can you take up this cup??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

can you take up this cup??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Snytherion
12-15-04, 07:49 AM hi

The paladin(lvl2) in my player group has been naughty and will have to go on an atonement quest. He will have to help another paladin (lvl5) defeat an vampiress and scatter her undead forces. Now I want to use this as a quest for the entire party and not just for the paladin who will get his powers back somewhere halfway through the quest. However the paladin feels this is something he should do on his own and has forbidden the players to come along.
I am thinking to have the paladin ask them to come along since he can use all the help he can get and since he is higher ranked than the player paladin he will not be too much of a problem. Is this a good idea???
Also one of the party members is in jail (his own stupid mistake and he deserves to sit out the next two months of his sentence) but I would like him to come along otherwise the timing of the rest of the world will be seriously compromised (I need time while I let the thievesguild pull strings to have the party banned from the city). So if this character is still in jail at that time the party would have to leave him behind and I don't want that to happen.
Should I have the high level paladin talk to the officials and have him released??

finally, could you give your opinion on how to handel this?
The thievesguild, the players are about to unravel a small section of, has enough power in the city counsil (members, bribery) to have the players banned from the city and have their possesions confiscated. However I want to have the players deal with the entire guild in the city. The guild streches out through half the nation (the other half is the domain of a rival guild) and the party will come into contact with them at other times however I would really want to have them deal with this part now (otherwise I will have to plan so much more).

thanks in advance
alecthemad
12-15-04, 08:38 AM Have the NPC paladin take matters into his own hands.

"You need companions for a quest this dangerous. Who will guard our sleep? Who will assist us when times become difficult? You and your friend in jail are both in need of redemption."

Now the cool part is I'm thinking the NPC paladin will be killed by the head vampire (Marge Simpson) and come back as a blackguard vampire. The thief can be blamed for this by the thieves guild and his friends by association. You also get a cool new minion which the PC paladin may have a tough time killing. Also, he will know many of the party's tactics and abilities.
Dash Branaghan
12-15-04, 10:27 AM While I don't agree with the blackguard vampire idea, I do agree that the Paladin in Command should advise the PC paladin not to be a metal wrapped wienie. Yes, he needs to atone, but atoning doesn't have to be done alone against impossible odds...after all, the higher level paladin is helping him...would he like the higher level paladin to stand down? Have the NPC point out that part of atonement is redemption, but part of it is wisdom as well...knowing when you are outmatched and taking steps to ensure the outcome is a victory for good.

The character in prison can have his sentence converted to community service if he swears to join the paladin in his quest. It gets him out of the city jails, and he might just do something good while he is at it.

As far as the thieves guild, that is up to you. Personally, I don't think banning the PCs is necessary...I think assassinating them one by one might be necessary if they cross the path of the thieves guild too often.

Dash
tackleberry
12-15-04, 11:41 AM i actually quite like the idea that atonement is done against nearly impossible odds - it shouldn't be easy!
remember - DM'd and played well, this is the stuff of tales and legend as the paladin nearly dies on his quest to atone!
but if this needs to be run as a group adventure and not an individual side trek the paladin is told that he doesnt understand fully the nature of his atonement: charged with not just completing his quest to atone - part of his atonement is to bring light into the lives of his companions and show them by example! he is ordered to take his companions with him - how will they be 'saved' otherwise?
i quite like the vampire blackguard idea but not as a tool to set up the thief or even as a cool enemy - more like a roleplaying opportunity as the pc paladins peer is destroyed and tainted by evil before his eyes.
you see, the reason the npc paladin was sent on this quest was deliberate, and with the full knowledge that the vampire would kill him and turn him to one of her own: the pc paladins final lesson in atonement is in how he handles this situation knowing that he has no choice but to destroy this mockery of his former self but one that was also a friend!
and now he must live with the knowledge that the npc paladin sacrificed himself in order to show him how precious his paladinhood is.
ThatDarnCat
12-15-04, 11:51 AM You could comute the Rogue's sentence to service and keep him on task with a Quest spell.

As for the PC Paladin, if he refuses to allow the other PCs to help a simple rewording of the requirements for completing his Atonement can help. After all, the purrsons responcible for giving him the this quest could include that he gather trusted allies to assist him.

As an aside, my favorite example of the Quest spell and how they worked and how they should be used was from the 1E. The accompanying artwork had a high priest giving a quest to an underling. The text said: "Get me a bar of soap!"
deadDMwalking
12-15-04, 12:17 PM The thieve's guild might want the party member out of the town, even if he is in prison. If they have concerns about the party, it can't help to have someone in their area. Even prisoners hear things that some people would rather they didn't.

So, the thieve's guild, using the council, could suggest to the NPC paladin to take all the party, including the member in jail. A Geas spell would be appropriate.

The PC Paladin doesn't have the authority to forbid his party members to come along. It can be a fun role-playing situation. The PC Paladin meets the NPC paladin. "I'm ready to go".
"Where are your companions?"
"I told them not to come."
"You what?! What were you thinking! Do you want us to both die?!"

PC: "ummm... No?"
Guryaa, Turtle Cat
12-15-04, 01:18 PM As far as the thieves guild, that is up to you. Personally, I don't think banning the PCs is necessary...I think assassinating them one by one might be necessary if they cross the path of the thieves guild too often.

Dash

Yes, killing them might be an option. However, liquidations always leaves a mess and traces, even if you have a lot of influence in the city. Those darn adventurers are almost always tough cookies to crack and if you kill them, friends of them might show up and start digging to find out what exactly happened.

An issue of Dragon featured an article about a guild of Merchants called the Reapers of Strife. Among some other things, the article gave some pretty good suggestions on how to get rid of nosy adventurers: make them feel unwelcome. At most, this will only cost a few goldpieces here and there plus some threatening to the right persons but it can make normal life to the PCs in the city harder, if not impossible.

Nothing says a big, silent "leave this town" quite like shortage of vital adventuring supplies, steep price increases, unwelcomeness in any inn or lack of help from any NPC.
Dash Branaghan
12-15-04, 04:50 PM Yes, killing them might be an option. However, liquidations always leaves a mess and traces, even if you have a lot of influence in the city. Those darn adventurers are almost always tough cookies to crack and if you kill them, friends of them might show up and start digging to find out what exactly happened.

Haha...dipping them in the acid of a black dragon or disintegrating them hardly counts as a mess. :D And of course, there are all those poisons that are virtually traceless when the person is dead. Nope, killing them doesn't have to be messy, and there are ways to get rid of a body so that no one would ever know they were there (I refer of course to the pet Bulette in the basement).

Nothing says a big, silent "leave this town" quite like shortage of vital adventuring supplies, steep price increases, unwelcomeness in any inn or lack of help from any NPC.

Ooooh, I like. I hadn't even really thought about that, but that might be because my prices are already overinflated as is. But yes, that is an excellent suggestion.

Dash
Callista
12-15-04, 06:58 PM i quite like the vampire blackguard idea but not as a tool to set up the thief or even as a cool enemy - more like a roleplaying opportunity as the pc paladins peer is destroyed and tainted by evil before his eyes.
you see, the reason the npc paladin was sent on this quest was deliberate, and with the full knowledge that the vampire would kill him and turn him to one of her own: the pc paladins final lesson in atonement is in how he handles this situation knowing that he has no choice but to destroy this mockery of his former self but one that was also a friend!
and now he must live with the knowledge that the npc paladin sacrificed himself in order to show him how precious his paladinhood is.

But can your level 2 paladin handle a full-fledged vampire blackguard (CR 9-ish)? I would say "no"; and that would make it a rather dangerous risk for the level 5 paladin, since not only will he end up dead, but so will the level 2 paladin. Even a "the new blackguard/vampire runs away, to be killed by the PCs when they're more powerful" deal wouldn't work very well, because if it's a conscious decision by your level 5 paladin NPC, can he really conscience dying, and having his now-evil body do a lot of evil things before it's stopped? Probably not, unless he's doing this in a way so as to imprison himself (say, on a deserted island with plenty of animals and no people) after the transformation.

If you want to do anything like this, you'll have to use the "foretold in prophecy" gimmick. I.e., the level 5 guy knows that it's foretold that the PC is supposed to do some great deed, but he can't do so unless he first learns the lesson that "killing former friends turned evil is sometimes necessary", by (in some foretold way) killing a paladin-turned-vampire/blackguard. Or something like that. Tweak as necessary.

If you don't want to have an insanely overpowered opponent versus your PCs, try changing that level 5 paladin to a level 4; he'll turn into vampire spawn instead, a challenge the party probably *can* handle.
tackleberry
12-16-04, 03:25 AM yeah - i should have been clearer, as i stated - it was the roleplaying opportunity that this situation would present - it wasnt fighting the level 5 paladins' blackguard/vampire that was going to be the challenge (agreed this would be too difficult a fight) it was more to do with the situation.
i had an image in my head of the paladin changing steadilly, not immediately in order for the pc to fully understand that if he doesnt sacrifice the paladin, he will turn into this powerful creature of darkness!
Callista
12-16-04, 03:59 AM Hmm... what are the rules on how fast a creature changes into a vampire, anyway? And... ouch. You really like to torture your poor players' paladins, don't you! He's gonna be scarred for years (I like it... :))

Do make sure the pal 5 has some sort of initiative to deliberately get himself turned. He's got to have a heckuva good reason to do something like that; it's risky, it's creating an evil creature, and unless your NPC paladin can be sure there won't be evil effects from taking such a risk, it could even cause your NPC to lose his powers. *points to It Has Been Foretold idea* Nice example to the PC that'd be.

Whatever the rules are--you can change them in your campaign, of course. Just be sure you change them only after you've tried everything, and change them for all cases where they apply.
tackleberry
12-16-04, 08:50 AM i agree with changing rules for the good of story, luckilly i have players who are of the same mind set as me in that roleplaying opportunities are more important than rules so if there are inconsistencies they dont mind too much - most inconsistencies that turn up are very minor but if they are THAT important that they should be houseruled then so be it - its a small price to pay for a truly amazing story!
you are dead right about the 'why' the npc paladin would risk it so maybe he didnt know what exactly was going to happen?
the gods move in mysterious ways and its possible the npc paladin and the church just knew that something was going to happen where the pc would have to make a choice. just not the exact nature of the test. the npc paladin did know however taht it would be his life forefeit in order to truly show the pc paladin atonement.
if rules get in the way of interesting and dramatic situations i apply artistic license!!! the story is so much more important.
back to the subject through, i truly beleive that there should be more attached to atonement than just a tough fight! :D
Snytherion
12-17-04, 03:45 AM thanks for the replies!!!!

I like most of the ideas, however this was what I was going for:
They help him destroy the minions but fail to slay the vamp as she vapourises and flees. In helping the lvl 5 paladin a friendship is forged and they part as friends the NPC goes on to search for the vamp the PCs do something else.
After two or three adventures they gt a message for the NPC pala to meet him somewhere to help him. When they get there he is allready gone and a note tells them where to go.
When they get in the misty valley where he was last there is no trace of him. they start to search and eventually find him. Only to find out that he has been bitten and changed to the vampiress champion, claiming to defend his ladies honour. They fight him etc... and find out that the vamp is planning to bite all nobles and they go on a chase to stop her (they get a clue, they go to the noble, must gain his trust, protect him from a sorceror vamp... and then when she gets away start all over again).
As far as banning, I think it is necesary since indeed slaying them in the city leaves traces. Plus the paladin owns a house in town and i need a way to steal that from him the legal way (and selling it would create unfairness). After they've been banned assasins will be sent after them and since the guild stretches half the nation that is no problem

what do you think and thanks again for the replies
tackleberry
12-17-04, 08:20 AM sounds ok - you have taken the paladins quest for atonement and spun it into a full blown adventure hook! run with it if you need to.

i personally would keep the atonement quest as a side trek and not be tempted to spin it out into a yarn.
if you wish the npc paladin to return at some point as a recurring npc - leave it along time before re-introducing him for dramatic effect. (see below*)

i still think taht the price of atonement needs to be very high - a price must be paid to truly test the paladins determination and true desire to atone.

* in one story i ran, the first adventure was four the group to help a ranger search for his missing companion, the ranger was a well liked, good hearted and loyal friend - someone you really want at your side in a fight. when they found the companion, something went wrong (long story involving a boiling oil trap and a grease spell cast by the bbeg) - and she (the missing companion) died. it wasnt scripted or planned, it just turned out that way as the group amde their escape.
12 levels later, he turned up again - he was a shadow of his former self, he lost all confidence in his abilities after failing to save his friend and was an alchoholic bum on the city streets. it was bloody fantastic to see the pcs actually give a damn and help this soul on the road to recovery and regaining his abilities and self esteem!
Callista
12-17-04, 02:15 PM If you want to be melodramatic about it, you can have the old NPC paladin show through about the time the PCs manage to kill the vampire he's become. Something along the lines of "thanks for killing what I've become"... might be appropriate. :P Or a visit from his spirit in a dream...
Nedlum
12-17-04, 05:07 PM Pride is a sin. Probably a common sin among Paladins especially, but common in general. Grace is not high and mighty: Grace is having fallen so low that up is the only road available.

That the Paladin wants to do this alone speaks to me that he still feels this sin. He must learn to accept humility, understand the world beyond himself, that there are things beyond his ken, that there are deeds that he cannot do alone.

People suggest having the NPC request help as protection, or to redeem the rouge. More important from my view is the message of reliance on others. Faith is the creed of the Paladin, be it faith in his friends or in something beyond his mortal sight.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Snytherion 12-15-04, 07:49 AM	hi The paladin(lvl2) in my player group has been naughty and will have to go on an atonement quest. He will have to help another paladin (lvl5) defeat an vampiress and scatter her undead forces. Now I want to use this as a quest for the entire party and not just for the paladin who will get his powers back somewhere halfway through the quest. However the paladin feels this is something he should do on his own and has forbidden the players to come along. I am thinking to have the paladin ask them to come along since he can use all the help he can get and since he is higher ranked than the player paladin he will not be too much of a problem. Is this a good idea??? Also one of the party members is in jail (his own stupid mistake and he deserves to sit out the next two months of his sentence) but I would like him to come along otherwise the timing of the rest of the world will be seriously compromised (I need time while I let the thievesguild pull strings to have the party banned from the city). So if this character is still in jail at that time the party would have to leave him behind and I don't want that to happen. Should I have the high level paladin talk to the officials and have him released?? finally, could you give your opinion on how to handel this? The thievesguild, the players are about to unravel a small section of, has enough power in the city counsil (members, bribery) to have the players banned from the city and have their possesions confiscated. However I want to have the players deal with the entire guild in the city. The guild streches out through half the nation (the other half is the domain of a rival guild) and the party will come into contact with them at other times however I would really want to have them deal with this part now (otherwise I will have to plan so much more). thanks in advance
alecthemad 12-15-04, 08:38 AM	Have the NPC paladin take matters into his own hands. "You need companions for a quest this dangerous. Who will guard our sleep? Who will assist us when times become difficult? You and your friend in jail are both in need of redemption." Now the cool part is I'm thinking the NPC paladin will be killed by the head vampire (Marge Simpson) and come back as a blackguard vampire. The thief can be blamed for this by the thieves guild and his friends by association. You also get a cool new minion which the PC paladin may have a tough time killing. Also, he will know many of the party's tactics and abilities.
Dash Branaghan 12-15-04, 10:27 AM	While I don't agree with the blackguard vampire idea, I do agree that the Paladin in Command should advise the PC paladin not to be a metal wrapped wienie. Yes, he needs to atone, but atoning doesn't have to be done alone against impossible odds...after all, the higher level paladin is helping him...would he like the higher level paladin to stand down? Have the NPC point out that part of atonement is redemption, but part of it is wisdom as well...knowing when you are outmatched and taking steps to ensure the outcome is a victory for good. The character in prison can have his sentence converted to community service if he swears to join the paladin in his quest. It gets him out of the city jails, and he might just do something good while he is at it. As far as the thieves guild, that is up to you. Personally, I don't think banning the PCs is necessary...I think assassinating them one by one might be necessary if they cross the path of the thieves guild too often. Dash
tackleberry 12-15-04, 11:41 AM	i actually quite like the idea that atonement is done against nearly impossible odds - it shouldn't be easy! remember - DM'd and played well, this is the stuff of tales and legend as the paladin nearly dies on his quest to atone! but if this needs to be run as a group adventure and not an individual side trek the paladin is told that he doesnt understand fully the nature of his atonement: charged with not just completing his quest to atone - part of his atonement is to bring light into the lives of his companions and show them by example! he is ordered to take his companions with him - how will they be 'saved' otherwise? i quite like the vampire blackguard idea but not as a tool to set up the thief or even as a cool enemy - more like a roleplaying opportunity as the pc paladins peer is destroyed and tainted by evil before his eyes. you see, the reason the npc paladin was sent on this quest was deliberate, and with the full knowledge that the vampire would kill him and turn him to one of her own: the pc paladins final lesson in atonement is in how he handles this situation knowing that he has no choice but to destroy this mockery of his former self but one that was also a friend! and now he must live with the knowledge that the npc paladin sacrificed himself in order to show him how precious his paladinhood is.
ThatDarnCat 12-15-04, 11:51 AM	You could comute the Rogue's sentence to service and keep him on task with a Quest spell. As for the PC Paladin, if he refuses to allow the other PCs to help a simple rewording of the requirements for completing his Atonement can help. After all, the purrsons responcible for giving him the this quest could include that he gather trusted allies to assist him. As an aside, my favorite example of the Quest spell and how they worked and how they should be used was from the 1E. The accompanying artwork had a high priest giving a quest to an underling. The text said: "Get me a bar of soap!"
deadDMwalking 12-15-04, 12:17 PM	The thieve's guild might want the party member out of the town, even if he is in prison. If they have concerns about the party, it can't help to have someone in their area. Even prisoners hear things that some people would rather they didn't. So, the thieve's guild, using the council, could suggest to the NPC paladin to take all the party, including the member in jail. A Geas spell would be appropriate. The PC Paladin doesn't have the authority to forbid his party members to come along. It can be a fun role-playing situation. The PC Paladin meets the NPC paladin. "I'm ready to go". "Where are your companions?" "I told them not to come." "You what?! What were you thinking! Do you want us to both die?!" PC: "ummm... No?"
Guryaa, Turtle Cat 12-15-04, 01:18 PM	As far as the thieves guild, that is up to you. Personally, I don't think banning the PCs is necessary...I think assassinating them one by one might be necessary if they cross the path of the thieves guild too often. Dash Yes, killing them might be an option. However, liquidations always leaves a mess and traces, even if you have a lot of influence in the city. Those darn adventurers are almost always tough cookies to crack and if you kill them, friends of them might show up and start digging to find out what exactly happened. An issue of Dragon featured an article about a guild of Merchants called the Reapers of Strife. Among some other things, the article gave some pretty good suggestions on how to get rid of nosy adventurers: make them feel unwelcome. At most, this will only cost a few goldpieces here and there plus some threatening to the right persons but it can make normal life to the PCs in the city harder, if not impossible. Nothing says a big, silent "leave this town" quite like shortage of vital adventuring supplies, steep price increases, unwelcomeness in any inn or lack of help from any NPC.
Dash Branaghan 12-15-04, 04:50 PM	Yes, killing them might be an option. However, liquidations always leaves a mess and traces, even if you have a lot of influence in the city. Those darn adventurers are almost always tough cookies to crack and if you kill them, friends of them might show up and start digging to find out what exactly happened. Haha...dipping them in the acid of a black dragon or disintegrating them hardly counts as a mess. :D And of course, there are all those poisons that are virtually traceless when the person is dead. Nope, killing them doesn't have to be messy, and there are ways to get rid of a body so that no one would ever know they were there (I refer of course to the pet Bulette in the basement). Nothing says a big, silent "leave this town" quite like shortage of vital adventuring supplies, steep price increases, unwelcomeness in any inn or lack of help from any NPC. Ooooh, I like. I hadn't even really thought about that, but that might be because my prices are already overinflated as is. But yes, that is an excellent suggestion. Dash
Callista 12-15-04, 06:58 PM	i quite like the vampire blackguard idea but not as a tool to set up the thief or even as a cool enemy - more like a roleplaying opportunity as the pc paladins peer is destroyed and tainted by evil before his eyes. you see, the reason the npc paladin was sent on this quest was deliberate, and with the full knowledge that the vampire would kill him and turn him to one of her own: the pc paladins final lesson in atonement is in how he handles this situation knowing that he has no choice but to destroy this mockery of his former self but one that was also a friend! and now he must live with the knowledge that the npc paladin sacrificed himself in order to show him how precious his paladinhood is. But can your level 2 paladin handle a full-fledged vampire blackguard (CR 9-ish)? I would say "no"; and that would make it a rather dangerous risk for the level 5 paladin, since not only will he end up dead, but so will the level 2 paladin. Even a "the new blackguard/vampire runs away, to be killed by the PCs when they're more powerful" deal wouldn't work very well, because if it's a conscious decision by your level 5 paladin NPC, can he really conscience dying, and having his now-evil body do a lot of evil things before it's stopped? Probably not, unless he's doing this in a way so as to imprison himself (say, on a deserted island with plenty of animals and no people) after the transformation. If you want to do anything like this, you'll have to use the "foretold in prophecy" gimmick. I.e., the level 5 guy knows that it's foretold that the PC is supposed to do some great deed, but he can't do so unless he first learns the lesson that "killing former friends turned evil is sometimes necessary", by (in some foretold way) killing a paladin-turned-vampire/blackguard. Or something like that. Tweak as necessary. If you don't want to have an insanely overpowered opponent versus your PCs, try changing that level 5 paladin to a level 4; he'll turn into vampire spawn instead, a challenge the party probably can handle.
tackleberry 12-16-04, 03:25 AM	yeah - i should have been clearer, as i stated - it was the roleplaying opportunity that this situation would present - it wasnt fighting the level 5 paladins' blackguard/vampire that was going to be the challenge (agreed this would be too difficult a fight) it was more to do with the situation. i had an image in my head of the paladin changing steadilly, not immediately in order for the pc to fully understand that if he doesnt sacrifice the paladin, he will turn into this powerful creature of darkness!
Callista 12-16-04, 03:59 AM	Hmm... what are the rules on how fast a creature changes into a vampire, anyway? And... ouch. You really like to torture your poor players' paladins, don't you! He's gonna be scarred for years (I like it... :)) Do make sure the pal 5 has some sort of initiative to deliberately get himself turned. He's got to have a heckuva good reason to do something like that; it's risky, it's creating an evil creature, and unless your NPC paladin can be sure there won't be evil effects from taking such a risk, it could even cause your NPC to lose his powers. points to It Has Been Foretold idea Nice example to the PC that'd be. Whatever the rules are--you can change them in your campaign, of course. Just be sure you change them only after you've tried everything, and change them for all cases where they apply.
tackleberry 12-16-04, 08:50 AM	i agree with changing rules for the good of story, luckilly i have players who are of the same mind set as me in that roleplaying opportunities are more important than rules so if there are inconsistencies they dont mind too much - most inconsistencies that turn up are very minor but if they are THAT important that they should be houseruled then so be it - its a small price to pay for a truly amazing story! you are dead right about the 'why' the npc paladin would risk it so maybe he didnt know what exactly was going to happen? the gods move in mysterious ways and its possible the npc paladin and the church just knew that something was going to happen where the pc would have to make a choice. just not the exact nature of the test. the npc paladin did know however taht it would be his life forefeit in order to truly show the pc paladin atonement. if rules get in the way of interesting and dramatic situations i apply artistic license!!! the story is so much more important. back to the subject through, i truly beleive that there should be more attached to atonement than just a tough fight! :D
Snytherion 12-17-04, 03:45 AM	thanks for the replies!!!! I like most of the ideas, however this was what I was going for: They help him destroy the minions but fail to slay the vamp as she vapourises and flees. In helping the lvl 5 paladin a friendship is forged and they part as friends the NPC goes on to search for the vamp the PCs do something else. After two or three adventures they gt a message for the NPC pala to meet him somewhere to help him. When they get there he is allready gone and a note tells them where to go. When they get in the misty valley where he was last there is no trace of him. they start to search and eventually find him. Only to find out that he has been bitten and changed to the vampiress champion, claiming to defend his ladies honour. They fight him etc... and find out that the vamp is planning to bite all nobles and they go on a chase to stop her (they get a clue, they go to the noble, must gain his trust, protect him from a sorceror vamp... and then when she gets away start all over again). As far as banning, I think it is necesary since indeed slaying them in the city leaves traces. Plus the paladin owns a house in town and i need a way to steal that from him the legal way (and selling it would create unfairness). After they've been banned assasins will be sent after them and since the guild stretches half the nation that is no problem what do you think and thanks again for the replies
tackleberry 12-17-04, 08:20 AM	sounds ok - you have taken the paladins quest for atonement and spun it into a full blown adventure hook! run with it if you need to. i personally would keep the atonement quest as a side trek and not be tempted to spin it out into a yarn. if you wish the npc paladin to return at some point as a recurring npc - leave it along time before re-introducing him for dramatic effect. (see below) i still think taht the price of atonement needs to be very high - a price must be paid to truly test the paladins determination and true desire to atone. in one story i ran, the first adventure was four the group to help a ranger search for his missing companion, the ranger was a well liked, good hearted and loyal friend - someone you really want at your side in a fight. when they found the companion, something went wrong (long story involving a boiling oil trap and a grease spell cast by the bbeg) - and she (the missing companion) died. it wasnt scripted or planned, it just turned out that way as the group amde their escape. 12 levels later, he turned up again - he was a shadow of his former self, he lost all confidence in his abilities after failing to save his friend and was an alchoholic bum on the city streets. it was bloody fantastic to see the pcs actually give a damn and help this soul on the road to recovery and regaining his abilities and self esteem!
Callista 12-17-04, 02:15 PM	If you want to be melodramatic about it, you can have the old NPC paladin show through about the time the PCs manage to kill the vampire he's become. Something along the lines of "thanks for killing what I've become"... might be appropriate. :P Or a visit from his spirit in a dream...
Nedlum 12-17-04, 05:07 PM	Pride is a sin. Probably a common sin among Paladins especially, but common in general. Grace is not high and mighty: Grace is having fallen so low that up is the only road available. That the Paladin wants to do this alone speaks to me that he still feels this sin. He must learn to accept humility, understand the world beyond himself, that there are things beyond his ken, that there are deeds that he cannot do alone. People suggest having the NPC request help as protection, or to redeem the rouge. More important from my view is the message of reliance on others. Faith is the creed of the Paladin, be it faith in his friends or in something beyond his mortal sight.