Post/Author/DateTime	Post
thadrine 09-02-06, 12:40 PM	Can a character act to make a saving through when they are stunned? Stunned says they can not act. Saving throws, especially Reflex, are still passive actions that your character does. So would you automatically fail all saving throws when stunned?
Bob Loblaw 09-02-06, 12:43 PM	You can attempt any saving throw when you are stunned.
Reinforcements 09-02-06, 12:59 PM	You would automatically fail Reflex saves, I think, but that's it. Neither Fortitude nor Will saves depend on your character moving at all.
Feriin 09-02-06, 01:42 PM	You would automatically fail Reflex saves, I think, but that's it. Neither Fortitude nor Will saves depend on your character moving at all. This is incorrect, saving throws are passive. The only thing that a stunned person would lose would be his dex modifier to reflex, he still gets the saving throw.
Purkake 09-02-06, 01:43 PM	You would automatically fail Reflex saves, I think, but that's it. Neither Fortitude nor Will saves depend on your character moving at all. No you won't auto-fail reflex saves. You don't even get a penalty. Edit: also he will not lose his dex modifier to reflex saves, it only applies to your armor class. Stunned A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).
CrippleMrOnion 09-02-06, 02:21 PM	As the previous posters said, you can indeed save when stunned. You can save when asleep, helpless, unconscious, pinned, and basically everything but dead. Some of these have penalties, and others don't. I've read/heard/maybe just made up that reflex saves are part speed and part luck. Maybe that fireball just fizzled in the area where you were standing, maybe you dodged out of the way. Good Gaming!
Feriin 09-02-06, 02:34 PM	No you won't auto-fail reflex saves. You don't even get a penalty. Edit: also he will not lose his dex modifier to reflex saves, it only applies to your armor class. I think that is wrong, however so far I have not been able to find anything to dispute it. I am still looking though.
Archangel62 09-02-06, 02:39 PM	This reminds me a of a rogue in my games who would manage to succeed really really well when he was asleep or prone. The funnier one though was that in the same campaign this quote popped up "The Dwarf has more AC in his pajamas than I do in my armor!"
Zherog 09-02-06, 02:47 PM	I think that is wrong, however so far I have not been able to find anything to dispute it. I am still looking though. You won't find it; Purkake is completely correct.
Moon-Lancer 09-02-06, 02:58 PM	2nded.
Feriin 09-02-06, 03:07 PM	You won't find it; Purkake is completely correct. The only things I can find is that you can't take any action. (as quoted above).Also that a Reflex save says.... Reflex save: A type of saving throw, related to a character's ability to withstand damage thanks to his agility or quick reactions. Reaction: 1. Responsive action. 2. The action of a muscle, nerve,organ,ect., in response to a stimulus; reflex action.
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-02-06, 03:15 PM	Reaction: 1. Responsive action. 2. The action of a muscle, nerve,organ,ect., in response to a stimulus; reflex action. Not going to cut it - unless you want to call any stunning effect instant death. The heart beating is the action of a muscle/organ, you know.
Feriin 09-02-06, 03:18 PM	Not going to cut it - unless you want to call any stunning effect instant death. The heart beating is the action of a muscle/organ, you know. Yeah , I admit it is a weak arguement at best. I wasn't originally attempting to make a Reflex save an action, I was trying to prove that the dex modifier was lost while stunned.
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-02-06, 03:25 PM	Stunned: A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). ;)
Purkake 09-02-06, 03:25 PM	You won't find it; Purkake is completely correct. Mwhahahaha. Someone finally admits it. :shifty:Thanks:shifty:
Atirakis 09-02-06, 06:39 PM	It may be RAW that you get a reflex save but common sense must always override RAW. :rolleyes:
Sapp 09-02-06, 06:48 PM	I understand that stunned != unconscious ... but a thought reoccured to me: I believe unconscious PCs are always considered "willing creatures" (for the purposes of teleport and many other spells/effects). It's funny how unconscious creatures still have Will saves.
Nom 09-03-06, 10:27 PM	It's funny how unconscious creatures still have Will saves.Why not? Your body doesn't suddenly become more susceptible to magic just because you're asleep; why should your mind be any different? One could equally as well argue that you should be immune to charm person or dominate person while you're asleep because your conscious mind is inactive and there's nothing to affect. The only Will saves that should be affected by being asleep are those that require a conscious choice or thought process. Illusions are an obvious example. In contrast, Will saves sometimes represent "innate resilience against magic", such as against inflict spells or scrying; you don't need to be conscious to resist these since the resistance is not choice-based or active; it happens automatically. Will saves are the default save type unless Fort or Ref is obviously applicable.
Feriin 09-03-06, 10:33 PM	Why not? Your body doesn't suddenly become more susceptible to magic just because you're asleep; why should your mind be any different? There is a huge difference between sub-conscious and unconscious. When you are asleep you are Sub-conscious, If you are Knocked Out then you are Unconscious. ]