Can you deal with a demon and come out ahead? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can you deal with a demon and come out ahead? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Always-Late
06-18-06, 01:57 PM Or, by default, will the demon screw you over?

For example, could you pledge eternal servitude to a demon in exchange for having the demon and associates never touch your (small) hometown? Or, would they just bind you in chains and then wipe your town off the face of the map?
tsuyoshikentsu
06-18-06, 02:02 PM If one of your players made a deal with a demon, the answer is, "Yes, if they're intelligent," for two reasons.

Number one, if the answer is no it feels like you're deliberately screwing them over.

Number two, finding a way to screw a demon over is an adventure BEGGING to happen. ;)
Kresalak
06-18-06, 02:04 PM This is a classic theme; a man gives himself to some great evil to protect others. I treat deals with true Outsiders as magically binding; both sides must uphold the rules of the deal. Just pledging servitude wouldn't do anything; you'd need a magically binding pact between you for it to have any effect.
fatal error
06-18-06, 02:04 PM The real question is, when making pacts with fiends, should you go demon or devil?
On one hand, the Demon might just ignore his side of the bargain (thus, make sure you can either, A) beat it in a fight or B) he must do his part before you do yours).
For Devils, though, they'll hold to a the pact, but they'll probably also twist whatever you say into the worst possible ways. Your village won't be harmed, the people will be murdered, but the village will be fine.

Anyway, I doubt it would be a good idea to pledge eternal servitude to a Demon for it not to attack your village. He'll just let it live as long as he likes, then just go and kill it, completely ignoring your bargain, and then torture you and get some magical help to make sure you keep serving him. Assuming you can't beat him yourself, in which case you wouldn't need to make the pact.
Pandaemoni
06-18-06, 02:43 PM The real question is, when making pacts with fiends, should you go demon or devil?
On one hand, the Demon might just ignore his side of the bargain (thus, make sure you can either, A) beat it in a fight or B) he must do his part before you do yours).
For Devils, though, they'll hold to a the pact, but they'll probably also twist whatever you say into the worst possible ways. Your village won't be harmed, the people will be murdered, but the village will be fine.

Anyway, I doubt it would be a good idea to pledge eternal servitude to a Demon for it not to attack your village. He'll just let it live as long as he likes, then just go and kill it, completely ignoring your bargain, and then torture you and get some magical help to make sure you keep serving him. Assuming you can't beat him yourself, in which case you wouldn't need to make the pact.

I agree with this. Demons are Chaotic Evil for a reason. They might deal with a character to get something they want, but once they've received it, they are too mercurial to care about keeping their side of te bargain. That said, "eternal" servitude might be the gift the keeps on giving if your services cannot be easily replaced. Since there's always more for you to do....the demon might well keep up its end of the bargain just to keep you performing yours.

If by "eternal" you mean "until I die and then you get my soul"...that's a tricker question. In my games I'd rule that your agreeing to give your soul to a demon "taints" it. When you die that taint alone will send your soul to the Abyss. Pile on a few decades of services rendered to a demon and your sould may well be beyond saving. In that case, the demon might wait until you are old and feeble (and thus unable to render any more services), destroy the town--just to see your reaction--then kill you and take your soul anyway.

Devils, in contrast, I see as deal makers and promise keppers. They see the value in making deals with mortals and in keeping their word (because their reputatuion for keeping their word encourages more mortals to make more deals). They might try to twist the wording iof the deal, or they might not, depending on the devil; though I imagine them all as very legalistic always hewing closely to the liiteral wording of the agreement as they can. As a result I see them as more likely to wnat to get the pact in writing rather than relying on an oral agreement.

Again, in my ganmes dealing with a devil in this manner likely taints one's soul, but you are more likely to get what's advertised in such a Faustian bargain.
Pegasos989
06-18-06, 03:35 PM Hmm... I have actually been thinking of a spell that, when cast on a written contract, willfully signed by all participants, would force the participants to obey it (propably in the form of having them do mad willsaves any time they want to break it). This would work by the letter (so yeah, devil could still kill everyone in the village as long as they didn't harm the village). Still unsure of the details, propably gonna go to magic and spells -board and ask for advice...
Phoenix Knight
06-18-06, 03:36 PM In theory, Kolyarut's hunt down those that break their oaths. In practice, a solitary inevitable is unlikely to want to break into the Abyss to kill a demon powerful enough to bother making a deal.

Of course, it is devils that make faustian bargains, generally, anyway. That's why the Pit Fiend gets the wish spell-like ability.
Richmud
06-18-06, 04:43 PM As others have said a deal with a devil can work out if you are smarter then the devil and read all the fine print in the contract.

A deal with a demon on the other hand has no value unless you are powerful enough to punish the demon for breaking it

So to sum up always know the type of fiend you are dealing with
zlatko
06-18-06, 05:09 PM Deals are generally made with devils.

Demons, on the other hand, just push you around or (if you're powerful enough) you push them around.

Devils, although they are lawful, they are not honorable and will try to twist the terms of the contract in their favor. Being lawful means they act to achieve some higher purpose (like getting new souls to power the armies of Nine Hells :))They can even grant a Wish.

A contract is sealed with a geas/quest type of effect and everything it implies. Note that a Devil can free himself from the effect via the wish spell. Also, most Pit Fiends can cast Wish once a year.

If you make a deal with a Devil in order to get a Wish, the perils are twofold. First you are forced to fulfill your end of the deal. Second, since it is the devil itself that grants you the wish, you must utter your wish even more carfully as opposed to wish being granted to you by your own God or your magicall prowess. Your death during servitude might trigger some unwanted consequences.

I remember a few stories of great warriors that made a deal with a Pit Fiend. One wanted a magical sword more powerful then any other in the world, and bid a Pit Fiend to make him one in exchange for some services. Sweet?. The sword drank the souls of the slain thus fueling a transformation process; The warrior was slowly gaining powers and appearance of a Pit Fiend. The warrior was thrilled with the new powers and used the sword to slay more people. Once he, in appearance, was trully a Pit Fiend, he and the Pit Fiend that created the sword switched places; the warrior banished to the Nine Hells and the Pit Fiend free on the Prime Material.

The poster above mentioning taint was right on. Promises of power make a road to hell all the steeper for the lustfull soul.
Wuggadad
06-18-06, 05:28 PM It depends on how corrupting you play your demons:

A not-so powerful demon might decide to play it fairly straight with the party. Perhaps even throw in some "bonus" gift.

The idea would be to let the powers corrupt the character (and player). First they get a +2 inherent bonus to some attribute. Then that bonus fades away. The character then wants to know how to get that bonus back. "Oh, some trivial display of devotion to XYZ demon. Just sacrifice some live animals to XYZ." No tricks, no Translocation trick substitutions on the sacrifices to make them sentient sacrifices.

Just a little quasit preaching, "Hey, you want power? Quickly? You just have to be willing to make a few sacrifices."

Trick is, if the character _stops_, all the gifts go away and it is now an inherent penalty, rather than a bonus.

And allow the character to repent, but as long as he clings to the demonic gifts, he can't repent. And the character's natural strength has long since been weakened, only the demonic gifts allow him to function at or above his old ability level.

The thing the quasit _wants_ is for the character to say, "Okay, what can I do to get more power." He wants the character to think of ways that would permanently separate him from his moral past, to show their loyalty to their new master.

A demon forced into a position of bargaining isn't going to want to have to go into conspicuous and dangerous displays of power in order to get what they want. They want to play on the sense that they _will_ inevitably get their payment.

Think of demons as poorly organized crime. Players can shoot the odd Greedo, ala Han Solo in the Cantina, no problem. But they still have to deal with the demon boss who owns the debt because eventually it becomes bad business for that demon to ignore the problem.
tsuyoshikentsu
06-18-06, 05:32 PM *snip* :eek:

System is TOTALLY stolen!
kelvinaw273
06-18-06, 05:35 PM Or, by default, will the demon screw you over?

For example, could you pledge eternal servitude to a demon in exchange for having the demon and associates never touch your (small) hometown? Or, would they just bind you in chains and then wipe your town off the face of the map?

Sure - the demons will arrange for someone else to do it, and hold you to your word. Demons are EVIL - they will ALLWAYS screw you over unless you are every bit as smart, cunning, wise and devious as they are. Oh, and Demons rarely keep their word anyway. They are Chaotic, after all.
Wuggadad
06-18-06, 06:05 PM No, the demons won't arrange for someone else to threaten the home town, just because.

Not if they are smart, cruel and ambitious.

They may latch on to some threat that will be heading in the general area, and some quasit will say, "Greetings Client of the Almighty (insert demonic titles here). As you know, my master is constrained from intervening in the fate of (small town). Can't harm anybody there, can't help anybody. Now my master has some information about a potential threat to (small town) and has sent me to inquire what that information is worth to you."

Just wiping out the home town would be gimmicky, more satisfying to the GM's sense of cruelty than the demons. By holding out the prospect of the home town's destruction and giving the character a crooked path to save it, the character can participate in his own damnation.

So perhaps the home town gets saved from an evil army by demons. But the good religious orders and temples around it get desecrated. Home town then become _dependant_ on those demons for protection. Those demons saved it when all else failed them.

Having a PC's home town devoured by demons shows a lack of artistic temperment. Get the town turned into a center of demonic worship through the player's own actions? Get the character seen as a 'hero', publicly praised and privately feared in his home town, with its new clergy?

Instead of warning the characters and players of all the nasty consequences, introduce the natural consequences of a character going around trying to contact Dark Powers. Not a Dark Power, but a con man.

"Consequences? Hah! There is no downside to this demonic contract! That is a myth put out by the Pelorian Temples to deny people of inner power, such as yourself, your true birthright!"

Have the character seeking power or immortality start getting the equivalent of Dark SPAM. Periodically they will see signs or omens leading them to one scam artist or body seeking necromancer after another. "Seeking immortality? Dr. Frank N. Stein can help! Seeking to get the best value from your soul? Baba Yaga's exchange can help! Remember, you need to do an act of vile corruption in order to get an appointment, so don't delay!"

Ask your player this: They get an advertisement from a demon offerring to, ahem, "enhance" them by a few points in the Comeliness Attribute with respect to the opposite sex. Ask how they would feel about the 'operation' being down by demonic claws.

Face it, if a character is willing to ignore the natural ick factor of that, they are well on the path to loving demons and being damned in every sense of the word.
Cifer
06-18-06, 06:07 PM It has already been said:
Don't deal with demons - either you intimidate them enough to make them do as you wish or the other way around.
Don't deal with devils unless you know legalese better than them, an unlikely event except for the minor ones since every pit fiend has had almost eternity in order to learn how to screw people over.
Pandaemoni
06-18-06, 07:39 PM It has already been said:
Don't deal with demons - either you intimidate them enough to make them do as you wish or the other way around.
Don't deal with devils unless you know legalese better than them, an unlikely event except for the minor ones since every pit fiend has had almost eternity in order to learn how to screw people over.

I disagree to some extent. Most people hire lawyers because the lawyers know the legalese better than they do, but I'd dispute that a common man can never enter a deal with a lawyer and come out okay. Devils are not literalily dishonorable just because they are evil. Mephistopheles, for example, does honor his deal with Faust...the Devil did give the golden fiddle to Johnny in that Charlie Daniels Band song. Many devils in literature do try to twist the words of a contract, others seem to merely drive hard bargains and enforce their deals strictly (buut fairly) by their terms. I think that depends on which devil you are dealing with.

In that sense I see them as being like lawyers generally. Some will try to screw you, others will deal with you fairly, most of them are likely to hold you to the strict terms of the deal, though.
Talkkno
06-18-06, 08:13 PM I disagree to some extent. Most people hire lawyers because the lawyers know the legalese better than they do, but I'd dispute that a common man can never enter a deal with a lawyer and come out okay. Devils are not literalily dishonorable just because they are evil. Mephistopheles, for example, does honor his deal with Faust...the Devil did give the golden fiddle to Johnny in that Charlie Daniels Band song. Many devils in literature do try to twist the words of a contract, others seem to merely drive hard bargains and enforce their deals strictly (buut fairly) by their terms. I think that depends on which devil you are dealing with.

In that sense I see them as being like lawyers generally. Some will try to screw you, others will deal with you fairly, most of them are likely to hold you to the strict terms of the deal, though.
I would have to respectlly disargee with you however, as when you deal with evil as such like that, they will screw you over regardless, as there purpose is a decation to an empty void of which is evil, as they are the incranates of lawful evil, which lawful evil does this by, attempting to drag others down into a mire of vice and oppression, making all slaves to the emptiness from which they too suffer
Popinjay
06-18-06, 08:48 PM Sure players can benefit!

Also keep in mind that not all such deals are zero sum games. That is to say, in an agreement, it is not the case that one person always wins and one person always loses. BOTH can, and often do, end up better for it. Even if the two do not benefit equally both can benefit compared to their starting positions.

So yes, I don't see why one can not come out ahead with either one.

BUT, evil characters are...well, evil. A good or neutral character trying to make such a deal better make sure he/she knows what he/she is agreeing to.

Nevertheless, I can see a lot of ways this can happen. Evil doesn't only fight good, sometimes it fights other versions of evil. What if a devil wants revenge on some demon and a PC can give him something he needs to further his ends (for example, reveal something he discovered that would reveal the demon's location). The player might very well ask for a favor in return and, if vengence is important enough to the devil, he could get it. In this way the player's position is improved two fold. #1 he is helping to hurt a demon. #2. He gains a benefit from something worthwhile he is offered.

And simply objecting that evil characters are evil and don't like the good characters isn't proof that they could not, under some circumstances, come to mutually beneficial agreements. Further, there is no reason why the PC couldn't come out ahead and screw the forces of evil either.

In essence this question is really no different than asking if a good PC could ever benefit from dealing with an evil NPC. Of course they can!

Whether or not certain types of good characters (like a paladin) would do so is a different story. They may refuse. But other neutral good (the best kind of good!), chaotic good,and even some lawful good characters could do so and, if wary enough, come out ahead.

Walmart is evil, but I am not necessarily screwing myself over if I make a purchase from them, especially if I do so only under certain conditions.

Pop

Pop
The Colonel
06-18-06, 09:00 PM For example, could you pledge eternal servitude to a demon in exchange for having the demon and associates never touch your (small) hometown? Or, would they just bind you in chains and then wipe your town off the face of the map?

Like this?:
(From Rudyard Kipling's Naulakha)

Your patience, Sirs. The Devil took me up
To the burned mountain over Sicily
(Fit place for me) and thence I saw my Earth--
(Not all Earth's splendour, 'twas beyond my need--)
And that one spot I love--all Earth to me,
And her I love, my Heaven. What said I?
My love was safe from all the powers of Hell-
For you--e'en you--acquit her of my guilt--
But Sula, nestling by our sail--specked sea,
My city, child of mine, my heart, my home--
Mine and my pride--evil might visit there!
It was for Sula and her naked port,
Prey to the galleys of the Algerine,
Our city Sula, that I drove my price--
For love of Sula and for love of her.
The twain were woven--gold on sackcloth--twined
Past any sundering till God shall judge
The evil and the good.

... I think the idea of the demon or devil preserving the town by turning it into a centre of evil, and making sure your name was attatched to the project is probably the best one.

Also you could always rule that just calling up a demon or devil to talk to is an evil act involving sacrifice, or at the very least blasphemy (reciting the Lord's Prayer backwards was often cited at witch trials as a way of calling up 'the devil').

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Always-Late 06-18-06, 01:57 PM	Or, by default, will the demon screw you over? For example, could you pledge eternal servitude to a demon in exchange for having the demon and associates never touch your (small) hometown? Or, would they just bind you in chains and then wipe your town off the face of the map?
tsuyoshikentsu 06-18-06, 02:02 PM	If one of your players made a deal with a demon, the answer is, "Yes, if they're intelligent," for two reasons. Number one, if the answer is no it feels like you're deliberately screwing them over. Number two, finding a way to screw a demon over is an adventure BEGGING to happen. ;)
Kresalak 06-18-06, 02:04 PM	This is a classic theme; a man gives himself to some great evil to protect others. I treat deals with true Outsiders as magically binding; both sides must uphold the rules of the deal. Just pledging servitude wouldn't do anything; you'd need a magically binding pact between you for it to have any effect.
fatal error 06-18-06, 02:04 PM	The real question is, when making pacts with fiends, should you go demon or devil? On one hand, the Demon might just ignore his side of the bargain (thus, make sure you can either, A) beat it in a fight or B) he must do his part before you do yours). For Devils, though, they'll hold to a the pact, but they'll probably also twist whatever you say into the worst possible ways. Your village won't be harmed, the people will be murdered, but the village will be fine. Anyway, I doubt it would be a good idea to pledge eternal servitude to a Demon for it not to attack your village. He'll just let it live as long as he likes, then just go and kill it, completely ignoring your bargain, and then torture you and get some magical help to make sure you keep serving him. Assuming you can't beat him yourself, in which case you wouldn't need to make the pact.
Pandaemoni 06-18-06, 02:43 PM	The real question is, when making pacts with fiends, should you go demon or devil? On one hand, the Demon might just ignore his side of the bargain (thus, make sure you can either, A) beat it in a fight or B) he must do his part before you do yours). For Devils, though, they'll hold to a the pact, but they'll probably also twist whatever you say into the worst possible ways. Your village won't be harmed, the people will be murdered, but the village will be fine. Anyway, I doubt it would be a good idea to pledge eternal servitude to a Demon for it not to attack your village. He'll just let it live as long as he likes, then just go and kill it, completely ignoring your bargain, and then torture you and get some magical help to make sure you keep serving him. Assuming you can't beat him yourself, in which case you wouldn't need to make the pact. I agree with this. Demons are Chaotic Evil for a reason. They might deal with a character to get something they want, but once they've received it, they are too mercurial to care about keeping their side of te bargain. That said, "eternal" servitude might be the gift the keeps on giving if your services cannot be easily replaced. Since there's always more for you to do....the demon might well keep up its end of the bargain just to keep you performing yours. If by "eternal" you mean "until I die and then you get my soul"...that's a tricker question. In my games I'd rule that your agreeing to give your soul to a demon "taints" it. When you die that taint alone will send your soul to the Abyss. Pile on a few decades of services rendered to a demon and your sould may well be beyond saving. In that case, the demon might wait until you are old and feeble (and thus unable to render any more services), destroy the town--just to see your reaction--then kill you and take your soul anyway. Devils, in contrast, I see as deal makers and promise keppers. They see the value in making deals with mortals and in keeping their word (because their reputatuion for keeping their word encourages more mortals to make more deals). They might try to twist the wording iof the deal, or they might not, depending on the devil; though I imagine them all as very legalistic always hewing closely to the liiteral wording of the agreement as they can. As a result I see them as more likely to wnat to get the pact in writing rather than relying on an oral agreement. Again, in my ganmes dealing with a devil in this manner likely taints one's soul, but you are more likely to get what's advertised in such a Faustian bargain.
Pegasos989 06-18-06, 03:35 PM	Hmm... I have actually been thinking of a spell that, when cast on a written contract, willfully signed by all participants, would force the participants to obey it (propably in the form of having them do mad willsaves any time they want to break it). This would work by the letter (so yeah, devil could still kill everyone in the village as long as they didn't harm the village). Still unsure of the details, propably gonna go to magic and spells -board and ask for advice...
Phoenix Knight 06-18-06, 03:36 PM	In theory, Kolyarut's hunt down those that break their oaths. In practice, a solitary inevitable is unlikely to want to break into the Abyss to kill a demon powerful enough to bother making a deal. Of course, it is devils that make faustian bargains, generally, anyway. That's why the Pit Fiend gets the wish spell-like ability.
Richmud 06-18-06, 04:43 PM	As others have said a deal with a devil can work out if you are smarter then the devil and read all the fine print in the contract. A deal with a demon on the other hand has no value unless you are powerful enough to punish the demon for breaking it So to sum up always know the type of fiend you are dealing with
zlatko 06-18-06, 05:09 PM	Deals are generally made with devils. Demons, on the other hand, just push you around or (if you're powerful enough) you push them around. Devils, although they are lawful, they are not honorable and will try to twist the terms of the contract in their favor. Being lawful means they act to achieve some higher purpose (like getting new souls to power the armies of Nine Hells :))They can even grant a Wish. A contract is sealed with a geas/quest type of effect and everything it implies. Note that a Devil can free himself from the effect via the wish spell. Also, most Pit Fiends can cast Wish once a year. If you make a deal with a Devil in order to get a Wish, the perils are twofold. First you are forced to fulfill your end of the deal. Second, since it is the devil itself that grants you the wish, you must utter your wish even more carfully as opposed to wish being granted to you by your own God or your magicall prowess. Your death during servitude might trigger some unwanted consequences. I remember a few stories of great warriors that made a deal with a Pit Fiend. One wanted a magical sword more powerful then any other in the world, and bid a Pit Fiend to make him one in exchange for some services. Sweet?. The sword drank the souls of the slain thus fueling a transformation process; The warrior was slowly gaining powers and appearance of a Pit Fiend. The warrior was thrilled with the new powers and used the sword to slay more people. Once he, in appearance, was trully a Pit Fiend, he and the Pit Fiend that created the sword switched places; the warrior banished to the Nine Hells and the Pit Fiend free on the Prime Material. The poster above mentioning taint was right on. Promises of power make a road to hell all the steeper for the lustfull soul.
Wuggadad 06-18-06, 05:28 PM	It depends on how corrupting you play your demons: A not-so powerful demon might decide to play it fairly straight with the party. Perhaps even throw in some "bonus" gift. The idea would be to let the powers corrupt the character (and player). First they get a +2 inherent bonus to some attribute. Then that bonus fades away. The character then wants to know how to get that bonus back. "Oh, some trivial display of devotion to XYZ demon. Just sacrifice some live animals to XYZ." No tricks, no Translocation trick substitutions on the sacrifices to make them sentient sacrifices. Just a little quasit preaching, "Hey, you want power? Quickly? You just have to be willing to make a few sacrifices." Trick is, if the character _stops_, all the gifts go away and it is now an inherent penalty, rather than a bonus. And allow the character to repent, but as long as he clings to the demonic gifts, he can't repent. And the character's natural strength has long since been weakened, only the demonic gifts allow him to function at or above his old ability level. The thing the quasit _wants_ is for the character to say, "Okay, what can I do to get more power." He wants the character to think of ways that would permanently separate him from his moral past, to show their loyalty to their new master. A demon forced into a position of bargaining isn't going to want to have to go into conspicuous and dangerous displays of power in order to get what they want. They want to play on the sense that they _will_ inevitably get their payment. Think of demons as poorly organized crime. Players can shoot the odd Greedo, ala Han Solo in the Cantina, no problem. But they still have to deal with the demon boss who owns the debt because eventually it becomes bad business for that demon to ignore the problem.
tsuyoshikentsu 06-18-06, 05:32 PM	snip :eek: System is TOTALLY stolen!
kelvinaw273 06-18-06, 05:35 PM	Or, by default, will the demon screw you over? For example, could you pledge eternal servitude to a demon in exchange for having the demon and associates never touch your (small) hometown? Or, would they just bind you in chains and then wipe your town off the face of the map? Sure - the demons will arrange for someone else to do it, and hold you to your word. Demons are EVIL - they will ALLWAYS screw you over unless you are every bit as smart, cunning, wise and devious as they are. Oh, and Demons rarely keep their word anyway. They are Chaotic, after all.
Wuggadad 06-18-06, 06:05 PM	No, the demons won't arrange for someone else to threaten the home town, just because. Not if they are smart, cruel and ambitious. They may latch on to some threat that will be heading in the general area, and some quasit will say, "Greetings Client of the Almighty (insert demonic titles here). As you know, my master is constrained from intervening in the fate of (small town). Can't harm anybody there, can't help anybody. Now my master has some information about a potential threat to (small town) and has sent me to inquire what that information is worth to you." Just wiping out the home town would be gimmicky, more satisfying to the GM's sense of cruelty than the demons. By holding out the prospect of the home town's destruction and giving the character a crooked path to save it, the character can participate in his own damnation. So perhaps the home town gets saved from an evil army by demons. But the good religious orders and temples around it get desecrated. Home town then become _dependant_ on those demons for protection. Those demons saved it when all else failed them. Having a PC's home town devoured by demons shows a lack of artistic temperment. Get the town turned into a center of demonic worship through the player's own actions? Get the character seen as a 'hero', publicly praised and privately feared in his home town, with its new clergy? Instead of warning the characters and players of all the nasty consequences, introduce the natural consequences of a character going around trying to contact Dark Powers. Not a Dark Power, but a con man. "Consequences? Hah! There is no downside to this demonic contract! That is a myth put out by the Pelorian Temples to deny people of inner power, such as yourself, your true birthright!" Have the character seeking power or immortality start getting the equivalent of Dark SPAM. Periodically they will see signs or omens leading them to one scam artist or body seeking necromancer after another. "Seeking immortality? Dr. Frank N. Stein can help! Seeking to get the best value from your soul? Baba Yaga's exchange can help! Remember, you need to do an act of vile corruption in order to get an appointment, so don't delay!" Ask your player this: They get an advertisement from a demon offerring to, ahem, "enhance" them by a few points in the Comeliness Attribute with respect to the opposite sex. Ask how they would feel about the 'operation' being down by demonic claws. Face it, if a character is willing to ignore the natural ick factor of that, they are well on the path to loving demons and being damned in every sense of the word.
Cifer 06-18-06, 06:07 PM	It has already been said: Don't deal with demons - either you intimidate them enough to make them do as you wish or the other way around. Don't deal with devils unless you know legalese better than them, an unlikely event except for the minor ones since every pit fiend has had almost eternity in order to learn how to screw people over.
Pandaemoni 06-18-06, 07:39 PM	It has already been said: Don't deal with demons - either you intimidate them enough to make them do as you wish or the other way around. Don't deal with devils unless you know legalese better than them, an unlikely event except for the minor ones since every pit fiend has had almost eternity in order to learn how to screw people over. I disagree to some extent. Most people hire lawyers because the lawyers know the legalese better than they do, but I'd dispute that a common man can never enter a deal with a lawyer and come out okay. Devils are not literalily dishonorable just because they are evil. Mephistopheles, for example, does honor his deal with Faust...the Devil did give the golden fiddle to Johnny in that Charlie Daniels Band song. Many devils in literature do try to twist the words of a contract, others seem to merely drive hard bargains and enforce their deals strictly (buut fairly) by their terms. I think that depends on which devil you are dealing with. In that sense I see them as being like lawyers generally. Some will try to screw you, others will deal with you fairly, most of them are likely to hold you to the strict terms of the deal, though.
Talkkno 06-18-06, 08:13 PM	I disagree to some extent. Most people hire lawyers because the lawyers know the legalese better than they do, but I'd dispute that a common man can never enter a deal with a lawyer and come out okay. Devils are not literalily dishonorable just because they are evil. Mephistopheles, for example, does honor his deal with Faust...the Devil did give the golden fiddle to Johnny in that Charlie Daniels Band song. Many devils in literature do try to twist the words of a contract, others seem to merely drive hard bargains and enforce their deals strictly (buut fairly) by their terms. I think that depends on which devil you are dealing with. In that sense I see them as being like lawyers generally. Some will try to screw you, others will deal with you fairly, most of them are likely to hold you to the strict terms of the deal, though. I would have to respectlly disargee with you however, as when you deal with evil as such like that, they will screw you over regardless, as there purpose is a decation to an empty void of which is evil, as they are the incranates of lawful evil, which lawful evil does this by, attempting to drag others down into a mire of vice and oppression, making all slaves to the emptiness from which they too suffer
Popinjay 06-18-06, 08:48 PM	Sure players can benefit! Also keep in mind that not all such deals are zero sum games. That is to say, in an agreement, it is not the case that one person always wins and one person always loses. BOTH can, and often do, end up better for it. Even if the two do not benefit equally both can benefit compared to their starting positions. So yes, I don't see why one can not come out ahead with either one. BUT, evil characters are...well, evil. A good or neutral character trying to make such a deal better make sure he/she knows what he/she is agreeing to. Nevertheless, I can see a lot of ways this can happen. Evil doesn't only fight good, sometimes it fights other versions of evil. What if a devil wants revenge on some demon and a PC can give him something he needs to further his ends (for example, reveal something he discovered that would reveal the demon's location). The player might very well ask for a favor in return and, if vengence is important enough to the devil, he could get it. In this way the player's position is improved two fold. #1 he is helping to hurt a demon. #2. He gains a benefit from something worthwhile he is offered. And simply objecting that evil characters are evil and don't like the good characters isn't proof that they could not, under some circumstances, come to mutually beneficial agreements. Further, there is no reason why the PC couldn't come out ahead and screw the forces of evil either. In essence this question is really no different than asking if a good PC could ever benefit from dealing with an evil NPC. Of course they can! Whether or not certain types of good characters (like a paladin) would do so is a different story. They may refuse. But other neutral good (the best kind of good!), chaotic good,and even some lawful good characters could do so and, if wary enough, come out ahead. Walmart is evil, but I am not necessarily screwing myself over if I make a purchase from them, especially if I do so only under certain conditions. Pop Pop
The Colonel 06-18-06, 09:00 PM	For example, could you pledge eternal servitude to a demon in exchange for having the demon and associates never touch your (small) hometown? Or, would they just bind you in chains and then wipe your town off the face of the map? Like this?: (From Rudyard Kipling's Naulakha) Your patience, Sirs. The Devil took me up To the burned mountain over Sicily (Fit place for me) and thence I saw my Earth-- (Not all Earth's splendour, 'twas beyond my need--) And that one spot I love--all Earth to me, And her I love, my Heaven. What said I? My love was safe from all the powers of Hell- For you--e'en you--acquit her of my guilt-- But Sula, nestling by our sail--specked sea, My city, child of mine, my heart, my home-- Mine and my pride--evil might visit there! It was for Sula and her naked port, Prey to the galleys of the Algerine, Our city Sula, that I drove my price-- For love of Sula and for love of her. The twain were woven--gold on sackcloth--twined Past any sundering till God shall judge The evil and the good. ... I think the idea of the demon or devil preserving the town by turning it into a centre of evil, and making sure your name was attatched to the project is probably the best one. Also you could always rule that just calling up a demon or devil to talk to is an evil act involving sacrifice, or at the very least blasphemy (reciting the Lord's Prayer backwards was often cited at witch trials as a way of calling up 'the devil').