Can you sunder a body? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can you sunder a body? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Enaka
10-14-03, 09:03 AM Hello everyone I am new to the board so forgive me for not knowing any previous discussion.

My question to you is, can someone sunder a certain body part.

During my current game I have a monk that has taken all the appropriate feats (Eagle Claw Attack, Sunder, Improved sunder....) to sunder weapons. Well one time he got the bright idea to sunder a persons head (basically to take his eyes) I had said no he could not use this feat for this, I then took a look at the Hydra, whose heads you must sunder in order to take them off (i realize this is one of the hydras weapons, but is not the humanoid mouth the same?). And now I do not know what to do. He also likes to use his sunder in-order to break some of my NPC monk's hands.

Can he rightfully sunder body parts, since the feat does not clarify weapon from body part;it does not clarify in 3.5 either except, only hiting objects attached to the opponent.

Also can he break another monk's hands since they are that monk's chosen weapons (that is to say if you do not believe sunder gain be used againist body parts and only weapons)

Also now I am thinking of it can the Improved sunder, (3.0)sword and fist (now known as greater sunder in 3.5) the feat that alows you to double damage an object/possible body part, able to do double damage to breaking doors, walls, windows, rocks, etc....

Basically what I need to know is what are the limits to this feat. Is it limited to objects that are in combat, or able to be used againist a body part, and objects in non-combat.

My opinion is, I see nothing wrong with it used againist weapons/body parts/non-combat objects. Plz give me some feed back on what you would allow.
Malben
10-14-03, 09:16 AM It's limited to objects, I'm afraid. Consider the limitations of the d20 system -- it just doesn't lend itself to the idea that you can selectively break parts of a person's anatomy.

So in your example about the monk . . . nope, you can't just break his hands. You have to kill him or knock him unconscious. The simplest reason for this answer is that if you sunder, say, a longsword, your attack has to overcome hardness and then deals damage to the longsword's hit point total. If you try to sunder a monk's fist, you're basically dealing damage to the character's hit point total. So you could, I guess, sunder his fist . . . by killing him.
MinusInnocence
10-14-03, 09:16 AM First of all, I can't find Greater Sunder. You say it originally appeared in 3.0 as part of Sword & Fist, did you find its new version in a web enhancement or something? Anyway, yes, Sundering applies to any action taken by a character that tries to break an inanimate object.

All objects (not Constructs, though, they are a separate issue) have a Hardness rating, an HP total, and a flat Break DC. The Break DC is usually totally insane, and traditionally, you can't work toward it while in combat; you can think up any contrived reason for this that you like.

However, outside combat, you may find that the Break DC is still beyond your means. So, the next best thing is trying to surpass hardness and just wear the item's HP down. This feat you mention that doubles Sunder damage would be valid against things like doors, rocks, walls, whatever.

As to your first question, no you can't sunder someone's bodypart. It makes sense that you'd be able to but the fact is, you're always trying to go for the most vulnerable spot, where your attack will do optimum damage. Thus, "called shots", as they were called in previous editions and other games, are redundant. More information can be found on this in the FAQ stickied to the top of this forum.
Enaka
10-14-03, 10:46 AM Thank you for the info, I now feel certain that I have made the right choice.

And for you MinusInnoncence First of all, I can't find Greater Sunder. You say it originally appeared in 3.0 as part of Sword & Fist.

What I orignally meant to say was that in 3.0 the feat in the PHB is called sunder and in 3.5 they call it improved sunder even though they do the exact same thing (obviously to clarify the feat). I was just assuming the feat in the supplement, SaF, was now considered Greater Sunder because they have yet to revise the supplements (and I doubt, or at least hope they won't). Sorry for the confusion;)
Fixxxer
10-14-03, 04:45 PM What I orignally meant to say was that in 3.0 the feat in the PHB is called sunder and in 3.5 they call it improved sunder even though they do the exact same thing (obviously to clarify the feat).

The reason for this is that there was an action in 3.0 called "Attack a Weapon/Held Object." In 3.5, it's called "Sunder." The Improved Sunder feat is just that...you're better at sundering an object than someone without the feat.

To directly answer your original question, no you can't sunder a body because a body is not (by very definition) an object (though an inanimate corpse is).
Whaledawg
10-14-03, 05:45 PM I would let him do it, then put him up against his arch-nemisis the evil sundererer(er?). Then, when the cleric goes to heal it say "Hey, there's no rules that say you can heal anything but hit points. Your crippled until you can buy a new hand"

But then again, I'm a jerk :D
Pongolyn
10-14-03, 06:43 PM Called shots (severing a body part, essentially what you're describing) no longer exist in 3.0/3.5, so I'd say no, under the core rules. Hydras are meant to be an exception, since according to legend this was the only way they could be killed.

However, *if* the DM decided to allow specific dismemberment of limbs, they could most certainly use the existing rules for sundering if they wanted to. It would require a bit of math and creativity to determine how many of a person's hit points are allocated to their various body parts to sunder, and not every DM wants to get into that. I certainly don't.

Pongo
Kaya Kenobi
10-14-03, 08:01 PM Originally posted by Pongolyn
Called shots (severing a body part, essentially what you're describing) no longer exist in 3.0/3.5, so I'd say no, under the core rules. Hydras are meant to be an exception, since according to legend this was the only way they could be killed.

However, *if* the DM decided to allow specific dismemberment of limbs, they could most certainly use the existing rules for sundering if they wanted to. It would require a bit of math and creativity to determine how many of a person's hit points are allocated to their various body parts to sunder, and not every DM wants to get into that. I certainly don't.

Pongo

However, if they didn't exist, then how do vorpal weapons, caltrops, and even severing hydra heads work?

3.0 is screwed up in the way called shots were taken out, so I actually use the called shots variant rule.
Whaledawg
10-14-03, 09:17 PM However, if they didn't exist, then how do vorpal weapons, caltrops, and even severing hydra heads work?

As exceptions. Every good rule has exceptions :)

The fact is that called shots in any game are way too abusable. But if you let him do it, like I said, make sure it gets done to him.
Fixxxer
10-15-03, 01:25 AM Originally posted by Kaya Kenobi
However, if they didn't exist, then how do vorpal weapons, caltrops, and even severing hydra heads work?

Vorpal weapons and caltrops are easy, since no new and lengthy mechanics have to be written for them. If they hit, they deal a certain amount of damage (which, in the case of vorpal, happens to be enough to kill the target outright, which is described as severing the target's head).
Kaya Kenobi
10-15-03, 03:59 AM Originally posted by Fixxxer
Vorpal weapons and caltrops are easy, since no new and lengthy mechanics have to be written for them. If they hit, they deal a certain amount of damage (which, in the case of vorpal, happens to be enough to kill the target outright, which is described as severing the target's head).

Even then... It's still considered a "called shot" to sever a head.

Here's another tidbit, called shots was a variant in 3.0, and it's fine with me.. I've played plenty of one eyed or one armed PCs that had the greatest personalities IMHO.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Enaka 10-14-03, 09:03 AM	Hello everyone I am new to the board so forgive me for not knowing any previous discussion. My question to you is, can someone sunder a certain body part. During my current game I have a monk that has taken all the appropriate feats (Eagle Claw Attack, Sunder, Improved sunder....) to sunder weapons. Well one time he got the bright idea to sunder a persons head (basically to take his eyes) I had said no he could not use this feat for this, I then took a look at the Hydra, whose heads you must sunder in order to take them off (i realize this is one of the hydras weapons, but is not the humanoid mouth the same?). And now I do not know what to do. He also likes to use his sunder in-order to break some of my NPC monk's hands. Can he rightfully sunder body parts, since the feat does not clarify weapon from body part;it does not clarify in 3.5 either except, only hiting objects attached to the opponent. Also can he break another monk's hands since they are that monk's chosen weapons (that is to say if you do not believe sunder gain be used againist body parts and only weapons) Also now I am thinking of it can the Improved sunder, (3.0)sword and fist (now known as greater sunder in 3.5) the feat that alows you to double damage an object/possible body part, able to do double damage to breaking doors, walls, windows, rocks, etc.... Basically what I need to know is what are the limits to this feat. Is it limited to objects that are in combat, or able to be used againist a body part, and objects in non-combat. My opinion is, I see nothing wrong with it used againist weapons/body parts/non-combat objects. Plz give me some feed back on what you would allow.
Malben 10-14-03, 09:16 AM	It's limited to objects, I'm afraid. Consider the limitations of the d20 system -- it just doesn't lend itself to the idea that you can selectively break parts of a person's anatomy. So in your example about the monk . . . nope, you can't just break his hands. You have to kill him or knock him unconscious. The simplest reason for this answer is that if you sunder, say, a longsword, your attack has to overcome hardness and then deals damage to the longsword's hit point total. If you try to sunder a monk's fist, you're basically dealing damage to the character's hit point total. So you could, I guess, sunder his fist . . . by killing him.
MinusInnocence 10-14-03, 09:16 AM	First of all, I can't find Greater Sunder. You say it originally appeared in 3.0 as part of Sword & Fist, did you find its new version in a web enhancement or something? Anyway, yes, Sundering applies to any action taken by a character that tries to break an inanimate object. All objects (not Constructs, though, they are a separate issue) have a Hardness rating, an HP total, and a flat Break DC. The Break DC is usually totally insane, and traditionally, you can't work toward it while in combat; you can think up any contrived reason for this that you like. However, outside combat, you may find that the Break DC is still beyond your means. So, the next best thing is trying to surpass hardness and just wear the item's HP down. This feat you mention that doubles Sunder damage would be valid against things like doors, rocks, walls, whatever. As to your first question, no you can't sunder someone's bodypart. It makes sense that you'd be able to but the fact is, you're always trying to go for the most vulnerable spot, where your attack will do optimum damage. Thus, "called shots", as they were called in previous editions and other games, are redundant. More information can be found on this in the FAQ stickied to the top of this forum.
Enaka 10-14-03, 10:46 AM	Thank you for the info, I now feel certain that I have made the right choice. And for you MinusInnoncence First of all, I can't find Greater Sunder. You say it originally appeared in 3.0 as part of Sword & Fist. What I orignally meant to say was that in 3.0 the feat in the PHB is called sunder and in 3.5 they call it improved sunder even though they do the exact same thing (obviously to clarify the feat). I was just assuming the feat in the supplement, SaF, was now considered Greater Sunder because they have yet to revise the supplements (and I doubt, or at least hope they won't). Sorry for the confusion;)
Fixxxer 10-14-03, 04:45 PM	What I orignally meant to say was that in 3.0 the feat in the PHB is called sunder and in 3.5 they call it improved sunder even though they do the exact same thing (obviously to clarify the feat). The reason for this is that there was an action in 3.0 called "Attack a Weapon/Held Object." In 3.5, it's called "Sunder." The Improved Sunder feat is just that...you're better at sundering an object than someone without the feat. To directly answer your original question, no you can't sunder a body because a body is not (by very definition) an object (though an inanimate corpse is).
Whaledawg 10-14-03, 05:45 PM	I would let him do it, then put him up against his arch-nemisis the evil sundererer(er?). Then, when the cleric goes to heal it say "Hey, there's no rules that say you can heal anything but hit points. Your crippled until you can buy a new hand" But then again, I'm a jerk :D
Pongolyn 10-14-03, 06:43 PM	Called shots (severing a body part, essentially what you're describing) no longer exist in 3.0/3.5, so I'd say no, under the core rules. Hydras are meant to be an exception, since according to legend this was the only way they could be killed. However, if the DM decided to allow specific dismemberment of limbs, they could most certainly use the existing rules for sundering if they wanted to. It would require a bit of math and creativity to determine how many of a person's hit points are allocated to their various body parts to sunder, and not every DM wants to get into that. I certainly don't. Pongo
Kaya Kenobi 10-14-03, 08:01 PM	Originally posted by Pongolyn Called shots (severing a body part, essentially what you're describing) no longer exist in 3.0/3.5, so I'd say no, under the core rules. Hydras are meant to be an exception, since according to legend this was the only way they could be killed. However, if the DM decided to allow specific dismemberment of limbs, they could most certainly use the existing rules for sundering if they wanted to. It would require a bit of math and creativity to determine how many of a person's hit points are allocated to their various body parts to sunder, and not every DM wants to get into that. I certainly don't. Pongo However, if they didn't exist, then how do vorpal weapons, caltrops, and even severing hydra heads work? 3.0 is screwed up in the way called shots were taken out, so I actually use the called shots variant rule.
Whaledawg 10-14-03, 09:17 PM	However, if they didn't exist, then how do vorpal weapons, caltrops, and even severing hydra heads work? As exceptions. Every good rule has exceptions :) The fact is that called shots in any game are way too abusable. But if you let him do it, like I said, make sure it gets done to him.
Fixxxer 10-15-03, 01:25 AM	Originally posted by Kaya Kenobi However, if they didn't exist, then how do vorpal weapons, caltrops, and even severing hydra heads work? Vorpal weapons and caltrops are easy, since no new and lengthy mechanics have to be written for them. If they hit, they deal a certain amount of damage (which, in the case of vorpal, happens to be enough to kill the target outright, which is described as severing the target's head).
Kaya Kenobi 10-15-03, 03:59 AM	Originally posted by Fixxxer Vorpal weapons and caltrops are easy, since no new and lengthy mechanics have to be written for them. If they hit, they deal a certain amount of damage (which, in the case of vorpal, happens to be enough to kill the target outright, which is described as severing the target's head). Even then... It's still considered a "called shot" to sever a head. Here's another tidbit, called shots was a variant in 3.0, and it's fine with me.. I've played plenty of one eyed or one armed PCs that had the greatest personalities IMHO.