Can You Coup'De'Grace Something With Regen? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can You Coup'De'Grace Something With Regen? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Neo_Leviathan
01-03-06, 09:43 AM I'm not 100% sure on this.

Say the party is attacking a Troll, and they do enough damage to drop it with subduel.

Now, I know that if they have say, a torch or something they can coup de grace it wit the torch (since it deals fire damage).

Now, if they dont have fire or acid, can they coup de grace for the kill?
Shaggy_Shaggs
01-03-06, 09:51 AM I don't know if there's an official rule on this, unofficially though you might simply rule that the the attack auto-crits as normal but there is no fort save vs death required.

After all, nonlethal damage taken beyond what it takes to knock you out converts to lethal, put enough damage on a regenerator even without the right weapons and you should be able to keep it down.

So they may not be able to kill it with one fell blow, but it seems reasonable that they could continually hack away at it until its body could no longer cope (-10 hp via converted lethal damage).
Neo_Leviathan
01-03-06, 10:00 AM Just grabbed my monster manual and looked up regeneration.

"A regenerating creature that has been redered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage."

So it seems that you *do* have to have the appropriate energy type to bypass regen on-hand.
This didnt' matter against the normal troll they were fighting, since the rogue basically went "What do we need" and pulled out a bag full of acid, alchemists fire, lamp oil, etc (even though they didn't get a high enough knowledge check to know what bypassed their regen, I figured that since trolls were so iconic I'd let it slide).
However, the Crystalline Troll is going to be fun *Evil Grin*
MarkB
01-03-06, 10:01 AM By the rules, you can only coup de grace a creature with a weapon which deals lethal damage to it - so no, you can't kill a troll by making a coup de grace attack with an ordinary sword.

I believe the FAQ recommends that a coup de grace attack which deals non-lethal damage should result, on a failed save, in the target's non-lethal damage increasing to a total of its current hit points plus 10.

After all, nonlethal damage taken beyond what it takes to knock you out converts to lethal
Do you have a cite for that? I don't think it's correct.
olshanski_home
01-03-06, 10:03 AM I believe that playing by the rules, you cannot coup-de-grace a troll without either acid or fire.
This doesn't mean that a party without fire or acid cannot kill a troll:
Trolls need to eat. Trolls need to breathe.
Just deal enough 100 points of non-lethal damage so that it will take the troll 20 rounds to regain consciousness. This is easy enough to do, because you can pretty freely power-attack a troll once it is helpless... chop it into bits or whatnot.
Then, bury the pieces in a hole or submerge them in water. The troll at this point doesn't have lungs to hold its breath, and the DM should start the countdown to suffocation immediately. With constitution checks of increasing DC every round, (and with a 20 constitution), the troll automatically fails the CON check after 15 rounds (assuming he rolls 20s on his con check). Then, in 3 rounds he is dead for good.
As a DM, I usually don't roleplay out this little bit... we just assume the party takes 10 or 15 minutes to deal with the situation.
If you want to be more graphic. Just have some players pour sand into the throat of the troll while other characters hack off its arms and legs. Same result... suffocation.
olshanski_home
01-03-06, 10:04 AM After all, nonlethal damage taken beyond what it takes to knock you out converts to lethal, I believe this is only the case if the non-lethal damage is due to environmental effects. It might also be the case for starvation, but I am pretty sure starvation is handled by CON damage.
Feriin
01-03-06, 10:09 AM I'm not 100% sure on this.

Say the party is attacking a Troll, and they do enough damage to drop it with subduel.

Now, I know that if they have say, a torch or something they can coup de grace it wit the torch (since it deals fire damage).

Now, if they dont have fire or acid, can they coup de grace for the kill?

Normally you can Coup de Grace anything with Regen , as long as it is helpless. (if it can't move to defende itself it is helpless, reguardless if it is a awake unconcious)

Now here is where it gets a little sticky, The troll can regen anything and only fire and acid can kill it. So with a troll , though you could Coup it, the damage would just add to his negitive hitpoints. He would still regenerate unless you put some acid or fire to him.
MarkB
01-03-06, 10:10 AM Just deal enough 100 points of non-lethal damage so that it will take the troll 20 rounds to regain consciousness.
I seem to recall that non-lethal damage is limited to taking a creature to the equivalent of -10 HPs, after which further non-lethal damage has no effect, though I'd have to dig around for a cite of that. I don't think you can just keep pounding in order to create a huge 'pool' of non-lethal damage - though you can have someone keep pounding the troll each round in order to ensure it stays at -10.
olshanski_home
01-03-06, 10:14 AM Damage dealt to the creature is treated as nonlethal damage, and the creature automatically cures itself of nonlethal damage at a fixed rate.
Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, deal damage to the creature normally; that sort of damage doesn’t convert to nonlethal damage and so doesn’t go away. The creature’s description includes the details.
Creatures with regeneration can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts. Severed parts die if they are not reattached.
Regeneration does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.
Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage ignore regeneration.
An attack that can cause instant death only threatens the creature with death if it is delivered by weapons that deal it lethal damage.The two bolded sections make it clear that you cannot coup-de-grace a troll with any form of attack that does not deal fire or acid damage.

I forgot to mention in my previous post that trolls can still be killed with CON ability damage (such as from a green slime or several types of poison). Trolls can also be killed with strength damage from a shadow or negative levels from a variety of other undead.
Feriin
01-03-06, 10:15 AM Ignore this , made a mistake
olshanski_home
01-03-06, 10:22 AM I seem to recall that non-lethal damage is limited to taking a creature to the equivalent of -10 HPs, after which further non-lethal damage has no effect, though I'd have to dig around for a cite of that.There is no such rule for non-lethal damage. Non-lethal damage is tracked separate from hit points and has no upper level. You do not subtract non-lethal damage from hit points, but rather compare the two numbers.
Theoretically, you could deal enough non-lethal damage to a troll that it would take it a month to regenerate, and during that time it would starve to death. {Just for kicks: it would take 2,160,000 non-lethal damage to knock out a troll for a month}
Dealing Nonlethal Damage: Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you’ve accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not “real” damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you’re staggered, and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. It doesn’t matter whether the nonlethal damage equals or exceeds your current hit points because the nonlethal damage has gone up or because your current hit points have gone down.
I ran the adventure "Crypt of the Devil Lich" by Goodman Games, and there was a point where the party 16th level paladin became confused in a room riddled with traps. The party's only way to stop the paladin from wandering off was to attack him with no-lethal damage. I think the party had two rogus armed with saps that flanked the paladin and dealt 140 points of non-lethal damage.
Shaggy_Shaggs
01-03-06, 10:34 AM Sorry, I had my wires crossed. :blush:

I know that's core in at least one game system... now if I could only remember which... :thinks:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Neo_Leviathan 01-03-06, 09:43 AM	I'm not 100% sure on this. Say the party is attacking a Troll, and they do enough damage to drop it with subduel. Now, I know that if they have say, a torch or something they can coup de grace it wit the torch (since it deals fire damage). Now, if they dont have fire or acid, can they coup de grace for the kill?
Shaggy_Shaggs 01-03-06, 09:51 AM	I don't know if there's an official rule on this, unofficially though you might simply rule that the the attack auto-crits as normal but there is no fort save vs death required. After all, nonlethal damage taken beyond what it takes to knock you out converts to lethal, put enough damage on a regenerator even without the right weapons and you should be able to keep it down. So they may not be able to kill it with one fell blow, but it seems reasonable that they could continually hack away at it until its body could no longer cope (-10 hp via converted lethal damage).
Neo_Leviathan 01-03-06, 10:00 AM	Just grabbed my monster manual and looked up regeneration. "A regenerating creature that has been redered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage." So it seems that you do have to have the appropriate energy type to bypass regen on-hand. This didnt' matter against the normal troll they were fighting, since the rogue basically went "What do we need" and pulled out a bag full of acid, alchemists fire, lamp oil, etc (even though they didn't get a high enough knowledge check to know what bypassed their regen, I figured that since trolls were so iconic I'd let it slide). However, the Crystalline Troll is going to be fun Evil Grin
MarkB 01-03-06, 10:01 AM	By the rules, you can only coup de grace a creature with a weapon which deals lethal damage to it - so no, you can't kill a troll by making a coup de grace attack with an ordinary sword. I believe the FAQ recommends that a coup de grace attack which deals non-lethal damage should result, on a failed save, in the target's non-lethal damage increasing to a total of its current hit points plus 10. After all, nonlethal damage taken beyond what it takes to knock you out converts to lethal Do you have a cite for that? I don't think it's correct.
olshanski_home 01-03-06, 10:03 AM	I believe that playing by the rules, you cannot coup-de-grace a troll without either acid or fire. This doesn't mean that a party without fire or acid cannot kill a troll: Trolls need to eat. Trolls need to breathe. Just deal enough 100 points of non-lethal damage so that it will take the troll 20 rounds to regain consciousness. This is easy enough to do, because you can pretty freely power-attack a troll once it is helpless... chop it into bits or whatnot. Then, bury the pieces in a hole or submerge them in water. The troll at this point doesn't have lungs to hold its breath, and the DM should start the countdown to suffocation immediately. With constitution checks of increasing DC every round, (and with a 20 constitution), the troll automatically fails the CON check after 15 rounds (assuming he rolls 20s on his con check). Then, in 3 rounds he is dead for good. As a DM, I usually don't roleplay out this little bit... we just assume the party takes 10 or 15 minutes to deal with the situation. If you want to be more graphic. Just have some players pour sand into the throat of the troll while other characters hack off its arms and legs. Same result... suffocation.
olshanski_home 01-03-06, 10:04 AM	After all, nonlethal damage taken beyond what it takes to knock you out converts to lethal, I believe this is only the case if the non-lethal damage is due to environmental effects. It might also be the case for starvation, but I am pretty sure starvation is handled by CON damage.
Feriin 01-03-06, 10:09 AM	I'm not 100% sure on this. Say the party is attacking a Troll, and they do enough damage to drop it with subduel. Now, I know that if they have say, a torch or something they can coup de grace it wit the torch (since it deals fire damage). Now, if they dont have fire or acid, can they coup de grace for the kill? Normally you can Coup de Grace anything with Regen , as long as it is helpless. (if it can't move to defende itself it is helpless, reguardless if it is a awake unconcious) Now here is where it gets a little sticky, The troll can regen anything and only fire and acid can kill it. So with a troll , though you could Coup it, the damage would just add to his negitive hitpoints. He would still regenerate unless you put some acid or fire to him.
MarkB 01-03-06, 10:10 AM	Just deal enough 100 points of non-lethal damage so that it will take the troll 20 rounds to regain consciousness. I seem to recall that non-lethal damage is limited to taking a creature to the equivalent of -10 HPs, after which further non-lethal damage has no effect, though I'd have to dig around for a cite of that. I don't think you can just keep pounding in order to create a huge 'pool' of non-lethal damage - though you can have someone keep pounding the troll each round in order to ensure it stays at -10.
olshanski_home 01-03-06, 10:14 AM	Damage dealt to the creature is treated as nonlethal damage, and the creature automatically cures itself of nonlethal damage at a fixed rate. Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, deal damage to the creature normally; that sort of damage doesn’t convert to nonlethal damage and so doesn’t go away. The creature’s description includes the details. Creatures with regeneration can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts. Severed parts die if they are not reattached. Regeneration does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage ignore regeneration. An attack that can cause instant death only threatens the creature with death if it is delivered by weapons that deal it lethal damage.The two bolded sections make it clear that you cannot coup-de-grace a troll with any form of attack that does not deal fire or acid damage. I forgot to mention in my previous post that trolls can still be killed with CON ability damage (such as from a green slime or several types of poison). Trolls can also be killed with strength damage from a shadow or negative levels from a variety of other undead.
Feriin 01-03-06, 10:15 AM	Ignore this , made a mistake
olshanski_home 01-03-06, 10:22 AM	I seem to recall that non-lethal damage is limited to taking a creature to the equivalent of -10 HPs, after which further non-lethal damage has no effect, though I'd have to dig around for a cite of that.There is no such rule for non-lethal damage. Non-lethal damage is tracked separate from hit points and has no upper level. You do not subtract non-lethal damage from hit points, but rather compare the two numbers. Theoretically, you could deal enough non-lethal damage to a troll that it would take it a month to regenerate, and during that time it would starve to death. {Just for kicks: it would take 2,160,000 non-lethal damage to knock out a troll for a month} Dealing Nonlethal Damage: Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you’ve accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not “real” damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you’re staggered, and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. It doesn’t matter whether the nonlethal damage equals or exceeds your current hit points because the nonlethal damage has gone up or because your current hit points have gone down. I ran the adventure "Crypt of the Devil Lich" by Goodman Games, and there was a point where the party 16th level paladin became confused in a room riddled with traps. The party's only way to stop the paladin from wandering off was to attack him with no-lethal damage. I think the party had two rogus armed with saps that flanked the paladin and dealt 140 points of non-lethal damage.
Shaggy_Shaggs 01-03-06, 10:34 AM	Sorry, I had my wires crossed. :blush: I know that's core in at least one game system... now if I could only remember which... :thinks: