can´t find the right CR [Archive] - Wizards Community

can´t find the right CR [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
yt3800
11-11-06, 11:00 AM I am runing a game with six players of 3nd level. However when I give them a encounter with a monster of a CR of 2, 3, or 4 level they either wipe it out, or them die. What´s a DM to do?
(Any help will be hot)
GhostOfJacK
11-11-06, 11:11 AM Thy this (http://www.d20srd.org/encounterCalculator.htm) to help guide you for challenges. It helps me do exp quickly for a group the has a wide range of ECLs (by wide I mean 1 or 2). All that you need is a good gasp on changing a monster's CR into ECL. You may find that a CR 4 against a group of lvl 4s gets wiped easily, that's because there is only 1 and most monsters are designed in groups. I took Orcs (CR1/2) and added classes to them and got them to have only 4 put up a challenge for 4 lvl 4s with it. Get a grasp on ECLs and comfortable with customization (orcs come with javelins, but can be even more deadly with a heavy crossbow) and you should be good.
Dunamin
11-11-06, 12:15 PM Also, remember to make other considerations than CR and EL when estimating difficulty. Conditions such as the encounter environment, or the relative number of combatants on each side, can make a huge impact.

Water elementals in their appropriate environment can be devastating to a party, even though it should merely have been a challenge (as in, EL near average character level). And particularly at low-levels, superiority in numbers also can have a drastic influence, even though apparent EL seems appropriate.
Gabriel Dian
11-11-06, 02:25 PM Also take into account which characters are in the group, and make sure you give room for that in your calculations.
A group of all rogues is going to find even an "easy" encounter with Undead challanging (at the least), and a group of all spellcasters against a Outsiders or Constructs is going to be in a problem.
yt3800
11-11-06, 03:43 PM Thanks for the help. I´ll try it.
Zherog
11-11-06, 03:50 PM As a general guide, increasing CR much beyond one or two past the group's average party level is dangerous. Those creatures likely have abilities and attack forms the PCs aren't capable of dealing with yet - such as higher DCs, access to higher level spells, and so on.

When I ran a party of 6 or 7 PCs, I just added extra of the same creature. For example, if I thought a pair of gnoll fighters would be a good fight for a party of 4 PCs at their power level, I'd have my group encounter 4 gnolls. If I thought one rakshasa would make an interesting encounter for 4 PCs, I'd have them encounter 2 of them.

This idea isn't fool proof, but it's a really quick way to try and make a challenging encounter.

Another option is to add low level minions that you might not otherwise handle. For example, if your specific group is set to face off against a 5th level cleric BBEG, make sure you toss in a handful of really low-level (CR 1-2) guards. For example, if you have a 5th level elven cleric as the BBEG they're facing, tossing in two second level elven warriors and two imps should serve to make the combat interesting and challenging without making it overly more deadly.

The key, of course, is to not over-use the technique to the point where the PCs are overwhelmed beyond survival.
Escef
11-11-06, 03:57 PM Find out what the EL (encounter level) of the PC group would be and subtract 4, thats about the right encounter level for them. To get that EL use multiple creatures of lower CR, avoid higher CR creatures with excessive abilities.
Senevri
11-11-06, 05:33 PM Numbers are better than strong individuals.

My players took out a CR 17 well-prepared dragon in it's lair when they were around CL 13. The same bunch was decently challenged by seven CR8s at level 16...

The higher CR single critters you have, the more likely you'll kill someone or die due to luck.
yt3800
11-13-06, 07:50 AM Thank you all for the help. I´m good now.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
yt3800 11-11-06, 11:00 AM	I am runing a game with six players of 3nd level. However when I give them a encounter with a monster of a CR of 2, 3, or 4 level they either wipe it out, or them die. What´s a DM to do? (Any help will be hot)
GhostOfJacK 11-11-06, 11:11 AM	Thy this (http://www.d20srd.org/encounterCalculator.htm) to help guide you for challenges. It helps me do exp quickly for a group the has a wide range of ECLs (by wide I mean 1 or 2). All that you need is a good gasp on changing a monster's CR into ECL. You may find that a CR 4 against a group of lvl 4s gets wiped easily, that's because there is only 1 and most monsters are designed in groups. I took Orcs (CR1/2) and added classes to them and got them to have only 4 put up a challenge for 4 lvl 4s with it. Get a grasp on ECLs and comfortable with customization (orcs come with javelins, but can be even more deadly with a heavy crossbow) and you should be good.
Dunamin 11-11-06, 12:15 PM	Also, remember to make other considerations than CR and EL when estimating difficulty. Conditions such as the encounter environment, or the relative number of combatants on each side, can make a huge impact. Water elementals in their appropriate environment can be devastating to a party, even though it should merely have been a challenge (as in, EL near average character level). And particularly at low-levels, superiority in numbers also can have a drastic influence, even though apparent EL seems appropriate.
Gabriel Dian 11-11-06, 02:25 PM	Also take into account which characters are in the group, and make sure you give room for that in your calculations. A group of all rogues is going to find even an "easy" encounter with Undead challanging (at the least), and a group of all spellcasters against a Outsiders or Constructs is going to be in a problem.
yt3800 11-11-06, 03:43 PM	Thanks for the help. I´ll try it.
Zherog 11-11-06, 03:50 PM	As a general guide, increasing CR much beyond one or two past the group's average party level is dangerous. Those creatures likely have abilities and attack forms the PCs aren't capable of dealing with yet - such as higher DCs, access to higher level spells, and so on. When I ran a party of 6 or 7 PCs, I just added extra of the same creature. For example, if I thought a pair of gnoll fighters would be a good fight for a party of 4 PCs at their power level, I'd have my group encounter 4 gnolls. If I thought one rakshasa would make an interesting encounter for 4 PCs, I'd have them encounter 2 of them. This idea isn't fool proof, but it's a really quick way to try and make a challenging encounter. Another option is to add low level minions that you might not otherwise handle. For example, if your specific group is set to face off against a 5th level cleric BBEG, make sure you toss in a handful of really low-level (CR 1-2) guards. For example, if you have a 5th level elven cleric as the BBEG they're facing, tossing in two second level elven warriors and two imps should serve to make the combat interesting and challenging without making it overly more deadly. The key, of course, is to not over-use the technique to the point where the PCs are overwhelmed beyond survival.
Escef 11-11-06, 03:57 PM	Find out what the EL (encounter level) of the PC group would be and subtract 4, thats about the right encounter level for them. To get that EL use multiple creatures of lower CR, avoid higher CR creatures with excessive abilities.
Senevri 11-11-06, 05:33 PM	Numbers are better than strong individuals. My players took out a CR 17 well-prepared dragon in it's lair when they were around CL 13. The same bunch was decently challenged by seven CR8s at level 16... The higher CR single critters you have, the more likely you'll kill someone or die due to luck.
yt3800 11-13-06, 07:50 AM	Thank you all for the help. I´m good now.