Can you help me and my DM? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can you help me and my DM? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
gorion
11-04-03, 01:18 PM We have a little problem.
In the last session, my wizard has killed a party member. My wizard has a CR 8, while this fighter a CR of 7.

First of all I want to say that there was a serious reason to commit this murder: we were TRAPPED in a dungeon, and after 4 sessions of walking up and down we finally reached the hall of the wizard.
Surprisingly this wizard was really a nice lady, and told us
that she was going to free us after a dinner (we had been teleported there). We ate, and after that the fighter killed her. Now we are trapped in the dungeon with a dead wizard.:behold:
My PC was furious, and he attempted to kill the fighter.
My alignment is Lawful Evil.

I used a Phantasmal Killer, and he died.
At the end of the session my DM gave me 20 xp points more than any other. 20 XP for a CR 7?
This seems a little low to me. I have proposed him to reduce the CR to 3 or 4 because the fighter wasn't expecting such a reaction and though he wasn't prepared, but 20 Xp... :rolleyes:

I can understand that he wants to discourage Player Killing, but I'm not the player that do this sort of things. It was an action based on the alignment of my PC and circumstances.

What do you think about this?
black_swan
11-04-03, 01:24 PM I would never give out XP for killing another pc...

Be happy you received 20.
Bacon and Eggs
11-04-03, 01:26 PM I think that 20 is a bit much too.

Even in an evil group there has to be some kind of party cohesion. Looks like there wasn't in this case and thus, no party.

That's a better experience that any player can have without the reward of in-game points.
gorion
11-04-03, 01:27 PM Originally posted by black_swan
I would never give out XP for killing another pc...

Can I ask you why?
Thayde
11-04-03, 01:35 PM If the DM is going to allow LE players in the party he's going to get players killing players. He should have to give the player the points.
Bacon and Eggs
11-04-03, 01:41 PM That doesn't sound like a party to me if at any time somebody "off"s anoter in the group. What were the motivations of keeping them together in the first place?

Sounds more like an arena based situation, or just plain mercenaries.

Once player A kills player B the game is over. Well, any game that I'm in is over, because the fun ceases to exist for various reasons.
gorion
11-04-03, 01:52 PM I can understand your point Bacon and Eggs, but try to imagine the situation: your are trapped since 4 weeks in a dungeon, no way to getting out of there. Now there's a NPC that offers his help. And your friend PC kills him just because a dwarven vampire told him so (I known this later).
You could be trapped there for the whole life.
I'm an evil character? What should I do?

Also I'm playing D&D since 10 years and it's the first time that I kill a party member...I'm not a Pkiller :)
KShaver
11-04-03, 01:55 PM Originally posted by Thayde
If the DM is going to allow LE players in the party he's going to get players killing players. He should have to give the player the points.

Then should the DM also give points for the players randomly getting in fights with anything and everything they come across? XP should only be gived for encounters or creatures that need to be overcome.

The next question is of course why did the fighter kill the wizard?
Thayde
11-04-03, 01:59 PM Originally posted by KShaver
Then should the DM also give points for the players randomly getting in fights with anything and everything they come across?

I'm not saying that characters should randomly get into fights. I'm saying that when you take on a character who is Lawful Evil, you should expect him to be lawful evil. Killing a fellow party member if you felt you had a better chance to survive because he was foolish...

I think that is lawful evil
black_swan
11-04-03, 02:48 PM you start giving out xp for player killing.

I don't believe it should be rewarded. You roleplayed out the scene and he gave you some extra xp for it...great.

Now..pc's become bundles of xp for your other players to harvest.

As honest as your intentions are..others may not be.
PenderGrass
11-04-03, 03:16 PM Killing a fellow party member if you felt you had a better chance to survive because he was foolish... I think that is lawful evil

No.

This sounds like a sporadic decision made off-the-cuff... more like CE than LE...

NOW.., if you decided to let it slide until your PC was on watch and then beat the hapless fighter into submission with mind-controlling spells, or some such.... THEN used him as a trap-finder, door-opener, and so forth!!!

Now that would have been LE

Because now he would still be helping you find your way out - he would have been brought in line and got his mind straight through your gentle teachings. :smirk: :behold: :D
L33t Angel
11-04-03, 04:10 PM Just because he's Lawful Evil doesn't mean he isn't prone to fits of rage.

The Fighter just ruined their best chance for survival. Hell, if I had magical powers I'd probably kill a dozen people on the freeway everyday, killing the Fighter seems like somethign that makes sense. No, its not a good act, but I can easily see it occurring. Hell, Good characters may even resort to PKing in this circumstance.
Nephet
11-04-03, 06:58 PM It really depends on how the game is run. I could definitely see getting normal xp for killing a fellow party member but it better be in a fair fight and make good roleplaying sense. I don't use xp, but if I did (and when I did) I would use story awards and roleplaying awards rather than combat awards - to avoid these kinds of arguments.
Arbitrary Aardvark
11-05-03, 11:19 AM I would count the fighter as the usual CR 7, but divide the experience among all the party members (including the dead fighter, after all, if he is brought back to life he will have learned something.)
Optimus Prime.
11-05-03, 03:41 PM Sounds like you all die to me down there and can't get out. Time to roll new character :heehee
Xychotic
11-05-03, 07:10 PM 1. Your DM is right. You get 20 XP.

2. You were right, I have killed PCs on numerous occasions... sometimes even when I was playing. (Yeah, I'm a DM.)

3. Seriously, the DM obviously chose not to reward your behavior. That is, from a game-playing perspective, a very bad thing to do, killing another PC.

4. You were not acting out of alignment. I kick anyone who says that Lawful anything has to think everything out. There is a point where people need to stop with their extremist views, and recognize that they are guidelines.

5. Lastly, yeah, you guys are doomed. Wait... if you could cast phantasmal killer, why can't you cast dimension door?! If the dead wizard was actually a wizard, why haven't you raided his book to find the spell he intended to use to get you outta there?!
Stuntman
11-05-03, 11:15 PM There are alternatives to killing another PC party member. You can be patient about it and take some form of vengence later. If you want to harm him in some way now, just break his favourite magic weapon. Perhaps it is better to wait until you find another way to get out and then harm someone that PC cares about.

Not killing fellow PC's tends to be an unwritten rule and for good reason. As was mentioned before, it takes the fun out of the game for everyone and creates a bad environment for all players in the party.
Fixxxer
11-06-03, 12:18 AM Originally posted by gorion
I'm an evil character? What should I do?

Well, this isn't really supposed to be a discussion about right and wrong, but...

Let me ask you a question. Imagine you (you, not your PC) found yourself trapped in a city sewer system with only one of your friends and you were unable to find a doorway outside. Now, imagine that a city sanitation worker shows up and tells you that it's tough luck that you're trapped, but he can show you the way out if you've hang around him for six hours while he continues taking pH samples. Your friend is furious. He punches the sanitation worker upside the head and kills him.

Now, let me ask you...would you (and remember, this is you we're talking about...not a PC) get so angry that you take out your pocket knife and kill your friend? Why or why not?
gorion
11-06-03, 07:41 AM Originally posted by Optimus Prime.
Sounds like you all die to me down there and can't get out. Time to roll new character :heehee

I hope we'll find a way out :P

I'll try to reply to all..

@ Xychotic

5. I have find the book, the problem is that it is protected from a spherical force wall. And I haven't any idea on how dispel it :)

Also any form of planar travel is locked. Don't ask me why. Only my DM knows it.

@ Fixxxer

It's not a really hard choice. I'll keep shouting at my friend for days, but I won't kill him.
The problem is that I'm not Lawful Evil...If I have to give myself an alignment in real life I'll say that I'm neutral good.
However, when playing a game like D&D, I think that you MUST act following your alignment guidelines. Killing someone seems the worst thing to do to me in real life, but it's not the same for my charachter. So, if he hasn't any problem with killing someone for profit, why he should have in killing the fighter, especially after him put in danger his life?
RobTzu
11-06-03, 09:05 AM I would say that having evil characters was a bad idea to start with. That being said, he did and you killed a CR 7 creature, you should get the xp. I heartily suggest not allowin evil P.C.'s ever. Ever EVER NEVER EVER!!!
Arkenian
11-06-03, 04:45 PM Personally, I would have been a bit insulted, in our evil game, if the DM hadn't awarded decent XP for defeating me.

I mean, even kobolds give XP! Who would want to be considered worth less than a kobold?!

On a more serious note, had I been the DM . . . if you surprised the fighter (acting alone?) I'd give you full XP with a 50% decrease on the basis of favorable circumstances decreasing the fighter's CR (The fighter was a party member, so you know all his strengths and weaknesses, you surprised him, he didn't have a chance to fight back.) If the fighter was severely weakened (particularly if his fort or will saves were lowered for some reason, but even if his HP was low or whatever), I would have given you 33% of the usual XP (i.e. the same as CR-3).

If the fighter gets ressurrected, I would award him 33% of the XP for your CR [he will have survived fighting you] (he knows your strengths and weaknesses, you're a party member, you only get half for losing) If you were weakened (which was almost certainly the case, if you'd spent the day in a dungeon) he'd get 25% of the XP. You and the fighter don't split XP, because you were on opposite sides of the battle. I'd probably toss in his level times 25 XP for the RP encounter of being worth resurrecting (If he has just been PKed, this is a non-trivial matter). Of course, he also gets full XP for killing the wizard (there's a lot of permutations to how I'd handle that) If I wasn't too annoyed with the fighter for killing the wizard, I thought he got a tough break by you killing him, I didn't have any urge to have him get less XP than you for the fight, and he was a good sport about the whole thing . . . then I'd give him your full CR's benefit (You were weakened, but he was taken by surprise)

I wouldn't divide it up among the rest of the party unless they participated in the attack, by planning or whatever. (If the fight went on long enough so they could have interfered, and they didn't that would be yet another calculation)

-Lord Arzeth Tornin
GoodTeletubby
11-06-03, 05:05 PM as for your charachter's dilemma

try whatever you can on that sphere

it may be something devilishly simple

for example, try a knock spell

you never know, maybe if you knock, the door will be opened

try anything and everything you can
StormKnight
11-06-03, 05:21 PM From a roleplaying point, I don't think you did anything wrong. The fighter made a very serious mistake in attacking someone who seemed like a friend to the group without telling the group why. I could even see even a good character attacking the fighter at that point, though for different reasons and probably not with quite such force.

However, I would not give you challenge experience for it either. I consider experience to be an award for overcoming difficulty and challenges. The PC was not a challenge; he was a party member! The XP system is abstract to the extreme and there is no reason not to treat it as such. Producing and then defeating a foe that you never had a reason to fight does not make you a better adventurer; it makes you a stupid one.
If XP were reward strictly based on realistic terms, you would get more experience out of fighting a long battle with and losing to a better foe that getting in one lucky critical hit that kills the foe at the start of a fight.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gorion 11-04-03, 01:18 PM	We have a little problem. In the last session, my wizard has killed a party member. My wizard has a CR 8, while this fighter a CR of 7. First of all I want to say that there was a serious reason to commit this murder: we were TRAPPED in a dungeon, and after 4 sessions of walking up and down we finally reached the hall of the wizard. Surprisingly this wizard was really a nice lady, and told us that she was going to free us after a dinner (we had been teleported there). We ate, and after that the fighter killed her. Now we are trapped in the dungeon with a dead wizard.:behold: My PC was furious, and he attempted to kill the fighter. My alignment is Lawful Evil. I used a Phantasmal Killer, and he died. At the end of the session my DM gave me 20 xp points more than any other. 20 XP for a CR 7? This seems a little low to me. I have proposed him to reduce the CR to 3 or 4 because the fighter wasn't expecting such a reaction and though he wasn't prepared, but 20 Xp... :rolleyes: I can understand that he wants to discourage Player Killing, but I'm not the player that do this sort of things. It was an action based on the alignment of my PC and circumstances. What do you think about this?
black_swan 11-04-03, 01:24 PM	I would never give out XP for killing another pc... Be happy you received 20.
Bacon and Eggs 11-04-03, 01:26 PM	I think that 20 is a bit much too. Even in an evil group there has to be some kind of party cohesion. Looks like there wasn't in this case and thus, no party. That's a better experience that any player can have without the reward of in-game points.
gorion 11-04-03, 01:27 PM	Originally posted by black_swan I would never give out XP for killing another pc... Can I ask you why?
Thayde 11-04-03, 01:35 PM	If the DM is going to allow LE players in the party he's going to get players killing players. He should have to give the player the points.
Bacon and Eggs 11-04-03, 01:41 PM	That doesn't sound like a party to me if at any time somebody "off"s anoter in the group. What were the motivations of keeping them together in the first place? Sounds more like an arena based situation, or just plain mercenaries. Once player A kills player B the game is over. Well, any game that I'm in is over, because the fun ceases to exist for various reasons.
gorion 11-04-03, 01:52 PM	I can understand your point Bacon and Eggs, but try to imagine the situation: your are trapped since 4 weeks in a dungeon, no way to getting out of there. Now there's a NPC that offers his help. And your friend PC kills him just because a dwarven vampire told him so (I known this later). You could be trapped there for the whole life. I'm an evil character? What should I do? Also I'm playing D&D since 10 years and it's the first time that I kill a party member...I'm not a Pkiller :)
KShaver 11-04-03, 01:55 PM	Originally posted by Thayde If the DM is going to allow LE players in the party he's going to get players killing players. He should have to give the player the points. Then should the DM also give points for the players randomly getting in fights with anything and everything they come across? XP should only be gived for encounters or creatures that need to be overcome. The next question is of course why did the fighter kill the wizard?
Thayde 11-04-03, 01:59 PM	Originally posted by KShaver Then should the DM also give points for the players randomly getting in fights with anything and everything they come across? I'm not saying that characters should randomly get into fights. I'm saying that when you take on a character who is Lawful Evil, you should expect him to be lawful evil. Killing a fellow party member if you felt you had a better chance to survive because he was foolish... I think that is lawful evil
black_swan 11-04-03, 02:48 PM	you start giving out xp for player killing. I don't believe it should be rewarded. You roleplayed out the scene and he gave you some extra xp for it...great. Now..pc's become bundles of xp for your other players to harvest. As honest as your intentions are..others may not be.
PenderGrass 11-04-03, 03:16 PM	Killing a fellow party member if you felt you had a better chance to survive because he was foolish... I think that is lawful evil No. This sounds like a sporadic decision made off-the-cuff... more like CE than LE... NOW.., if you decided to let it slide until your PC was on watch and then beat the hapless fighter into submission with mind-controlling spells, or some such.... THEN used him as a trap-finder, door-opener, and so forth!!! Now that would have been LE Because now he would still be helping you find your way out - he would have been brought in line and got his mind straight through your gentle teachings. :smirk: :behold: :D
L33t Angel 11-04-03, 04:10 PM	Just because he's Lawful Evil doesn't mean he isn't prone to fits of rage. The Fighter just ruined their best chance for survival. Hell, if I had magical powers I'd probably kill a dozen people on the freeway everyday, killing the Fighter seems like somethign that makes sense. No, its not a good act, but I can easily see it occurring. Hell, Good characters may even resort to PKing in this circumstance.
Nephet 11-04-03, 06:58 PM	It really depends on how the game is run. I could definitely see getting normal xp for killing a fellow party member but it better be in a fair fight and make good roleplaying sense. I don't use xp, but if I did (and when I did) I would use story awards and roleplaying awards rather than combat awards - to avoid these kinds of arguments.
Arbitrary Aardvark 11-05-03, 11:19 AM	I would count the fighter as the usual CR 7, but divide the experience among all the party members (including the dead fighter, after all, if he is brought back to life he will have learned something.)
Optimus Prime. 11-05-03, 03:41 PM	Sounds like you all die to me down there and can't get out. Time to roll new character :heehee
Xychotic 11-05-03, 07:10 PM	1. Your DM is right. You get 20 XP. 2. You were right, I have killed PCs on numerous occasions... sometimes even when I was playing. (Yeah, I'm a DM.) 3. Seriously, the DM obviously chose not to reward your behavior. That is, from a game-playing perspective, a very bad thing to do, killing another PC. 4. You were not acting out of alignment. I kick anyone who says that Lawful anything has to think everything out. There is a point where people need to stop with their extremist views, and recognize that they are guidelines. 5. Lastly, yeah, you guys are doomed. Wait... if you could cast phantasmal killer, why can't you cast dimension door?! If the dead wizard was actually a wizard, why haven't you raided his book to find the spell he intended to use to get you outta there?!
Stuntman 11-05-03, 11:15 PM	There are alternatives to killing another PC party member. You can be patient about it and take some form of vengence later. If you want to harm him in some way now, just break his favourite magic weapon. Perhaps it is better to wait until you find another way to get out and then harm someone that PC cares about. Not killing fellow PC's tends to be an unwritten rule and for good reason. As was mentioned before, it takes the fun out of the game for everyone and creates a bad environment for all players in the party.
Fixxxer 11-06-03, 12:18 AM	Originally posted by gorion I'm an evil character? What should I do? Well, this isn't really supposed to be a discussion about right and wrong, but... Let me ask you a question. Imagine you (you, not your PC) found yourself trapped in a city sewer system with only one of your friends and you were unable to find a doorway outside. Now, imagine that a city sanitation worker shows up and tells you that it's tough luck that you're trapped, but he can show you the way out if you've hang around him for six hours while he continues taking pH samples. Your friend is furious. He punches the sanitation worker upside the head and kills him. Now, let me ask you...would you (and remember, this is you we're talking about...not a PC) get so angry that you take out your pocket knife and kill your friend? Why or why not?
gorion 11-06-03, 07:41 AM	Originally posted by Optimus Prime. Sounds like you all die to me down there and can't get out. Time to roll new character :heehee I hope we'll find a way out :P I'll try to reply to all.. @ Xychotic 5. I have find the book, the problem is that it is protected from a spherical force wall. And I haven't any idea on how dispel it :) Also any form of planar travel is locked. Don't ask me why. Only my DM knows it. @ Fixxxer It's not a really hard choice. I'll keep shouting at my friend for days, but I won't kill him. The problem is that I'm not Lawful Evil...If I have to give myself an alignment in real life I'll say that I'm neutral good. However, when playing a game like D&D, I think that you MUST act following your alignment guidelines. Killing someone seems the worst thing to do to me in real life, but it's not the same for my charachter. So, if he hasn't any problem with killing someone for profit, why he should have in killing the fighter, especially after him put in danger his life?
RobTzu 11-06-03, 09:05 AM	I would say that having evil characters was a bad idea to start with. That being said, he did and you killed a CR 7 creature, you should get the xp. I heartily suggest not allowin evil P.C.'s ever. Ever EVER NEVER EVER!!!
Arkenian 11-06-03, 04:45 PM	Personally, I would have been a bit insulted, in our evil game, if the DM hadn't awarded decent XP for defeating me. I mean, even kobolds give XP! Who would want to be considered worth less than a kobold?! On a more serious note, had I been the DM . . . if you surprised the fighter (acting alone?) I'd give you full XP with a 50% decrease on the basis of favorable circumstances decreasing the fighter's CR (The fighter was a party member, so you know all his strengths and weaknesses, you surprised him, he didn't have a chance to fight back.) If the fighter was severely weakened (particularly if his fort or will saves were lowered for some reason, but even if his HP was low or whatever), I would have given you 33% of the usual XP (i.e. the same as CR-3). If the fighter gets ressurrected, I would award him 33% of the XP for your CR [he will have survived fighting you] (he knows your strengths and weaknesses, you're a party member, you only get half for losing) If you were weakened (which was almost certainly the case, if you'd spent the day in a dungeon) he'd get 25% of the XP. You and the fighter don't split XP, because you were on opposite sides of the battle. I'd probably toss in his level times 25 XP for the RP encounter of being worth resurrecting (If he has just been PKed, this is a non-trivial matter). Of course, he also gets full XP for killing the wizard (there's a lot of permutations to how I'd handle that) If I wasn't too annoyed with the fighter for killing the wizard, I thought he got a tough break by you killing him, I didn't have any urge to have him get less XP than you for the fight, and he was a good sport about the whole thing . . . then I'd give him your full CR's benefit (You were weakened, but he was taken by surprise) I wouldn't divide it up among the rest of the party unless they participated in the attack, by planning or whatever. (If the fight went on long enough so they could have interfered, and they didn't that would be yet another calculation) -Lord Arzeth Tornin
GoodTeletubby 11-06-03, 05:05 PM	as for your charachter's dilemma try whatever you can on that sphere it may be something devilishly simple for example, try a knock spell you never know, maybe if you knock, the door will be opened try anything and everything you can
StormKnight 11-06-03, 05:21 PM	From a roleplaying point, I don't think you did anything wrong. The fighter made a very serious mistake in attacking someone who seemed like a friend to the group without telling the group why. I could even see even a good character attacking the fighter at that point, though for different reasons and probably not with quite such force. However, I would not give you challenge experience for it either. I consider experience to be an award for overcoming difficulty and challenges. The PC was not a challenge; he was a party member! The XP system is abstract to the extreme and there is no reason not to treat it as such. Producing and then defeating a foe that you never had a reason to fight does not make you a better adventurer; it makes you a stupid one. If XP were reward strictly based on realistic terms, you would get more experience out of fighting a long battle with and losing to a better foe that getting in one lucky critical hit that kills the foe at the start of a fight.