Cannot Challenge a certain PC [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cannot Challenge a certain PC [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tek
02-20-05, 04:34 PM Hey there,

I'm running a level 9 game right now, and while I don't have much trouble challenging many of the PC's in combat, there is one that I just can't seem to harm.

He is a half-celestial swashbuckler, with high AC, spell resistance, and energy resistance. (And even a bit of DR, if I remeber correctly.) I just don't know what to throw at him. I've tried wizards, fighters, rogues, and some various other monsters and such, but I can't get him to 3/4 HP even. I don't want to take down the players HP to 1/20th every combat, but having something ready to give the player a little shock (as he's been getting kind of cocky about it, IC atleast) would be nice.

Any suggestions?
Wizard
02-20-05, 04:45 PM First, you're counting his LA in there, right?

Second, his will save's prolly hurting. Dominate him and let the rest of the party worry about how to take him down. :)
Lord Turambar
02-20-05, 04:47 PM just throw an iron golem at him. It will be able to hit him and they do hurt. the party will have trouble damaging the golem, maybe, depending on weapons and such but they do hurt.
gorzan
02-20-05, 04:50 PM make the scenery of the encounter matter alittle. like.. fighting on ice or something, forcing players to roll balance-checks or fall. or getting ambushed while climbing a cliff, making them roll climb checks each round and such..

also, grapple him for all you are worth! monster grapple modifiers can be rather naughty.
Maniacal_Cackle
02-20-05, 04:52 PM just throw an iron golem at him. It will be able to hit him and they do hurt. the party will have trouble damaging the golem, maybe, depending on weapons and such but they do hurt.

Isn't an iron golem a bit extreme?

And yeah, if you forgot to include LA, that would be a big problem (I think he should be a level 5 character)... Any direct damage spell, come to think of it, would probably be pretty bad for this guy, as his HP are probably pretty low (unless half-celestials get a big bonus to con?) Also, my personal favorite, stat drain! I believe 8 shadows or so would be appropiate for this level?

Although 8 shadows might be a bit much... 8 attacks, each doing 1d6 str... How about a few wraiths instead?
Dark_Tide
02-20-05, 04:54 PM If he's become so strong, his name probably gets around. Have some one fighter (not the class fighter) hear about this PC's skill and have him challege your PC in a one on one duel. Make your new NPC with as many crazy advantages as the PC has. Give him some type of crazy magic weapon. It would surely make for a memorable encounter.
clarkvalentine
02-20-05, 04:54 PM How about another half-celestial swashbuckler?
Nomad4life
02-20-05, 04:55 PM Use antagonists that cause special or ability damage.

Alternately, you could “challenge” him with non-combat related encounters.
Razoreface
02-20-05, 05:15 PM Ditto the LA. With a +4 LA he shouldn't really be that high in the HP department. He's only a sixth level character, with two average hp higher than another sixth level character with d10 hd.

DR 5/magic and he's not resistant to fire or sonic. Basically that means no level 9 humanoid enemy should have a problem with his DR, and about half the offensive elemental spells don't apply to his resistance.

It also depends on what was used to generate stats (since with purely swashbuckler and being stuck in light armor, he shouldn't really have any higher AC than a standard fighter), and this is also where I say; this is what happens when you use the Complete books. Hello power creep. Which could apply to the book or to your player, since if he's getting cocky about his character, he's probably minmaxed to hell and knows it.

So give him clerics. Angry violent clerics, who use Bestow Curse and Sound Burst. Bestow Curse, -6 to Dex. Sound Burst, 1d8 sonic damage no save, save or be dazed.
Nightshade22
02-20-05, 05:21 PM Just make a custom monster matching his abilities, that uses hit-and-run on the party, always leaving them within an inch of their lives.

That ought to cut them down a peg.
Tek
02-20-05, 06:20 PM Lots of great responses here, thanks everyone.

First off, I did account for LA, just to clear that up. I think he just minmaxed the hell out of the character (which everyone in my group does, including me, when I'm not DMing).

Dominate: Your exactly right. His will save is pretty darn low for level 9. Only +3. I'll be sure to use dominate, sounds great. Thanks.

Iron Golem: Looking it over, I'm actually starting to agree with you here. I think I'm going to have the next boss be a Iron Golem that the party can take down. Thanks!

Scenery: Already do so quite frequently, I love using different scenerios then the classic 'you are on a flat piece of ground'.. I've used things such as rope bridges, moving walls, and other things. A slab of ice sounds pretty neat, I'll give that a try.

Shadows and Wraiths: I definetly like the style and the ability drain of these guys. Thanks for the suggestion, I'll throw a few in when I get the chance.
Andrew_980
02-20-05, 06:43 PM three words buddy
You allowed it.
this is why it is bad to allow anything outside the PHB without carefull consideration
Bringslite
02-20-05, 11:04 PM When my LVL 12 group invaded a chillin' Frost Giant lair they were making balance checks every time they were hit or ran/charged. The previously mediocer (sp?) wizard was flying and really shinning for once. The Invincible Pally was on his ass half the time. It was GREAT!!!
icuall
02-20-05, 11:55 PM He is a half-celestial swashbuckler, with high AC, spell resistance, and energy resistance. ...I don't want to take down the players HP to 1/20th every combat, but having something ready to give the player a little shock (as he's been getting kind of cocky about it, IC atleast) would be nice.

Any suggestions?

As I wrote in the title of my response, lets get back to basics with a simple trap?

A large stone block trap that drops out of the ceiling, would do great to a PC without regard to high AC, SR, or energy resistance :D . Or you can isolate him in a room by himself and have the ceiling drop once on him and reset. :D You don't have to kill him as you don't intend to. However, it will make the PC think he is not invincible.

Or you may have him go toe to toe in melee with a high level druid casting "Flame Blade". Higher level caster to overcome your PC's SR, and Flame Blade is Touch Attack to bypass the high AC, and if at least 14th level the Druid gets three attacks (I think three attacks. I don't have my books with me, 3e). If the Druid hit with all three attacks, his Flame Blade would deal 3d8 +21 per round. You can scale the NPC Druid to suit the needs of the encounter. The Druid will not kill him in one round, but will make it interesting and fun in a challenging way.
Mandarbgrim
02-21-05, 12:16 AM Flying Warlock with Vitriolic Blast, and E. Chain? Or does he have resistance to acid? Optomize the Warlocks abilities for this method of fighting this type of battle. Give him the Mortalbane feat. A Warlock's Scepter and/or a Chausible of Fell Power, as well. High Dex and Weapon Focus Rays.
9d6 - 10d6 damage for the first attack..give him a scroll of Truestrike, potion of Cat's Grace, and make it an ambush situation.
HomebrewedMonster
02-21-05, 02:28 AM Use combat manuevers against him. Disarm him, grapple him, trip him, and sunder his little metal toothpick (rapier I'm assuming). Mix it up, give him something that his cheesy template does not protect him against. A hill giant that uses a spiked chain can trip most fighters with ease, that and almost all giants have the sunder feat. Giants take those feats for a reason, so they can smash their enemie's weapon and then stomp on them.
Clarity
02-21-05, 02:44 AM Along the line of what Homebrew said, have a shambling mound grab him and yank him under water. Then he can deal with the damage from the beast and the risk of staying under water for too long.

At the very least it might scare the heck out of the player. Always a bonus.
Quijenoth
02-21-05, 09:02 AM First off, I did account for LA, just to clear that up. I think he just minmaxed the hell out of the character (which everyone in my group does, including me, when I'm not DMing).

I would start targeting the PC - having a celestial in the party is going to attract alot of attention - consider targeting him with evil villains and make it feel like evil considers him a threat to their plans.

I have never found a player that couldnt be handled with a little planning. have some huge creature grapple and pin him. Use invisibility to overcome the AC on the initial grab - Assassin vines are only CR 3 but have a +12 grapple which versus a flat footed opponent is almost automatic. then its an automatic 1d8+7 damage per round.
Derren S.
02-21-05, 09:09 AM I can't really see how a 6th level HC could be so though. (Or is the LA +4?)
Barely scratching him? A single good blow should take a good chunk of his HP.

Can you give more information like stats and how high his AC is please?
TinManFan
02-21-05, 09:30 AM OK, not gonna like this but it's fun. Have a NPC party attack your party. There's a bard spell in the BoED's, but you can modify it so that a N or E wiz/sorc can cast it. It's blasts and everyone is w/o dex ac for 1d4 rounds. Have a rogue with shuriken or a sling who took combat reflexes and there ya go. His sneak attacks on everyone will be funny. However if you happen to tarket mr. swashbuckler. oh well.
Kaboth
02-21-05, 10:19 AM A warlock with Vitrilioc Blast will hurt the hell out of him... Vitriloc Blast ignores SR and the blast itself is Acid damage.

Until they errata it you could actually use Supernatural transformation to boot, and that would make the EB Supernatural and that bypasses SR as well.

Dont forget you are attacking his touch AC and not his total AC and at 11th level a Warlock is blasting for 6D6 I think. He will prolly make his reflex save against Vitrilioc blast, but in case he doesnt he would take 3 rounds of additional Acid Damage for 2D6.
Morka
02-21-05, 10:22 AM I second the grapple idea. Is he the kind to remain in front line? Send some huge beasty with Improve Grab and Swallow Hole. And then, let's see if your half-celestial give indigestions...
ehrin
02-21-05, 10:35 AM Ranged touch attacks. Sorcerer with spectral hand, and lots of fatigues, strength drains, con drains. Hate to say it, but lots of magic missiles can't hurt, either.

maximize an Imp (from 3.0). Polymorph a ton, every time it gets low HP.

Try Chimeras, they provide some fun opponents, especially in a pack of three or four. Give your spectral hand mage a set for forward body guards.

Do the doppleganger thing, and let him tell you how to best fight himself.

Dominate, Command, Charm, Will save him ad nauseum.

Find those weird creatures that we don't fight too often and forget about, then maximize one. My guys had a heck of a time against some "ogres" with skins that held their weapons stuck, whenever they hit.

Glyphs of warding.
Chosen of the Dark Sun
02-21-05, 10:52 AM Well, I always have a few methods for taking on arrogant, good or neutral PCs...
If your group is at all mature, sick a succubus demon on him, acting as a "damsel in distress". Half-celestials often have very high charisma scores, and you already said he has a low will save, so he would probably be the obvious target. Its fun to see the look on the PCs face when he's having his strength drained and he can't do anything about it.
If you have Unearthed Arcana, send a half-fiend Paladin of Slaughter to hunt him.
Next, what will his tooth-pick do against a POed momma bulette?
Just some suggestions...
Delfedd
02-21-05, 11:06 AM How about another half-celestial swashbuckler?
or a half fiendish one? they could both take to the air, and fight an ariel (sp?) duel. the fiends minions could fight the other players on the ground...
jedimaster
02-21-05, 11:19 AM Maybe try something like either Medusa from Greek Mythology (look at me and turn to stone) or a creature that uses ranged attacks as a matter of course i.e.Dragon. Or a combination of the two i.e. half basilisk half Red Dragon :schemes:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tek 02-20-05, 04:34 PM	Hey there, I'm running a level 9 game right now, and while I don't have much trouble challenging many of the PC's in combat, there is one that I just can't seem to harm. He is a half-celestial swashbuckler, with high AC, spell resistance, and energy resistance. (And even a bit of DR, if I remeber correctly.) I just don't know what to throw at him. I've tried wizards, fighters, rogues, and some various other monsters and such, but I can't get him to 3/4 HP even. I don't want to take down the players HP to 1/20th every combat, but having something ready to give the player a little shock (as he's been getting kind of cocky about it, IC atleast) would be nice. Any suggestions?
Wizard 02-20-05, 04:45 PM	First, you're counting his LA in there, right? Second, his will save's prolly hurting. Dominate him and let the rest of the party worry about how to take him down. :)
Lord Turambar 02-20-05, 04:47 PM	just throw an iron golem at him. It will be able to hit him and they do hurt. the party will have trouble damaging the golem, maybe, depending on weapons and such but they do hurt.
gorzan 02-20-05, 04:50 PM	make the scenery of the encounter matter alittle. like.. fighting on ice or something, forcing players to roll balance-checks or fall. or getting ambushed while climbing a cliff, making them roll climb checks each round and such.. also, grapple him for all you are worth! monster grapple modifiers can be rather naughty.
Maniacal_Cackle 02-20-05, 04:52 PM	just throw an iron golem at him. It will be able to hit him and they do hurt. the party will have trouble damaging the golem, maybe, depending on weapons and such but they do hurt. Isn't an iron golem a bit extreme? And yeah, if you forgot to include LA, that would be a big problem (I think he should be a level 5 character)... Any direct damage spell, come to think of it, would probably be pretty bad for this guy, as his HP are probably pretty low (unless half-celestials get a big bonus to con?) Also, my personal favorite, stat drain! I believe 8 shadows or so would be appropiate for this level? Although 8 shadows might be a bit much... 8 attacks, each doing 1d6 str... How about a few wraiths instead?
Dark_Tide 02-20-05, 04:54 PM	If he's become so strong, his name probably gets around. Have some one fighter (not the class fighter) hear about this PC's skill and have him challege your PC in a one on one duel. Make your new NPC with as many crazy advantages as the PC has. Give him some type of crazy magic weapon. It would surely make for a memorable encounter.
clarkvalentine 02-20-05, 04:54 PM	How about another half-celestial swashbuckler?
Nomad4life 02-20-05, 04:55 PM	Use antagonists that cause special or ability damage. Alternately, you could “challenge” him with non-combat related encounters.
Razoreface 02-20-05, 05:15 PM	Ditto the LA. With a +4 LA he shouldn't really be that high in the HP department. He's only a sixth level character, with two average hp higher than another sixth level character with d10 hd. DR 5/magic and he's not resistant to fire or sonic. Basically that means no level 9 humanoid enemy should have a problem with his DR, and about half the offensive elemental spells don't apply to his resistance. It also depends on what was used to generate stats (since with purely swashbuckler and being stuck in light armor, he shouldn't really have any higher AC than a standard fighter), and this is also where I say; this is what happens when you use the Complete books. Hello power creep. Which could apply to the book or to your player, since if he's getting cocky about his character, he's probably minmaxed to hell and knows it. So give him clerics. Angry violent clerics, who use Bestow Curse and Sound Burst. Bestow Curse, -6 to Dex. Sound Burst, 1d8 sonic damage no save, save or be dazed.
Nightshade22 02-20-05, 05:21 PM	Just make a custom monster matching his abilities, that uses hit-and-run on the party, always leaving them within an inch of their lives. That ought to cut them down a peg.
Tek 02-20-05, 06:20 PM	Lots of great responses here, thanks everyone. First off, I did account for LA, just to clear that up. I think he just minmaxed the hell out of the character (which everyone in my group does, including me, when I'm not DMing). Dominate: Your exactly right. His will save is pretty darn low for level 9. Only +3. I'll be sure to use dominate, sounds great. Thanks. Iron Golem: Looking it over, I'm actually starting to agree with you here. I think I'm going to have the next boss be a Iron Golem that the party can take down. Thanks! Scenery: Already do so quite frequently, I love using different scenerios then the classic 'you are on a flat piece of ground'.. I've used things such as rope bridges, moving walls, and other things. A slab of ice sounds pretty neat, I'll give that a try. Shadows and Wraiths: I definetly like the style and the ability drain of these guys. Thanks for the suggestion, I'll throw a few in when I get the chance.
Andrew_980 02-20-05, 06:43 PM	three words buddy You allowed it. this is why it is bad to allow anything outside the PHB without carefull consideration
Bringslite 02-20-05, 11:04 PM	When my LVL 12 group invaded a chillin' Frost Giant lair they were making balance checks every time they were hit or ran/charged. The previously mediocer (sp?) wizard was flying and really shinning for once. The Invincible Pally was on his ass half the time. It was GREAT!!!
icuall 02-20-05, 11:55 PM	He is a half-celestial swashbuckler, with high AC, spell resistance, and energy resistance. ...I don't want to take down the players HP to 1/20th every combat, but having something ready to give the player a little shock (as he's been getting kind of cocky about it, IC atleast) would be nice. Any suggestions? As I wrote in the title of my response, lets get back to basics with a simple trap? A large stone block trap that drops out of the ceiling, would do great to a PC without regard to high AC, SR, or energy resistance :D . Or you can isolate him in a room by himself and have the ceiling drop once on him and reset. :D You don't have to kill him as you don't intend to. However, it will make the PC think he is not invincible. Or you may have him go toe to toe in melee with a high level druid casting "Flame Blade". Higher level caster to overcome your PC's SR, and Flame Blade is Touch Attack to bypass the high AC, and if at least 14th level the Druid gets three attacks (I think three attacks. I don't have my books with me, 3e). If the Druid hit with all three attacks, his Flame Blade would deal 3d8 +21 per round. You can scale the NPC Druid to suit the needs of the encounter. The Druid will not kill him in one round, but will make it interesting and fun in a challenging way.
Mandarbgrim 02-21-05, 12:16 AM	Flying Warlock with Vitriolic Blast, and E. Chain? Or does he have resistance to acid? Optomize the Warlocks abilities for this method of fighting this type of battle. Give him the Mortalbane feat. A Warlock's Scepter and/or a Chausible of Fell Power, as well. High Dex and Weapon Focus Rays. 9d6 - 10d6 damage for the first attack..give him a scroll of Truestrike, potion of Cat's Grace, and make it an ambush situation.
HomebrewedMonster 02-21-05, 02:28 AM	Use combat manuevers against him. Disarm him, grapple him, trip him, and sunder his little metal toothpick (rapier I'm assuming). Mix it up, give him something that his cheesy template does not protect him against. A hill giant that uses a spiked chain can trip most fighters with ease, that and almost all giants have the sunder feat. Giants take those feats for a reason, so they can smash their enemie's weapon and then stomp on them.
Clarity 02-21-05, 02:44 AM	Along the line of what Homebrew said, have a shambling mound grab him and yank him under water. Then he can deal with the damage from the beast and the risk of staying under water for too long. At the very least it might scare the heck out of the player. Always a bonus.
Quijenoth 02-21-05, 09:02 AM	First off, I did account for LA, just to clear that up. I think he just minmaxed the hell out of the character (which everyone in my group does, including me, when I'm not DMing). I would start targeting the PC - having a celestial in the party is going to attract alot of attention - consider targeting him with evil villains and make it feel like evil considers him a threat to their plans. I have never found a player that couldnt be handled with a little planning. have some huge creature grapple and pin him. Use invisibility to overcome the AC on the initial grab - Assassin vines are only CR 3 but have a +12 grapple which versus a flat footed opponent is almost automatic. then its an automatic 1d8+7 damage per round.
Derren S. 02-21-05, 09:09 AM	I can't really see how a 6th level HC could be so though. (Or is the LA +4?) Barely scratching him? A single good blow should take a good chunk of his HP. Can you give more information like stats and how high his AC is please?
TinManFan 02-21-05, 09:30 AM	OK, not gonna like this but it's fun. Have a NPC party attack your party. There's a bard spell in the BoED's, but you can modify it so that a N or E wiz/sorc can cast it. It's blasts and everyone is w/o dex ac for 1d4 rounds. Have a rogue with shuriken or a sling who took combat reflexes and there ya go. His sneak attacks on everyone will be funny. However if you happen to tarket mr. swashbuckler. oh well.
Kaboth 02-21-05, 10:19 AM	A warlock with Vitrilioc Blast will hurt the hell out of him... Vitriloc Blast ignores SR and the blast itself is Acid damage. Until they errata it you could actually use Supernatural transformation to boot, and that would make the EB Supernatural and that bypasses SR as well. Dont forget you are attacking his touch AC and not his total AC and at 11th level a Warlock is blasting for 6D6 I think. He will prolly make his reflex save against Vitrilioc blast, but in case he doesnt he would take 3 rounds of additional Acid Damage for 2D6.
Morka 02-21-05, 10:22 AM	I second the grapple idea. Is he the kind to remain in front line? Send some huge beasty with Improve Grab and Swallow Hole. And then, let's see if your half-celestial give indigestions...
ehrin 02-21-05, 10:35 AM	Ranged touch attacks. Sorcerer with spectral hand, and lots of fatigues, strength drains, con drains. Hate to say it, but lots of magic missiles can't hurt, either. maximize an Imp (from 3.0). Polymorph a ton, every time it gets low HP. Try Chimeras, they provide some fun opponents, especially in a pack of three or four. Give your spectral hand mage a set for forward body guards. Do the doppleganger thing, and let him tell you how to best fight himself. Dominate, Command, Charm, Will save him ad nauseum. Find those weird creatures that we don't fight too often and forget about, then maximize one. My guys had a heck of a time against some "ogres" with skins that held their weapons stuck, whenever they hit. Glyphs of warding.
Chosen of the Dark Sun 02-21-05, 10:52 AM	Well, I always have a few methods for taking on arrogant, good or neutral PCs... If your group is at all mature, sick a succubus demon on him, acting as a "damsel in distress". Half-celestials often have very high charisma scores, and you already said he has a low will save, so he would probably be the obvious target. Its fun to see the look on the PCs face when he's having his strength drained and he can't do anything about it. If you have Unearthed Arcana, send a half-fiend Paladin of Slaughter to hunt him. Next, what will his tooth-pick do against a POed momma bulette? Just some suggestions...
Delfedd 02-21-05, 11:06 AM	How about another half-celestial swashbuckler? or a half fiendish one? they could both take to the air, and fight an ariel (sp?) duel. the fiends minions could fight the other players on the ground...
jedimaster 02-21-05, 11:19 AM	Maybe try something like either Medusa from Greek Mythology (look at me and turn to stone) or a creature that uses ranged attacks as a matter of course i.e.Dragon. Or a combination of the two i.e. half basilisk half Red Dragon :schemes: