Can you really swing a gnome at someone effectively? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can you really swing a gnome at someone effectively? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Durick
03-27-04, 11:59 AM This deals with a weapon in the Complete Warrior, but I'm looking for advice from other DM's so I think I'm posting in the right spot.

I have a player who wants to use a Warmace from the Complete Warrior. For those unfamiliar it is normally a two-handed martial weapon, but with exotic weapon proficiency you can use it one handed. The problem I have is that he wants to up the size category and use it two handed with the exotic weapon proficiency feat. The reason is obvious, it would up the damage dice from d12 to 3d6 (according to a chart in the PHB).

The different things I'm weighing in my mind for and against this are as follows:
For: He's burning a feat to be able to use it at all and there is a -1 AC for using the thing anyway (which I'm considering raising to -2 for this incarnation of the weapon).
Against: Techincally, it's already a two-handed weapon for a medium creature, and thus a one-handed weapon for a Large creature, what he wants has to be used two handed even by a Large creature. He's the feat, I mean fighter, class, so one feat isn't that big of a deal to him. It weighs ten pound already, this change would make it 20 pounds... that's bigger than any weapon in the PHB by 5 lbs (Orc Double Axe is 15 lb). From my understanding this thing's actual size would be small, so it would be like swinging a gnome at someone...

I'm looking for other's opinion on whether it should be allowed and reasons for your decision.
Burgundy Lotus
03-27-04, 12:06 PM I'd allow it. It would be tough to find one in a treasure horde so he'd only really be able to get one if he bought it or commisioned it.
That'll take time and money, the extra few hp damage he'll do (average of 6.5 changes to 13.5) won't make up for the cost in both gp and feats. At least to me anyways.
Savras
03-27-04, 12:12 PM No.
Seems munchkiny.

Also, as you said, it'd be like swinging a gnome at someone... seems unwieldy.

Savras
Durick
03-27-04, 03:20 PM c'mon, thirty-six views, two responses...

I'm really interested in some more opinions on this, and thanks to those who posted those two :D
MinusInnocence
03-27-04, 03:25 PM I agree that it should be impossible for him to use it. As you already said, it's meant to be used in two hands ANYway. Now, if he also got the feat Monkey Grip (a feat I despise for how ridiculous it really is), which allows you to use a weapon too large for you to wield in one hand... that would be a different story (personally, I would still say no).

90% of the stuff in the non-three-original-core-tomes is crap. Sift through it and discard what you will, your game will be better for it.
Tolstoy
03-27-04, 04:00 PM Why does he want to do it? The answer is to do more damage...Make him have to take weapon focus in the thing as well to use it...Thus, it would be almost the same as taking WS...Thus, you give him another option, and you would not be saying no to his idea...
nevick
03-27-04, 04:27 PM I for one wouldnt just allow it, I would encourage using gnomes to bash stuff!
guru7892
03-27-04, 04:32 PM well unless you mace has alchemists fire with it its not like weilding a gnome

its more like a halfling...
celloshane
03-28-04, 03:37 AM We just got done discussing basically the same thing on the PHB boards, only the weapon in question was the Dwarven Waraxe.

The long and short of it is, he can't do it without additional feats or magical enhancements.

The most recent FAQ states that a Bastard Sword is still considered a 2 handed weapon even though it can be used in one hand.

Through the discussion in the other thread we determined 3 ways to make this happen:
A- Enchant the weapon with the Balanced property from Arms and Equipment Guide. This allows you to treat a large weapon as a medium.
B- Take the Monkey Grip feat. This leaves you with the -2 penalty,
but I believe the weapon could then be wielded in one hand without additional penalties.
C- Create the weapon with magically treated Gold or Platinum as described in Magic of Faerun. The wielder would take a -4 penalty that an EWP would remove.
Wayne
03-28-04, 02:40 PM Take the Monkey Grip feat. This leaves you with the -2 penalty, but I believe the weapon could then be wielded in one hand without additional penalties.

According to CW, in 3.5 Monkey Grip simply allows the user to use a weapon one size category larger than he is with a -2 penalty... not [as in 3.0] making a two-handed weapon a one-handed one (although, since-- as an example-- a Large longsword and a greatsword are effectively the same thing, you can logically use Monkey Grip the old way as well; it's just not by-the-book).

So... yes, with Monkey Grip he could use the a larger version of the Warmace (which is normally two-handed, right?), still as a two-handed weapon (and obviously his EWP, if he had one, no longer applies, since it's not the same weapon anymore). Since CW came out I've been hearing about Barbarians using oversized greataxes and two-handed swords. And to think with the old Monkey Grip the worst we had to worry about were people dual-wielding Large weapons (and with the -6 penalty, it didn't happen often...).
celloshane
03-28-04, 03:24 PM Okay, thanks for the clarification Wayne. I knew Monkey Grip could be used, I just wasn't sure if the EWP could still be applied.
Kalrin
03-28-04, 03:49 PM *Nods to Wayne* thank's for clarifying some things...

I run a Dragonlance game during Winter and Summer Breaks. Now if you look at my sig, you'll see that I don't quite have some of the problems most 3.5 people do, and I'm also quite willing to houserule something that I view as broken (although I'm nice about it).

I had a player come to me asking to do this kind of thing with a Greatsword. My Solution:

I'll allow it (I was being nice. CW is allowed in that game, although Sword and Fist is). Also, Read DMG 3.0 page 162 the chart there: Damage goes to 2d8 not 3d6.
Skimpy Red Bikini
03-28-04, 04:31 PM Unfortunately in 3.5 the PHB goes from D12 to 3D6
ECOM
03-28-04, 05:06 PM If he wants to use the larger weapon he should take the monkey grip feat with the (-2 penalty) that is what the feat is for.

taking the exotic weapon feat would allow him to use a normal size maul with one hand (no penalty) he could still use it with two hands if he wanted to.

taking both feats would allow him to use a larger maul one handed.

i think that your player is trying to get around the -2 penalty for using the oversized weaponwith monkey grip.
Wayne
03-28-04, 05:52 PM Hey, no problem. It's pretty rare I get to field a question before the more knowledgeable get to it first. :]

taking both feats would allow him to use a larger maul one handed.

Not if he was normal (Medium)-sized. The Warmace is normally a two-handed weapon, and the EWP allows someone Medium-sized to use it with one hand (a Large character can do that already). Now, if it was a Large Warmace, it's two-handed for a Large character, and one-handed for them with the appropriate EWP. A Medium character can't use a Large warmace at all (one- or two-handed) without Monkey Grip, in which case they can use it two-handed-- and the normal EWP doesn't apply, since it's not a Medium Warmace anymore (it's Large).

If he became Large later on (maybe from Enlarge Person or something similar) his EWP would work again, and he could use it one-handed. The key is the Monkey Grip description, where it states "The effort it takes you to use the weapon does not change"-- the normal restrictions for weapon/character size apply.
Durick
03-28-04, 06:18 PM Thanks for the replies, everyone. Based on the info provided I don't think I'm gonna allow him to use the larger warmace. Primarily because I think the Monkey Grip feat is dumb, if for nothing else than the picture provided in the Complete Warrior...
Steelwill
03-28-04, 10:14 PM I see 2 options:

1. Allow it to be usable in 2 hands ONLY by a medium creature with the expenditure of an exotic weapon feat. Look to the Fullblade/Ogre's Great Sword in Arms and Equipment Guide for a similar example. However, it is contradicted by Sowrd and Fist, which dissalows the Fullblade's use by a medium creature at all. I still recommend looking in the A&E Guide for a possible example.

2. Only allow its use as an improvised weapon, or a mis-sized weapon, possibly adding that a minimum strngth stat is required to wield such a massive weapon.

My 2 cents I hope it helps.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Durick 03-27-04, 11:59 AM	This deals with a weapon in the Complete Warrior, but I'm looking for advice from other DM's so I think I'm posting in the right spot. I have a player who wants to use a Warmace from the Complete Warrior. For those unfamiliar it is normally a two-handed martial weapon, but with exotic weapon proficiency you can use it one handed. The problem I have is that he wants to up the size category and use it two handed with the exotic weapon proficiency feat. The reason is obvious, it would up the damage dice from d12 to 3d6 (according to a chart in the PHB). The different things I'm weighing in my mind for and against this are as follows: For: He's burning a feat to be able to use it at all and there is a -1 AC for using the thing anyway (which I'm considering raising to -2 for this incarnation of the weapon). Against: Techincally, it's already a two-handed weapon for a medium creature, and thus a one-handed weapon for a Large creature, what he wants has to be used two handed even by a Large creature. He's the feat, I mean fighter, class, so one feat isn't that big of a deal to him. It weighs ten pound already, this change would make it 20 pounds... that's bigger than any weapon in the PHB by 5 lbs (Orc Double Axe is 15 lb). From my understanding this thing's actual size would be small, so it would be like swinging a gnome at someone... I'm looking for other's opinion on whether it should be allowed and reasons for your decision.
Burgundy Lotus 03-27-04, 12:06 PM	I'd allow it. It would be tough to find one in a treasure horde so he'd only really be able to get one if he bought it or commisioned it. That'll take time and money, the extra few hp damage he'll do (average of 6.5 changes to 13.5) won't make up for the cost in both gp and feats. At least to me anyways.
Savras 03-27-04, 12:12 PM	No. Seems munchkiny. Also, as you said, it'd be like swinging a gnome at someone... seems unwieldy. Savras
Durick 03-27-04, 03:20 PM	c'mon, thirty-six views, two responses... I'm really interested in some more opinions on this, and thanks to those who posted those two :D
MinusInnocence 03-27-04, 03:25 PM	I agree that it should be impossible for him to use it. As you already said, it's meant to be used in two hands ANYway. Now, if he also got the feat Monkey Grip (a feat I despise for how ridiculous it really is), which allows you to use a weapon too large for you to wield in one hand... that would be a different story (personally, I would still say no). 90% of the stuff in the non-three-original-core-tomes is crap. Sift through it and discard what you will, your game will be better for it.
Tolstoy 03-27-04, 04:00 PM	Why does he want to do it? The answer is to do more damage...Make him have to take weapon focus in the thing as well to use it...Thus, it would be almost the same as taking WS...Thus, you give him another option, and you would not be saying no to his idea...
nevick 03-27-04, 04:27 PM	I for one wouldnt just allow it, I would encourage using gnomes to bash stuff!
guru7892 03-27-04, 04:32 PM	well unless you mace has alchemists fire with it its not like weilding a gnome its more like a halfling...
celloshane 03-28-04, 03:37 AM	We just got done discussing basically the same thing on the PHB boards, only the weapon in question was the Dwarven Waraxe. The long and short of it is, he can't do it without additional feats or magical enhancements. The most recent FAQ states that a Bastard Sword is still considered a 2 handed weapon even though it can be used in one hand. Through the discussion in the other thread we determined 3 ways to make this happen: A- Enchant the weapon with the Balanced property from Arms and Equipment Guide. This allows you to treat a large weapon as a medium. B- Take the Monkey Grip feat. This leaves you with the -2 penalty, but I believe the weapon could then be wielded in one hand without additional penalties. C- Create the weapon with magically treated Gold or Platinum as described in Magic of Faerun. The wielder would take a -4 penalty that an EWP would remove.
Wayne 03-28-04, 02:40 PM	Take the Monkey Grip feat. This leaves you with the -2 penalty, but I believe the weapon could then be wielded in one hand without additional penalties. According to CW, in 3.5 Monkey Grip simply allows the user to use a weapon one size category larger than he is with a -2 penalty... not [as in 3.0] making a two-handed weapon a one-handed one (although, since-- as an example-- a Large longsword and a greatsword are effectively the same thing, you can logically use Monkey Grip the old way as well; it's just not by-the-book). So... yes, with Monkey Grip he could use the a larger version of the Warmace (which is normally two-handed, right?), still as a two-handed weapon (and obviously his EWP, if he had one, no longer applies, since it's not the same weapon anymore). Since CW came out I've been hearing about Barbarians using oversized greataxes and two-handed swords. And to think with the old Monkey Grip the worst we had to worry about were people dual-wielding Large weapons (and with the -6 penalty, it didn't happen often...).
celloshane 03-28-04, 03:24 PM	Okay, thanks for the clarification Wayne. I knew Monkey Grip could be used, I just wasn't sure if the EWP could still be applied.
Kalrin 03-28-04, 03:49 PM	Nods to Wayne thank's for clarifying some things... I run a Dragonlance game during Winter and Summer Breaks. Now if you look at my sig, you'll see that I don't quite have some of the problems most 3.5 people do, and I'm also quite willing to houserule something that I view as broken (although I'm nice about it). I had a player come to me asking to do this kind of thing with a Greatsword. My Solution: I'll allow it (I was being nice. CW is allowed in that game, although Sword and Fist is). Also, Read DMG 3.0 page 162 the chart there: Damage goes to 2d8 not 3d6.
Skimpy Red Bikini 03-28-04, 04:31 PM	Unfortunately in 3.5 the PHB goes from D12 to 3D6
ECOM 03-28-04, 05:06 PM	If he wants to use the larger weapon he should take the monkey grip feat with the (-2 penalty) that is what the feat is for. taking the exotic weapon feat would allow him to use a normal size maul with one hand (no penalty) he could still use it with two hands if he wanted to. taking both feats would allow him to use a larger maul one handed. i think that your player is trying to get around the -2 penalty for using the oversized weaponwith monkey grip.
Wayne 03-28-04, 05:52 PM	Hey, no problem. It's pretty rare I get to field a question before the more knowledgeable get to it first. :] taking both feats would allow him to use a larger maul one handed. Not if he was normal (Medium)-sized. The Warmace is normally a two-handed weapon, and the EWP allows someone Medium-sized to use it with one hand (a Large character can do that already). Now, if it was a Large Warmace, it's two-handed for a Large character, and one-handed for them with the appropriate EWP. A Medium character can't use a Large warmace at all (one- or two-handed) without Monkey Grip, in which case they can use it two-handed-- and the normal EWP doesn't apply, since it's not a Medium Warmace anymore (it's Large). If he became Large later on (maybe from Enlarge Person or something similar) his EWP would work again, and he could use it one-handed. The key is the Monkey Grip description, where it states "The effort it takes you to use the weapon does not change"-- the normal restrictions for weapon/character size apply.
Durick 03-28-04, 06:18 PM	Thanks for the replies, everyone. Based on the info provided I don't think I'm gonna allow him to use the larger warmace. Primarily because I think the Monkey Grip feat is dumb, if for nothing else than the picture provided in the Complete Warrior...
Steelwill 03-28-04, 10:14 PM	I see 2 options: 1. Allow it to be usable in 2 hands ONLY by a medium creature with the expenditure of an exotic weapon feat. Look to the Fullblade/Ogre's Great Sword in Arms and Equipment Guide for a similar example. However, it is contradicted by Sowrd and Fist, which dissalows the Fullblade's use by a medium creature at all. I still recommend looking in the A&E Guide for a possible example. 2. Only allow its use as an improvised weapon, or a mis-sized weapon, possibly adding that a minimum strngth stat is required to wield such a massive weapon. My 2 cents I hope it helps.