Post/Author/DateTime	Post
chaotic_easy_going 07-12-06, 01:16 PM	Hi, I'm a new DM and I'm having some difficulty setting the level of various spot and listen DCs. Is there a list or table somewhere that gives some examples of average or basic DCs? What is an average spot DC for an average 1st level party? What I mean by that is, assume the best character has Spot +5 and the worst has +0. Is an average spot DC 10, or 15? Is it considered a "difficult" roll if you have to roll more than 10 on a d20? Any guidance you could give would be very much appreciated! Thanks! ~ Adam
Pallin Rahl 07-12-06, 02:18 PM	You don't normally base skill DC's on what the party could do. ...the DC is simply how difficult something is to accomplish in and of itself. i.e. The lock is a set difficulty (DC) to pick, regardless of who's trying to pick it. The DC to pick the lock is the same for a level 20 Rogue with the skill maxed ...as it is for the level 1 Rogue with only 1 rank in the skill. The lock will be easier to pick for that level 20 Rogue... only because he is well-skilled at opening locks (not because the DC of the lock has changed). There is a table & instruction in the PHB or SRD, on this issue. Generally speaking... (essentially taken from the SRD) Very easy (DC 0) - Such as noticing something large in plain sight (Spot) Easy (DC 5) - Such as climbing a knotted rope (Climb) Average (DC 10) - Such as hearing an approaching guard (Listen) Tough (DC 15) - Such as rigging a wagon wheel to fall off (Disable Device) Challenging (DC 20) - Such as swimming in stormy water (Swim) Formidable (DC 25) - Such as opening an average lock (Open Lock) Heroic (DC 30) - Such as leaping across a 30-foot chasm (Jump) Nearly impossible (DC 40) - Such as tracking a squad of orcs across hard ground after 24 hours of rainfall (Survival)
revnk 07-12-06, 03:09 PM	As Pallin Rall wrote, the DC is based on the difficulty of the task, not the party level or composition. That said, if you want to tailor the kinds of tasks to the party, you simply need to look at the math: on a DC10 check, an untrained average person fails half the time; on a DC20 the same person fails 95% of the time. A 1st level rogue with a DEX of 15 and maxed-out ranks in Open Lock will have a +6 to such checks: a DC10 lock (fairly shoddy) will foil him 15% of the time unless conditions allow him to Take 10 (he fails if he rolls a 1-3). A better lock (DC15) will stop him 40% of the time unless he can Take 10 (he fails on a 1-8). An "average" lock (DC20, considered "challenging" under the general description) is beyond his reach unless he can tinker with it for 2 minutes under ideal conditions (Taking 20)--maybe good enough to get in for a nice calm butcher's in an empty pawnshop while his china looks out for Old Bill,* but not good enough to pop the only door out of the trapped room filling with poison gas while ravaging ghouls try to chew through the rest of the party. An "amazing lock" (DC40) is beyond our rogue's abilities: he needs to march down to the local guild and tender his resignation if that's the kind of assignment he's getting at 1st level. The point of this example is that you'll want, generally, to have your party taking "appropriate" challenges, and to do that you'll need to consider how often they can fail or how much time they need to spend on a task. If a deathtrap requires a DC25 skill use to escape, most 1st level characters will need to roll a 19 or 20 to succeed--unless they can Take 20, they're going to fail 90-95% of the time, which means they may die (hello, deathtrap?). On the other hand, a high level character with a +12 in a skill is going to accomplish "tough" (DC15) tasks 90% of the time--if that's all he's doing, he's slumming. What this means isn't that every peasant suddenly upgrades to "amazing" locks while every drainage ditch magically widens, etc. as soon as the characters get to higher levels. It does, however, mean that those higher level characters should probably be going to more exotic locales where the Vampire King has uniquely-designed locks on doors that are on the other side of 20' abysses, and so forth. Hope that helps a little. *"Butcher's"="Butcher's Hook"="look" "china"="china plate"="mate" "Old Bill"=cockney slang for a police officer. If anyone knows the rhyming slang (if any) for pawnshop, I'd love to know. Wilson (Terrence Stamp): I'm gonna 'ave a "butcher's" round the house. Ed Roel (Luis Guzmán): (horrified) Who you gonna butcher? Wilson: (patiently) Butcher's hook... look. -The Limey
Pallin Rahl 07-12-06, 03:44 PM	Yeah... it's not so much a question of "how do I change the DCs to accomodate my party?" ...but moreso a question of "what is an appropriate challenge for my party?" You should not send your party of level 1s to a dungeon that has death traps that are DC 30 to find and DC 40 to disable... However, slapping a DC 30 lock on the magic shop will keep any pesky level 1 Rogues from waltzing right in and robbing the place blind (...not that there wouldn't be magical wards/traps as well ;) ). I agree... just look at the math if you're concerned - remembering that you can't have more ranks in a class skill than 3+level... and that they're bound by the d20 and/or time constraints (taking 10 or 20).
Nom 07-13-06, 01:02 AM	There's a full-page table of sample DCs in chapter 3 of the DMG.