Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Prince_of_Parkness 09-27-07, 06:59 PM	Following scenrio: 6th level Pcs are fighting a battle, adding the Red Guard against the Black Fang Corpse. They are upfront next to the Stonefall Drop, killing off some duel wielding evil rangers with the help of Fracna, Slayer of Dead Binders, the battle comander 11th lv fighter. They're doing well and then a young wizard appearse. He turns to the PCs: "Watch and learn the power of that who you oppose. Even I, a lowly underling of the almightly Gate Crosser, can take control of your general with ease," "I will opose you as long as I live!" shouts Frecna "Then it is long overdue that you stop," replies the young man, droping a black feather to the ground, with dissapearse in midfall. He then snaps his fingers. Fracna stares at his hands in disbelief. The skin is turning a deathly green before his eyes. "The curse is starting to surface now that I'm near, and I really cnt be bothered to keep it hidden any longer. Your an undead Fracna. You have been for quite some time. Notice how now that i no longer try to hide the fact, your sense of touch is draining? Remeber the time you collapsed in the mountains and was knocked unconsios? That was a lie. You died and I raised you, hiding your new life. I was wondering wether your God would strike you down, but he didn't. It seems that the fact that you were unaware saved you from falling from grace. I wonder what he wants you to do now though? Now that you know, what are you suposed to do? Espicially since that i created you, I control you," Fracna roars in rage and runs towards Stonefall drop, throwing himself into the raging waters below. The PCs (i persume) run attacking the wizard, who only smiles. "Do what you want to me. I have killed your general, and you will soon follow him. I await my reward in heavan," he smirks as he goes down to the fighters blade What actually happened: Thw wizard was a level 1 rouge/3 illusionist. He cast a siliencedsilent image on Fracna's hand, making it look like it was that of a zombie, then bluffed (maxed out class skill with skill focus). In his fear of becoming a slave to what he has sworn to fight, he committed suice. Firstly, is that legal according to the core rules? If not why? Assuming it is, whats are the chances of Fracna seeing through this? He cnt use spellcraft, but he gets a will save. However, his modifier is only +3, so i doubt he'll make it. Then theres the sense motive check. How unbelievable is this bluff? What bonus does Fracna get against it? Is there anyother chance Fracna has to resist it? I understand that this plan might not work out so well, as the PCs may be able to help Fracna, but assumbing they dont manage and Fracna fails his will save and sense motive check and commits suicide, how would my PC's react to this? The Gate Crosser, the BBEG, is a master of using spells, mostly illusions resourfully. I want to show the PCs how effective his methods can be, demonstrated by this student of his. Will it have this affect, or will it just be stupid that Fracna chooses to commit suicide? If so why?
TwiddleStootch 09-27-07, 07:09 PM	Hmm, an interesting idea, but... Figment A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. (It is not a personalized mental impression.) Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. Emphasis mine. And Silent Image is a Figment., so it doesn't work within the rules. However, if it did, I would say the Wizard would need a Concentration or Spellcraft check to successfully keep the image following the General's hands to make it seem real.
Kaligrad 09-27-07, 07:20 PM	All NPC's are under your direct control. If you want to create a cinematic experience between two NPC's, don't bother rolling for either. If you plan something that doesn't directly involve the PC's, then the dice don't matter. It all goes according to plan. Now, this doesn't mean that the PC's couldn't screw things up if they wanted to. In fact, don't change the wizard's build at all, in case they interfere. But you get to kill off all the NPC's you want, and none of them get any saves if it would change the outcome you want. As for the PC's reaction, I have no idea. All you've said is that they are allies; any reaction would be based on how fond each player is of that character. Also, remember that no one gets a save against an illusion unless they have reason to believe it's fake, or if they interact with the illusion. Since the wizard is announcing his intentions out loud in the presence of the PC's, let them have sense motive checks if they ask for them, not just the paladin. Roll for them at a -5 if they seem to believe it.
kardock 09-28-07, 11:15 AM	All NPC's are under your direct control. If you want to create a cinematic experience between two NPC's, don't bother rolling for either. If you plan something that doesn't directly involve the PC's, then the dice don't matter. It all goes according to plan. Now, this doesn't mean that the PC's couldn't screw things up if they wanted to. In fact, don't change the wizard's build at all, in case they interfere. But you get to kill off all the NPC's you want, and none of them get any saves if it would change the outcome you want. oh crap this is such a good advice! i will definitly keep this in mind for my game. i never saw it that way but damn i like your thinking! thanks for sharing!
Cifer 09-28-07, 12:02 PM	As Twiddle already commented, it doesn't work with a silent image. Next problem is that the paladin would quite probably have enough ranks in Knowledge (Religion) to know something about undead - specifically, how it would feel to be one. Finally, Fracna can easily disprove the illusion: he only needs to touch the skin to feel it still being warm and fleshy. That would make him find out that something's wrong. Oh, and the caster would need to do more than silence the spell. He's still gesticulating and anyone watching him would get a spellcraft check in order to grasp exactly what he's casting.
infideli 09-28-07, 12:42 PM	Very cool scenario! You can make anything happen betwen NPCs, but I am one who also likes to make sure the events are within the possibility of game rules. If the BBEG has a powerful reputation, the PCs/Players might believe the "curse" and not bother to make a spellcraft check. The General can fail the save automatically just to make the plot move along. And to avoid the "Silent Image can't do that" argument... the 1st level spell is "Minor Seaming". It is a unique spell that makes one object or creature SEEM different. Will to negate the spell, will to disbelieve, bonuses to disbelieve if interacted with. Duration 1 round/level but it ends if the caster leaves the medium range. Remember that is is MAGIC we are dealing with, and if anything, it should not be limited to what's been printed. The PHB has a tiny fraction of spells from the multitudes, and only shows an example of what is possible and what the relative power evel of spells should be. Also, if the target believes he is undead, the people watching him should be more inclined to believe it is true. G
Gargs454 09-28-07, 12:44 PM	Certainly you can create any cinematic experience you want, but as Cifer stated, you might end up with annoyed players, not PCs, but players. Certainly, if a PC wizard or cleric sees the NPC gesticulating, he would be within his right to ask for a Spellcraft check. If you don't allow it, then the player will be annoyed. If you do allow it and he fails, then no big deal. If you allow it and he succeeds then more problems arise. PC: He's casting an illusion. Illusionist: See how your skin turns green. Frecna: Ack! Me skin be turning green. PC: No its not, it's just an illusion! Illusionist: I raised you from the dead. You are my slave! You are a zombie. PC: No you aren't its an illusion! Frecna: Egad, I'm a zombie! PC Cleric: I make a knowledge religion check to see if I know whether or not zombies can think for themselves. (succeeds) PC Cleric: Frecna you not a zombie, you can think for yourself and zombies can't do that! PC 1: ITS AN ILLUSION. Frecna: I must now jump off the cliff. Party: Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?! So yes, you could make the cinematic experience, but you're better off doing it in another manner as the players will be annoyed at seeing it done like this. Perhaps give the Illusionist an minor artifact that creates a similar effect. The artifact (belonging to the BBEG of course) is capable of creating the disired effect but might also be capable of fooling the PC's. The only problem is you have to come up with a way of either a) having the illusionist escape -- perhaps the artifact can also teleport the wielder which is how the illusionist appears in the first place or b) having the artifact escape assuming you do not want it to come into the possession of the PCs.
Terrainosaur 09-28-07, 01:05 PM	When I asked my players what they don't like in D&D, two immediately said "Box text." I had to have them explain, but it's basically what you're considering. They don't like getting told what's happening and being powerless to stop it just because the DM wants to read some prepared text. If the PCs are near enough to see this, they'll want to take actions. You could do this as a cut-scene though, describing to them something that happened in another area of the battle, something they can't see.
infideli 09-28-07, 01:13 PM	Even if you want the NPC to die, I agree that there should be a chance for the PCs to chaneg things. I definitely don't recommend reading a page and not allowing them to act. A GREAT suggestion is to empower the Wizard, but not with an artifact, but maybe just a higher-level scroll from his master. Instead of a 1st level illusion, maybe it is a 5th level scroll from a 13th level specialist? Maybe it is a gem that he crushed to unleash the magic? With a higher spell, the DC would be higher and the chance to dispel would be lower. Also even if the PCs see the spell and after hearing the text study it for a round to determineit is an illusion... they could roll initiative to see who acts first. They might charge the wizard, but the victim could believe the spell and jump anyway. G
MrCustomer 09-28-07, 01:21 PM	How beleivable is this? It's too unbeleiveable to be done by so low a caster and with those spells. Too many things would go wrong, as people are pointing out. It would be better to give the wizard a mysterious evil artifact of deception that creates this effect. The Amulet of "worst nightmare come true" which creates an illusion of the victim's worse possible nightmare and drives them to commit suicide rather then face it. The amulet is more powerful then the caster, he got it from some evil shrine. The benifit here is that the illusionist can try this trick in a different form later on the PCs, however they will know it was a trick and thus will get a save bonus to see through his tricks. This makes for a good plot rather then abusing the rules to make it work anyways for the NPCs.
Phrennzy 09-28-07, 01:31 PM	The DC for Silent Image is going to be 10 + 1 (spell level) + 4 (Ability modifier) at most = 15. With a +3, he succeeds on a 12 or better, so not bad odds. The 'afflicted' paladin is going to see his skin turn green and rotted. It's going to feel fine. He will feel fine. In a world of magic, and when he is fighting a foe "The Gate Crosser, the BBEG, is a master of using spells, mostly illusions resourfully" Fracas is going to suspect that it's an illusion. While the sudden shift in his skin's appearance may startle him, he still feels fine. Doubtful that he would trust the word of a villain who works for a villain who is the master of illusions. Especially in a world where Raise Dead is possible. No suicide.
Cantankerous 09-28-07, 01:49 PM	I like the original question and it has been nixed already, and correctly. While the NPCs are yours, on both sides of a fight, it is VITAL to a good game that you remain consistent. If when your NPC Wizard casts a spell in a certain way and it works in such and such a manner, it had DAMNED WELL BETTER work the same way when a PC does likewise. To do otherwise is one of the quickest ways out there to create distrust with your Players. Isshia
Prince_of_Parkness 09-29-07, 03:48 AM	3. The DC for Silent Image is going to be 10 + 1 (spell level) + 4 (Ability modifier) at most = 15. With a +3, he succeeds on a 12 or better, so not bad odds. 2. The 'afflicted' paladin is going to see his skin turn green and rotted. It's going to feel fine. He will feel fine. In a world of magic, and when he is fighting a foe "The Gate Crosser, the BBEG, is a master of using spells, mostly illusions resourfully" Fracas is going to suspect that it's an illusion. 1. Doubtful that he would trust the word of a villain who works for a villain . 1. He's also a specialist. Isnt that +1 to the DC? 2. Why does everyone keep calling Fracna a Paladin? Hes a fighter, so no religion checks. And thats why the bluff check is there. 3. Neither the PCs or Fracna knows that the Gate Crosser is a master of using spells resourfully at this point. Not that this means much. Could a second level illusion include a textore sens aswell?
Prince_of_Parkness 09-29-07, 03:49 AM	It would be better to give the wizard a mysterious evil artifact of deception that creates this effect. The Amulet of "worst nightmare come true" which creates an illusion of the victim's worse possible nightmare and drives them to commit suicide rather then face it. The amulet is more powerful then the caster, he got it from some evil shrine. Id really like to aviod doing that. Thanks for the suggestion though
Prince_of_Parkness 09-29-07, 03:52 AM	When I asked my players what they don't like in D&D, two immediately said "Box text." I had to have them explain, but it's basically what you're considering. They don't like getting told what's happening and being powerless to stop it just because the DM wants to read some prepared text. If the PCs are near enough to see this, they'll want to take actions. You could do this as a cut-scene though, describing to them something that happened in another area of the battle, something they can't see. I said i kno the PCs may get involved and change things. This is assuming they dont manage to. If they do manage than Fracna lives and their will be another attempt on his life.
Prince_of_Parkness 09-29-07, 03:56 AM	Ok so what about this: Rouge/illusionist casts silent image, long enough for Fracna to notice it, then immidiatly dispels it, saying the curse is becoming harder to conceal now that its creator is here. That at least removes the problem of the spells lack of texture sense
Rood_Inverse 09-30-07, 10:11 AM	Why bother making it an illusion at all? Just because his master is the Master of Illusion... It doesn't mean that's the only spell set he has. Why not a Contagion variant, where the disease inflicted is a withering one, that causes flesh to turn necrotic and decay? Much more believable to your claim that someone's a zombie when their flesh starts rotting off their bones. My other suggestion, since others have used the word... "Cinematics." What not have an Inflict spell, or one that inflicts, say, a single negative level, manifest as mangled, twisted and necrotic flesh on the opponent's hand? (And the spell can manifest differently every time, depending on the caster, depending on how he somatically is targeting the spell - the hand, in this case.) It would also give the PC a chance to restore the damage, being actively involved even in the cut scene. Or maybe I've just missed the boat entirely. Does it have to be an illusion? EDIT: My mistake. You said rogue/illusionist. Do the players know this? You'd be within your rights to retcon (once), to make this BBEG fit closer mechanically to the effects you want. There might be a better build for this guy?
CCS 09-30-07, 01:19 PM	Assuming that you play your NPCs as intelligent as their stats warrent, I doubt that your Fracna would fall for this trick. Sure, there's spells out there that might make the transformation seem believable should he fail his save. And the PCs might also believe them. But then the mage spins a completely unbelievable tale. Wich may indeed be fine RP wise given that he's only 1st level. Afterall, if Fracna were a zombie, or any other type of undead, there's all sorts of things that would have alerted him to his altered state well before this. For example: The fact that he's been going to the bathroom.... The fact that he sweats..... The fact that healing magic works on him..... Ok, fine. It's magic. MAYBE the BBEG has created & cast some really complex spell that does turn the fallen into the undead yet creates a complete & perfect simulation of life able to fool victem & everyone else (including dieties). But as a player I'd imedietly call ******** - regardless of what type of ranks in spellcraft etc I had. Add to the fact that you've just gone to lengths of describing the falling feather in your cut scene. IC, as an adventurer who travels in the company of casters, I KNOW somethings up. As a player I assume that you WANT me to know this because DID describe it to me. As the DM you're my eyes & ears - I only see/hear what you want me to. So when you specifically mention small details like that falling feather I notice.... Yet another reason I'd call BS. As for how we'd react? I don't know how your group plays, but mine would do two things asap. 1) if needed, restrain/delay our suicidal friend. 2) launch a highly offensive assault upon the newly appearing mage. Odds are we wouldn't even wait for him/you to finish monolouging. He appears, affects our ally, we assume he's high enough level to be an actual threat, he gets a spread of arrows, a few spells, and whatever the best melee assault we can muster is given our position. As he's not very high lv, the elves arrows & rediculouse inititive will likely finish him before the casters get their spells off. Then the melee types would spend a moment seperating his head from his body - literly. Next round we continue with the battle where we left off.... Chances are we'll never learn what he was going on about. And then his spell effect ends/drops.