Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gemmalah 03-06-06, 07:39 AM	I'm sorry this may be a long rant, I need to get a few things off my chest and possibly gain advice from others. I have a friend who had heard me talk about D+D and read my monster manual and was really interested in playing, so i decided to make a short explore the area and fight a few monsters campaign to be a one off. Just so he knows what i'm on about. I allowed half dragons and half celestials, because I usually have level one chars where the campaign never lasts long enough to level up and wanted to play with some big monsters for a change. Anyway in game the problems were that i introduced an artifact (collect all of them together and they have lots of power individually they do mundane things like glow if its going to rain the next day ect...) I introduced one that glows when the town is in danger (as an introduction to the campaign target to save the rest which have been stolen) One of the players kept saying, 'its glowing its glowing, it glows every time we mention the Gnoll forest' (an area in my game) But it wan't i corrected him every time but in the end he convinced everyone else it was glowing and set them out on a quest to search for nothing because the town wasn't in danger (at that point in the story, it was to glow later as a plot point) I'm worried now they won't take it seriously when it really does glow. I mean I have been playing for two years and four of the players where 10 years experience and 2 where complete newbies. The most disruptive ones were the experienced ones. Being a less experienced DM i used tricks such as assigning someone else to work out experience points to speed the game along. And to work out CR they guy got it wrong so the buck got passed to me and suddenly i was to blame for too easy battles (which i beefed up a bit on the fly) Also The players said the like to fight alot, so i put in lots of monsters, but i considered that most random monsters would not just attack a group of half dragons and celestials just to be cannon fodder. So the pcs would have to go to them eg: they notice a large group of kobolds following them. But they were so cautious and didn't fight anything much, spent most of the adventure gathering knowleage (which i didn't include much of because they wanted lots of fights) Then at the end told me that there needs to be more fights. First of all nobody warned me that half celestails can fly so they missed most of the battles anyway, we had a meeting to discuss characters and as far as i knew then only one of the chars could fly (clumsily) so i thought that maybe they would be on the ground most of the time. Out of game problems are more probably my own paranoia. I notice that these guys don't seem to take any interest in me outside of D+D (one of them is really close friend so thats how they know me.) I'm into the same music (sometimes go to the same club), even got entered into their pool team. (not as if they'd let me play though) I'm getting a suspision that in their eyes i'm only a DM and not a person. I mean I set a target of 4 people to play (so it would be quicker getting into the story) but 6 people turn up. What am I to do kick out two of them not that i knew who they were at all. I probably wouldn't be doing this with them if they wern't the only avaibable party (exept for one that is very difficult to play with) and it wasn't the only real social activity i get to do. I am a student at university so i work alot. Also a point of arguement, as far as i know magic missile does not need a roll to hit because its automatic but with 4 people (the experienced players) ganging up on me what am i to do? I ended up rolling one anyway because the game had ground to a halt because of it, with said player refusing to take 2 damage yes 2 he had an ac of 25 so its the least he could do. (and it was in the middle of a refereed tourniment in which he would be healed after the battle anyway) OH and do all spells need a consentartion (sorry spelling) check? I didn't think they did unless its specified or the person casting is being attacked. Cos this really mucked up my battle plans making them too easy again. Sorry for longness of post thank you for reading i feel much better now. been talked into doing it again, before we start i will bring up all of these issues and say if these things happen again I will leave and not come back!
astute1 03-06-06, 08:33 AM	But it wan't i corrected him every time but in the end he convinced everyone else it was glowing and set them out on a quest to search for nothing because the town wasn't in danger (at that point in the story, it was to glow later as a plot point) I'm worried now they won't take it seriously when it really does glow. Let them figure it out on their own. After the town gets sacked by monsters while they're away on a wild goose chase, they'll probably smarten up a bit. And to work out CR they guy got it wrong so the buck got passed to me and suddenly i was to blame for too easy battles (which i beefed up a bit on the fly) Fixing stuff on the fly is one of the hallmark skills of a good DM. It's always going to happen, so try to get used to it. The players said the like to fight alot, so i put in lots of monsters, but i considered that most random monsters would not just attack a group of half dragons and celestials just to be cannon fodder.... they were so cautious and didn't fight anything much, spent most of the adventure gathering knowleage So, they like to fight, but didn't get into fights that you wrote in? That doesn't make much sense. Still, there are plenty of monsters out there that will attack half-dragons and half-celestials. Most demons and devils will probably attack half-celestials on sight. Big monsters (giants, trolls, bulettes, dire animals) will attack anyone smaller than them if they're hungry. Throw in fights that make sense to you. You don't have to be fair about it either - try having a dire tiger attack them while they're sleeping for the night! First of all nobody warned me that half celestails can fly You should have checked this on your own. It's the DM's responsibility to check his player's abilities and come up with appropriate challenges. Out of game problems are more probably my own paranoia. I'm not going to comment on your social life, but from the general tone of your post (both in and out of game), it sounds like you need to be a bit more assertive. Don't let people walk all over you. Also a point of arguement, as far as i know magic missile does not need a roll to hit because its automatic but with 4 people (the experienced players) ganging up on me what am i to do? OH and do all spells need a consentartion (sorry spelling) check? I didn't think they did unless its specified or the person casting is being attacked. Cos this really mucked up my battle plans making them too easy again. Yeah, you're right on both counts. Don't cave in under pressure if you think you're right about something. Take a moment to look it up and do it right.
Torack 03-06-06, 08:54 AM	I agree with Astute1. Have the PHB and DMG and MM on you when you game, so that you can point out where stuff is mentioned. Caving in to players is a situational area. However, in this case, I'd say rough 'em up a bit. Send some large-ish (huge, gargantuan, collossal) creatures up against them (ignore the CR) and give them a good stompin'. You are in charge of the story, not them. If a person claims something is happening that you know isn't (i.e. the glowing artifact) let them have their fun. The other players will learn quickly enough that that specific character is not to be trusted (ie. Have them suffer a good whacking.) Normally I would advice against such tactics, but your players appear to be running all over you. Just remember: As a DM, you can kill them whenever you want. Its the darker side of Rule 0.
Gemmalah 03-06-06, 09:41 AM	ok i guess i am a pushover, but i was relying on the experienced players to help me with the rules, cos i'm a slow reader and it is terribly disruptive if i have to look everything up. Should I stop relying on the experienced players to help me out and do it all by myself. Oh and my house rule is that in pre game meetings players tell dm important things about characters so i don't have to look them up. I have other things to do apart from check all of their characters aswell and i thought that experienced players should be able to tell me at least that. I don't believe a DM has to nanny a party.
Illion the Red 03-06-06, 09:59 AM	Sounds like you have a group of immature players to deal with. It's time to let them have it. The next time the Player decides that the item is glowing, pass a not to another Player saying that there is no glow. Let them work that bit of chaos out for themselves. The best thing you can do with a group like this is to plan ahead. Create your own encounters ahead of time. Make them range in difficulty from relatively easy to intensely difficult. Throw things at them that are hard to deal with if they are rolling over everything. Examples: (dependign on their level, this might be too much of a challenge but if they are celestials and half-dragons they should be way up there from LA and Racial HD and the like) A gargantuan fiendish treant with a group of 4th level Kobold sorcerers using scorching rays to hit any fliers. (Ranged Touch Attacks) Unfortuantely, it is your responsibilty as the DM to know what your PCs are capable of and what they are not. It is also your responsibility to manage the group. It's not an easy job. Just take a waltz through these forums and you'll see a host of issues and some suggestions on how to address them. The bottom line on most issues...talk to your players about the issues. Explain what you've done, what they've done. I, personally, would admonish the experienced players for trying to push that magic missile hit roll issue. It's the most commonly used spell in the game - anyone who has been playing any significant length of time knows how the spell works.
DracoPhoenix 03-06-06, 11:56 AM	I'm sorry this may be a long rant, I need to get a few things off my chest and possibly gain advice from others. I have a friend who had heard me talk about D+D and read my monster manual and was really interested in playing, so i decided to make a short explore the area and fight a few monsters campaign to be a one off. Just so he knows what i'm on about. I allowed half dragons and half celestials, because I usually have level one chars where the campaign never lasts long enough to level up and wanted to play with some big monsters for a change. Anyway in game the problems were that i introduced an artifact (collect all of them together and they have lots of power individually they do mundane things like glow if its going to rain the next day ect...) I introduced one that glows when the town is in danger (as an introduction to the campaign target to save the rest which have been stolen) One of the players kept saying, 'its glowing its glowing, it glows every time we mention the Gnoll forest' (an area in my game) But it wan't i corrected him every time but in the end he convinced everyone else it was glowing and set them out on a quest to search for nothing because the town wasn't in danger (at that point in the story, it was to glow later as a plot point) I'm worried now they won't take it seriously when it really does glow. Um, I think this falls under "consequences of your actions". That is, you've corrected him, he still does it. If in future when you say it glows they ignore you, that is their problem. You've told them it glowed. I mean I have been playing for two years and four of the players where 10 years experience and 2 where complete newbies. The most disruptive ones were the experienced ones. Try taking the trouble makers aside and asking them to behave a little more - remind them that they were newbies once too. But don't mention that you pick who the monsters target :devil: Being a less experienced DM i used tricks such as assigning someone else to work out experience points to speed the game along. And to work out CR they guy got it wrong so the buck got passed to me and suddenly i was to blame for too easy battles (which i beefed up a bit on the fly) The bad news is - prepare ahead of the game. Get on top of the CRs, set up a bunch of random encounter templates. Throw them a hard ball from time to time (and don't fudge the rolls to keep them alive) Also The players said the like to fight alot, so i put in lots of monsters, but i considered that most random monsters would not just attack a group of half dragons and celestials just to be cannon fodder. So the pcs would have to go to them eg: they notice a large group of kobolds following them. But they were so cautious and didn't fight anything much, spent most of the adventure gathering knowleage (which i didn't include much of because they wanted lots of fights) Then at the end told me that there needs to be more fights. Move the mountain to Mohamed (sp?) They wont charge the kobolds - kobolds love traps - ambush them, don't give them the option to avoid the attack. And a dragon tends to consider other lifeforms inferior - bugs to be squashed. Or Illithids. Drow, theres a few monsters out there that attack in appropriate numbers. First of all nobody warned me that half celestails can fly so they missed most of the battles anyway, we had a meeting to discuss characters and as far as i knew then only one of the chars could fly (clumsily) so i thought that maybe they would be on the ground most of the time. hold person/monster, charm means they cant/wont fly. You don't have to have melee fights the whole time. And who's to say that horde of flying monkeys cant keep up? Out of game problems are more probably my own paranoia. I notice that these guys don't seem to take any interest in me outside of D+D (one of them is really close friend so thats how they know me.) I'm into the same music (sometimes go to the same club), even got entered into their pool team. (not as if they'd let me play though) I'm getting a suspision that in their eyes i'm only a DM and not a person. I mean I set a target of 4 people to play (so it would be quicker getting into the story) but 6 people turn up. What am I to do kick out two of them not that i knew who they were at all. Odd, I don't think I've ever considered this strategy for a dm before - walk. If they purely only want you for dm'ing you have two options - accept that you'll never be more than dm and deal, make subtle inquries to joing in outside of d&d - they may not realise your interest in socialising. Failing that, walk, it's a game for everyone to enjoy. I probably wouldn't be doing this with them if they wern't the only avaibable party (exept for one that is very difficult to play with) and it wasn't the only real social activity i get to do. I am a student at university so i work alot. Also a point of arguement, as far as i know magic missile does not need a roll to hit because its automatic but with 4 people (the experienced players) ganging up on me what am i to do? I ended up rolling one anyway because the game had ground to a halt because of it, with said player refusing to take 2 damage yes 2 he had an ac of 25 so its the least he could do. (and it was in the middle of a refereed tourniment in which he would be healed after the battle anyway) Whip out the PHB - does it say roll to hit? nope. therefore one can infer no attack roll needed OH and do all spells need a consentartion (sorry spelling) check? I didn't think they did unless its specified or the person casting is being attacked. Cos this really mucked up my battle plans making them too easy again. only when they take damage - that said you could always use a meat shield (lots of grunt monsters), protection from arrows, high con w/ max levels in concentrate, combat casting etc :) Sorry for longness of post thank you for reading i feel much better now. been talked into doing it again, before we start i will bring up all of these issues and say if these things happen again I will leave and not come back! No worries, Hope this is some help
Bruunwald 03-06-06, 12:59 PM	Yikes. Okay, if I am understanding this correctly, your questions/problems are: 1. One of the players was creating a plot point (the glowing artifact) that wasn't there. 2. You think these guys don't really like you as a person and are using you for your game. 3. The party is uncooperative about combats and then blames you for a slow outcome. 4. They think magic missile needs an attack roll. 5. You want to know if a Concentration check is mandatory when casting a spell. Okay... 1. The bit where the player kept insisting that the item was glowing when it was not was unfortunate. That player might be one of those who does not understand the line between DM and player. Yes, the player does help the DM create the world, but only insofar as his own character is concerned. The PC does things that affect the world, and the DM adjusts the world accordingly. The player DOES NOT create the rules of the world or change the nature of items in it. The most productive thing to do would have been to take the player aside at the time, remind him that you - not he - describe the world and the items in it, and calmly advise him that if he continues he might ruin a plot point. However, if you think it's too late, you might want to change the nature of the item. Perhaps when the time comes, it shatters instead of glowing, and something within is finally revealed. This sort of thing is good because it will remind the problem player that things are going to happen that are beyond his ability to predict, and thus beyond his ability to control. 2. The question of whether these players use you for your game and aren't good friends is sort of mitigated by your stating that if not for the game you probably wouldn't hang out with these guys. Obviously, the feeling is mutual, so you really have little to complain about. Now, the thing is the fun of the game ought to be mutual. If these guys are ruining your fun, then you really have no obligation towards playing with them. 3. Uncooperative playing is always a problem. Players in general expect much, give little and complain a lot about things they had a direct hand in creating. Even my best players can be unforgiving at times, and often over problems they created, or notions that are figments of their imagination with no basis in reality. I have a player I have known since Jr. High and who I love like a brother, but damn it if he can't be infuriating sometimes. He seems to judge the entire campaign only by events from the latest session. That is, if the last session didn't have a lot of spellcasting in it, then suddenly he starts complaining that the entire campaign doesn't seem to have any spellcasting in it at all. Now, that would not be true: you could point out that every session before that one was 50% spellcasting, and he will after awhile come around and see your point. But it's still a pain to have to have that sort of discussion all the time. What I'm getting at is that people in general are impressionable, but have short attention spans. So if the last session didn't go great, that may be all they remember. They also don't like to take blame, and they expect a lot. The best thing to do is have a calm, out-of-game discussion with them about this. Remind them that while there is free will in the game, they are still participants in a story and they need sometimes to help you out by going along with you. Also mention that they can't complain about the lack of action when they themselves are walking away from every battle you present to them. In-game you could simply throw creatures at them that are not afraid of half-dragons and half-celestials, such as fiends, and create situations they can't immediately escape from, such as an ambush. 4. The magic missile issue could easily have been solved had someone had a copy of the Player's Handbook nearby. No, magic missile does not require an attack roll. The rule is clear and simple. The next time this happens, open the book and point to it and ask the offending player to read it out loud. 5. A Concentration check is not mandatory for casting a spell. It is provoked when the spellcaster is attacked while casting. It can be voluntary when the spellcaster is utilizing his Combat Casting feat.
DracoPhoenix 03-07-06, 04:24 AM	I don't believe a DM has to nanny a party. Sadly though, you may have to. Especially if they happen to omit important abilities until they're used or otherwise mislead you. Intentionally or not. :(
Gemmalah 03-07-06, 05:18 AM	Thank you for all you help, just one question, I realise now that concentartion checks are not needed all the time, yet as i didn't have my PHB on me at the time (my brother is borrowing it so i constructed the adventure using choice segments from the SRD) I asked someone who did to look it up. He flipped to a page and said 'Whenever a spell is cast a consentration check is needed' I thought this was contrary to what i had read before but there he was apparantly reading it out of the book. Do you think he was blatantly cheating? I mean it wasn't the guy who was going to get hit by the spell and for the rest of the adventure I used non magic casters until i could look it up myself. Oh and does anyone know if there are specific rules for fighting while flying?I'm gonna get mean (winged template in savage species should do me fine) And i have seen so many different versions of how to work out CR and exp I'm kinda confused. Any ideas? [edit] I think you can get used for being a DM, my society at university plays D+D on mondays and i don't go mostly because i know if I go all the other DMs will leave it up to me even if i suggest taking turns! I get called last night to see if i was joining in only because the DM hadn't showed up. I wonder if they would have called if a DM was present. (is this real paranoia)