Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mastroyo 01-08-06, 03:52 PM	Here's the deal: I have 3 players (halfelf warrior,dwarf warrior,gnome thief) each handling a small 'batallion' of 10 soldiers in the frontier where there's going to be a major war soon. And i don't want them there, i want them in the capital, some 5 days away. What ideas do you have to make them go back, without being obvious like: you have to pass information, or as an order... I'm thinking something like a raid of guerrilla forces that force them to withdraw and start getting back, but i need them to understand that facing the forces is not wise... ¿? :confused:
MistWolf 01-08-06, 03:59 PM	Why do you not want them involved in the up and coming battle? Are the coming forces so overwhelming they will be killed? Or do you need them back at the capitol for a plot device? If in the face of overwhelming forces, don't force them back. Let them make one of four choices: Make their stand here. If they do, destroy their fighting force and wound the characters so badly they cannot fight and are left for dead. Return to the capitol to make their stand. And the whole kingdom cheered. Yay. Must carry a message to entreat another ally to enter the battle and turn the tide. Take their forces into the wilderness and start a guerilla campaign. Don't tell them to make one of these choices, but limit their choices by circumstance
larry_the_titan 01-08-06, 04:14 PM	mastroyo, Sorry but you cant make your players do anything but you can give them enough information that can make them decide to go back to the Capitol with out try to start a fight. This information can be anything such as a troop of an army is approaching the Capitol or they learn that thier troops come down with a disease or something else. If you weaken there troops enough they might with draw themselves but this might hurt more then just turn the story. So you cannot force your group to do anything but you can make them more likely to make said choices.
mikebook 01-08-06, 04:14 PM	The op-force shows up in huge numbers of at least 600-1000. The players have to leave or they will be killed to a man...They can leave and attack supply lines, gather intelligence, and run to get help to hold the line...Make their part in the fight a small part of a much large war.
Milandros 01-08-06, 04:44 PM	If they're under orders, have their commander order them to withdraw rather than throw their lives away. The next option is to have the players hear a rumour of an enemy column outflanking them and a probable attack on the capital while they stand waiting for the main force. Finally, their squad members (battalion is really a bit grand for 10 people - might as well call them divisions or armies) start to waver when the enemy force estimates come in. They'll start asking "Sir, we're not planning to stand here and fight 100 to 1 odds are we?" and "When are we withdrawing?" Have one desert in the middle of the night. When questioned, the others can answer that he was talking about how staying here was pure suicide. When the enemy comes into sight, the squads will start packing to withdraw, and just won't understand if the players order them to attack an enemy army alone. If they're not regular army, they'll probably hand back their payments and leave to sign up with "a commander whose actually got some brains".
b5201 01-08-06, 05:31 PM	Just curious do you have Hereos of Battle. It has something maybe a suggestion that says "The keep is soruonded have the players sneak out through enemy camps at night and get reinforcements". When they get the reinforcements they are ordered to the capitol on guard duty.
b5201 01-08-06, 05:31 PM	...It triple posted this ignore it.
b5201 01-08-06, 05:31 PM	...It triple posted this ignore it.
Wuggadad 01-08-06, 06:06 PM	Sometimes parties will retreat for the darnedest reasons. My 1st level party had been on a mission to go to an outpost escorting a player cleric to heal a wounded guard. It was an 8-man outpost, and they didn't have any magical healing. Or maybe they were just cheap. The hill town the party was operating from didn't have cash taxes as such, but they strongly requested some form of service in exchange for their hospitality. That was how the party got together. The party had been informed that the pigeon message from the outpost indicated that the guard might have to be transported back to town for more efficacious healing for his busted leg. Along the way, the party noticed that a spring flood had released some buried undead. The next day, they encountered a bunch of scattered skeletons that had wandered on to the path the party took. Encountered one at a time, the party didn't have a problem, but towards the end they started to bunch up. They were conserving the cleric's turn undead a bit, and weren't terribly familiar with how it worked in 3.0. As the party cleric Rebuke/Commanded undead, when he finally did face the undead it was impressive. A decent roll and 11 skeletons stood cowering, half of them tangled in the brambles they had been lured into. Later that day they looked into the avalanche area. I described the trees and vegetation around the area as having been mutated by the long exposure to negative energies. I described the avalanche as steep, and that there had actually been two seperate slides. And the lead fighter, on going down the hill on a rope, got grabbed at by a buried skeleton that he hadn't spotted. That, and he rolled a couple of '1's that creeped him out, as a bad failure might mean that he cut his rope, or the skeletons cut his rope, and he would be on a steep slope above a raging river with a completely unknown number of skeletons still buried there. The party had at this point encountered and destroyed 25 skeletons. There were 11 visible still mostly buried in the avalanche. But I think the real thing that spooked them most was that the unholy aura of the area made it hard for the cleric to make the skeletons cower. (I ruled it gave them Turn Resistence +2) And going from "Cleric is a secret weapon, we can slaughter the undead while they cower" to "Uh-oh, they are still moving and this area gives me the willies", prompted the party to at least temporarily retreat. So why did they retreat? 1) No real perception of urgency on their part. The problem could be left for someone who could handle it better. 2) They had a conflicting mission. They were trying to get a guy with a busted leg back to town to heal up. And they had gotten a very clear demonstration earlier that morning that tireless undead would overhaul them while they were carrying the wounded guardsman. So if they accidentally released all the undead, they might be screwed. 3) There was no perception that there was a great reward for messing around with the skeletons. 4) There were some nuisance attacks by the vegetation, mostly just brambles with attitude, but there is no reward in fighting vermin, and less in fighting plants. 5) The area was clearly physically dangerous. Smashing undead stuck in a landslide had seemed to me as a GM to just be shooting fish in a barrel. However, stuck in a landslide with over 200' of drop, over a raging river that I had perhaps over described as very dangerous if they fell in, and the consequences of failure were significant.
mastroyo 01-08-06, 06:12 PM	mastroyo, Sorry but you cant make your players do anything but you can give them enough information that can make them decide to go back to the Capitol with out try to start a fight. I know, i've been a DM for a long time, I know what railroading is.I am limited by languaje though. My intention was to create a different way of forcing them to the city. Something like beeing set in a deep valley that is overrun by forces, except thought the river in it, the only way they can escape... But a little less obvious and 'mmm... already done that...' have their commander order them to withdraw rather than throw their lives away. this is a bit too lineal, and that's what i don't want. something more elaborated, i don't know... only to give them a sense of freshness... (battalion is really a bit grand for 10 people - might as well call them divisions or armies) these are my languaje troubles again... didn't knew how to translate it. not batallion aparently. ;)
b5201 01-08-06, 06:15 PM	nvm
Wuggadad 01-08-06, 06:18 PM	Other things you can do: Make it clear to the party that there is somebody other than them who can face off with these guys. Like: "You know that the militia of Stanisford consists of 200 men, and the villages beyond it about 100 each. Unfortunately, at this time of year it takes a while to assemble a militia. And they wouldn't call it up unless and until they knew there was a threat." Another part of the problem is actually a more universal problem: Your party is too tied to its assets. The militarily smart thing would be for part of the party to book it with a message, while the rest kept an eye on the advancing horde, perhaps switching road signs around or destroying bridges or sniping at the enemy foragers. But then you have either the officers (the party members), separated off from their command, or worse, you split the party. This isn't an uncommon problem. You could have a party with wagons that is tied to the road, or it has horses, so it can't go into a dungeon without leaving someone to guard the horses. Or the party has a keep, but without their magic the keep would likely fall to raiders... A solution would be for a pigeon with a message simply _order_ them, either the party or the party + troops to where you as the GM want them. If the party members raised the troops themselves, and they are essentially a mercenary company hired by the kingdom, then make it clear to the party that a smart mercenary makes sure that _if_ he does the noble sacrifice of his troops for the sake of the kingdom, he would make perfectly sure that there were influential witnesses.
Wuggadad 01-08-06, 06:27 PM	Actually, a party getting orders to go somewhere isn't really linear. There is _plenty_ of room within that order for them to make decisions and roleplay. The party and individuals within the party can be pleased that they are joining up with other units, or aggravated that they didn't have a chance to slow the bad guys down. The party can get involved in army politics, are there more than one potential commanders, with different ideas as to strategy for how to beat the enemy? Can the players be influential in supporting one strategy over another? Perhaps they are ordered to the Capitol because the Capitol is at the center of a road network. An army could march swiftly out to meet the invaders once the army is assembled, no matter which route the invaders choose. Perhaps it is a matter of supplies. To assemble a large army that can strike efficiently, it has to be tied to a river or good road.
Milandros 01-08-06, 06:50 PM	If you're feeling like adding some good roleplay opportunities, then have the order to retreat come from a foppish minor nobleman who treats the PCs as low-class scum... or, if they're really contrary, have a foppish, obviously corrupt minor nobleman order the petty little sub-people to hold until they die in glorious battle - he's going to retreat, but it is their duty to die to cover his retreat, but he'll mention them as a footnote in the heroic report of his valiant holding action...
ehrin 01-08-06, 06:56 PM	1) have illness strike, and half their men go down with malaria, dysentary, etc. This will either force the cleric to use all his spells each day, or make it easier to think about retreating to somewhere they can get better. 2) Have a rogue steal something valuable from the party, and head back to the capitol... spellbook, sword, plans for battle, whatever. Then, they can decide to proceed or chase the lost item(s). 3) Have a plague, magical threat, dragon, ogre army, whatever suddenly appear back at the capitol... they can then decide what to do.
sagaman 01-09-06, 03:38 PM	99% of PC parties won't retreat, EVER, even if presented with overwhelming odds against them. Their metagaming little minds will tell them there is some way to beat the odds. If you want them to retreat, you'll have to order them or give them a REALLY good reason to turn back (besides attacking them).
YRM 01-09-06, 04:10 PM	1 - Why don't you want them out on the frontier? Small battles will be easier to manage, and it doesn't sound like they have a big enough force to make a huge difference in the battle for the capital. 2 - If you have a good reason for wanting to make them choose to go back to the capital, give them a good reason... if you're going to throw your PCs into a fight where the odds are overwhelming, and you don't think they'll retreat, or retreat in time, be prepared to CAPTURE them. A good rule of thumb is only to kill your PCs if it's an even fight or even a lower CR that just goes badly for them. Don't wipe out the party with a higher CR unless you provide plenty of avenues for escape and clear descriptions that indicate the odds are overwhelming. IDEAS: - What level are your PCs? If they saw several Iron Golems, a few hills over, tromping towards the capital, they may not be high enough in level to even consider fighting those monsters, and they'd feel compelled to go back and warn the defenders (think Empire Strikes Back AT-AT type situation... slow but unstoppable) Golems are always a great way to make PCs run. Especially if they are supported by archers and maybe a cleric. The PCs won't even be able to think about picking away at the golems from a distance, even if they could damage them. Spread the Golems out so that they can't all be stopped by a Rock to Mud spell or something... - PCs win a small skirmish, and capture an enemy Lieutenant... he sneers that the PCs are too late, and that enemy assassins are already in the city, poised to strike! He thinks the PCs won't have enough time to get back to the city before the strike, or in enough force to split up and warn everyone, leading to the PCs racing back to the capital with the information. - Finally, the PCs would have been pivotal in the Capital battle, but, they don't go back... so you have the Capital fall into enemy hands. Consequences. Good luck.