna have a hard time taking down a 6th level cleric when they themselves are 3rd-4th level. Why are they adventuring there. Is this just a random adventure, or have they chosen to go there. If it is the first, change it. If it is the latter, I would leave it. You shouldn't change the game world for the PCs, I agree, and given the odds presently, I think the PCs will work out pretty swiftly they're not going to get far. Which is a good thing. I think it's a good idea to remind characters of their mortality every now and again. But you don't have to do that through killing them. Yeah, it's too much, basically. But if it was the PCs choice to go there, that's fine. Don't give them a warning; let them figure it out for themselves. It will teach them valuble lessons like subtlety and scouting and tactics. I'm not saying that your PCs don't have these already, but if they don't, they'll be sure to learn fast. Or die.
Good Agnostic 11-04-05, 07:03 PM	Gnolls in a fortress are going to be organized. They are going to have been trained for exactly this scenario. A frontal assault would most probably lead to a TPK. The sane option is some kind of quiet raid where the only blasting is at the very end when they punch out after they have accomplished whatever it is they went in for/to do.
WolfHati 11-04-05, 09:43 PM	Unless you play the gnolls as intentionally running out to get themselves killed, then that should quite thoroughly kill off your players. Of course anyone who wants to frontally assault a fortified position containing more than a handful of gnolls at level 3 or 4 is rather daft. So... it really depends on how intelligent your players are and what you want to happen in this battle. You should definitely warn them that they are probably going to be way outmatched in this battle if you keep it as is. If you just want a bit of a tough fight for the PCs, you probably want to tone down the encounter by a factor of two or so. On the other hand if you want to force your people to think creatively and figure out a smarter way to overcome the gnolls than a suicide charge, then maybe keep it. EDIT: Just so you know, that's probably a CR 10 encounter there if I calculated it right. Which pretty much means that all things being equal everyone will die in a party that is level 4 at most. While in the game I'm currently playing, my party just barely survived such an enounter, even with high stats and Eberron's action point system, and a ridiculous quantity of sheer luck. I'm pretty sure the odds were somewhere around 100 to 1 of us making it out alive. The only person left conscious at the end was a cleric with 4 hp. So that's probably the best the party can hope for if they try and do it straight combatwise.
Rodayin 11-04-05, 10:44 PM	Can the players handle this? Probably not.
Nithendil 11-05-05, 12:49 AM	Good points everyone and thank you. However, while I normally would think this to be way overpowered, they did smartly purchase a necklace of fireballs type II, which gives them 1 6d6 fireball and a few smaller ones. Most of the forces (the 10 with maces, 5 with longspears, and two level 4 clerics) will be near the central gate after the alarm goes off. If the PCs can manage to scout ahead after the alarm goes off, and throw the pearls at these forces, it is likely to eliminate all if not most of them. So effectively this leaves the two towers and the level 6 cleric (who will be hiding in the temple). Perhaps I'm letting too much fall on one device, that the PCs may not even use? Perhaps even the towers will be too tough. As for some background, the PC's hometown was attacked by a small army sent from this gnoll fortress. The PCs eliminated this army and through interrogation of prisoners learned of this gnoll fortress. If they are smart, they will wait for reinforcements, but I believe they wish to leave right away. I believe this is my fault, as I have created such hatred for this gnoll fort (they are responsible for quite alot of the PC's plight) that I believe the players feel like they have no other choice (as otherwise they are sitting ducks to further gnoll attacks).
Thynass 11-05-05, 10:18 AM	I believe this is my fault, as I have created such hatred for this gnoll fort (they are responsible for quite alot of the PC's plight) that I believe the players feel like they have no other choice (as otherwise they are sitting ducks to further gnoll attacks). This is good. It shows good role-playing from the players and good DMing. It's just a shame that good role-playing tend to lead to dead PCs. But I wouldn't blame yourself. After all, no matter what their hatred for gnolls, if they are being killed, they are going to run away (if they can), if for no other reason than to come back with more people and have their revenge. One quick question, though: I said the PCs are role-playing well; they couldn't also be metagaming, and are thinking that just because they want to go off and destroy the gnoll stronghold you will make it possible for them to do. Make it clear to them (though indirectly) that adventures will not be tailored to the PCs; if they go charging off to the gnoll stronghold it will be the same regardless of their level.
kristof1 11-08-05, 11:51 AM	I play in Nithendil's game, and we did survive. Now, the necklace of fireballs (type II) was a wash: no fireball over 16 damage... and that was the 6d6. The last 2d6 fireballs were saved for the BBEG, and they only did 4 damage apiece. Anyway, we approached the fort using hide and move silently, and myself (rogue) and the barbarian (Flogg) made it within 40 ft. of one of the towers before the gnolls opened up on the fighter, wizard and cleric with a volley of arrows. When this happened, myself and Flogg drank our potions of Spiderclimb and ran up that tower. Flogg, with his superior speed reached the top of the tower first and started swinging (he was using a reach weapon as his Orc Double-Axe was destroyed earlier in the session) while I proceeded past the group of gnolls and started "shelling" the courtyard with fireballs from the necklace. This is where the 6d6 fireball became a 16 damage attack. 7 or 8 gnolls drop from the first fireball, and the rest scatter. We mop up the rest of the foes atop the tower due to the timely arrival of the fighter and the cleric (they had to wait for the wizard to cast spiderclimb on them). When the wizard got up the tower, we go down the other side of tower into the courtyard, setting off a sonic trap (I wasn't searching). Some of the gnolls that scattered entered into the tower we had just left. When they heard the sonic trap go off, one of the spell casters threw a sound burst at us, stunning the wizard. Well, Angelica, the fighter and Flogg rush into the room after Cyrith, the cleric, casts sound burst at the open doorway. When they enter the tower, 5 of 9 gnolls have dropped from the damage (they were caught in the splash of the second fireball I threw earlier). We fight for a little while, then some sort of fear effect is cast on Angelica, so she spends the next 6 rounds running away and running back. In that time, we kill off the rest of the gnolls. We heal up and head off towards the massive temple in the middle of the fort. We enter and find the BBEG flanked by two massive gnolls in platemail (I think it was platemail). After a long and hard fought battle (emphasis on LONG) we end up taking down the evil cleric, and looting the fort. I think that we may be burning it in the next session. Only two of the party members really suffered serious detrimental affects: Flogg, prior to the final battle had his orc double axe dissolved. In the final battle, he was struck permanently blind. Angelica also lost a weapon in the same encounter as Flogg, and was cursed by the BBEG. Now we have a Lycanthrope Fighter that lost her flail and suffers -4 to many things. But we survived, though not through lack of trying on Nithendil's part.
wonlee76 11-08-05, 12:01 PM	If you want to make the encounter a bit easier, 1/2 the number of gnolls. 1/2 of the gnolls are resting/sleeping/eating and are unprepared or not 100% prepared for an assault on the fortress. This will buy your group a few rounds to deal with the 1/2 that is prepared or on guard duty. Spreading out these numbers still makes the encounter tough (necklace of fireballs becomes less effective due to the gnolls being more spread out) but less likely of a TPK if the group's first few rounds of combat efficiently knocks out a good chunk of the enemy.
harlan 11-08-05, 12:21 PM	Bravo to kristof1 and the rest of your group! Well played! And good job, Nithendil, for trusting that your players can rise to the challenge. They will remember this encounter for the rest of their careers.
harlan 11-08-05, 12:25 PM	Kristof1: I have a suggestion for the conquered fort: claim it as your own, if you don't already have a base of operations, or other place to call your own.
Paradisio 11-08-05, 03:05 PM	It sounds difficult (I probably wouldn't face my party of level 7s with it) but if the party is tactical, I really don't see it being too difficult unless they alert the entire compound to their location. But then again, my party doesn't really use tactics