Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kevtar 04-29-05, 09:41 AM	Heya- So, I have this nagging desire to keep the original line-up of the PCs involved in my game complete. I hate killing the PCs off. That's not to say that I don't put them through their paces, but I've adopted the attitude that I'm here to facilitate the story, and if the majority of the protagonists die off... well then that's not much of a story. However, players don't always make the best decisions and of course, sometimes PCs just die! I've been kicking around the idea of opponents seeking to capture PCs as opposed to outright killing them. (This only works in certain situations and wouldn't be applied in every battle, etc...) I thought I would accomplish this by having the opponents inflict non-lethal damage, but to tell you the truth, I'm not sure how to get it to work out. For instance, could an NPC witha sword do lethal damage until a PC is down to 3 points and then punch the PC for 3 points of no-lethal damage, which in turn, keeps the PC alive but unconscious? What are some ways that you would have NPCs/monsters neutralize the PCs without outright killing them? Thanks in advance.
MasterRookie 04-29-05, 09:46 AM	Give them healing potions. Have them beat the PC's within an inch of their lives then stablize them with a potion, deliver them to a secure location and keep them there. I recomend you have a case of mistaken Identity so one or more of the PCs is being hunted by one or more bounty hunters who want them alive. If theres a Paladin the best is to have a black guard dressed in similar clothing with some other similar facial and body features kill someone important.
Lord Ian Stark 04-29-05, 10:00 AM	If I'm not mistaken your lethal and non-lethal damage are the same unless you actully do non-lethal damage to someone. So yes, if you are fighting a guy and he is down to 3 HP, then you only need to do 3 non-lethal points of damage to knock him unconcious. Page 146 in the PH 3.5.
Morka 04-29-05, 10:04 AM	Dealing lethal damage until 3 HP, then dealing a few non-lethal damage is Metagaming. Have your NPC alternate one standard attacks and non-lethal damage ones. Y You could also use poison that cause STR or DEX damage. Damage to mental stats is cool too but harsh for the spellcasters. Drow poison simply make the target asleep. Use a Monk (or other brawling types) dealing only non-lethal damage. Use an assassin, they can choose to paralyse instead of kill their target. Use Charm or Dominate Person on the warriors.
Lord Ian Stark 04-29-05, 10:10 AM	Dealing lethal damage until 3 HP, then dealing a few non-lethal damage is Metagaming. Look at the Level One spell Deathwatch my friend. Not Metagaming. It's in the RAW. ;)
DeadEye19 04-29-05, 10:30 AM	If the PC's lose the fight and unconcious, their enemies stabilizing them can be a good idea, but only if the enemies has a reason for it. If someone died, there is little left to do- unless the bad guys can raise him, at the cost of something vile to be done by the surviving characters. Still, death spells are a big problam.
Rawel 04-29-05, 10:31 AM	Hmm well i agree that beating them to exactly 3 hps might be fishy but how is pulling your punches when you see the oponnent is severly wounded metagaming? I mean if I was an evil guy sent to capture someone i'd gauge his abilities and then hack him up hard quick and only start slowing down once i see he's in for it. I'd definitely not want to risk my hide just so the filthy opponent doesn't snuff it. I would also consider say ruling that for a -2 penalty to attacks you can try making sure you don't deal a crit.hit. ie. concentrate on not hitting vital areas of a character. Just my 2 brass
Lord Ian Stark 04-29-05, 10:59 AM	Hmm well i agree that beating them to exactly 3 hps might be fishy If you read the original post he said, "for instance" about getting a guy down to 3 HP. He's not trying to get them to any specific number, just down enough to get them ready for a knock out hit instead of a killing blow. There is nothing wrong with this in either the idea or by doing it by the RAW. I don't see what the issure is here?
Loopy 04-29-05, 11:05 AM	I would not intentionally do anything to keep your players' characters alive unless it is a mistake that YOU made behind the screen and you have to fix it. I'd go ahead and just try to always think "If I were this monster with this alignment, what would I do?" That's called accountability and fairness. They'll never do you wrong.
Lord Ian Stark 04-29-05, 11:09 AM	I would not intentionally do anything to keep your players' characters alive unless it is a mistake that YOU made behind the screen and you have to fix it. I'd go ahead and just try to always think "If I were this monster with this alignment, what would I do?" That's called accountability and fairness. They'll never do you wrong. So no enemies would ever in the D&D game want to take the PC's hostage in your view? :rolleyes:
deathmanalmighty 04-29-05, 11:14 AM	Check out p.146 PHB ver 3.5. In there it says you can use lethal weapons to do nonlethal damage and vice-versa. All you gotta do is take a -4 penalty to attack and your damage is nonlethal. This way you can deal more damage than a simple punch. Feel free to use you imagination of why the weapon did nonlethal damage. (Ex: Flat of Sword) :D
Morka 04-29-05, 11:15 AM	If you read the original post he said, "for instance" about getting a guy down to 3 HP. He's not trying to get them to any specific number, just down enough to get them ready for a knock out hit instead of a killing blow. There is nothing wrong with this in either the idea or by doing it by the RAW. I don't see what the issure is here? Ok perhaps did my words outpassed my thought. It depends on how the group is working. If the DM ask: how many HP have you? and the player answer the right amount, it's metagaming. If the DM ask: how is your character? and the player answer: top-shape! or: I'm bleeding from everywhere, then it's just right. Also, I didn't tought about the spell Deathwatch. Very useful, but not every bounty hunter would use this.
Mirikon 04-29-05, 11:45 AM	Capturing players can be a lot of fun. Especially when they're introduced to Ye Olde Torture Chamber. What's even better is when the evil wizard BBEG captures one of the party, and then uses an artifact to switch the player's soul into another body, replacing it with the soul of one of his minions. Then the 'player' manages to 'escape' and find his way back to the party. :plotting: :evillaugh
Lord Ian Stark 04-29-05, 12:20 PM	Also, I didn't tought about the spell Deathwatch. Very useful, but not every bounty hunter would use this. If that guy is any good at being a bounty hunter he would have the "means" to use that first level spell. Especially since most bounties on people are for them to be taken alive not dead. I understand about the metagaming way of the DM asking the characters and I really don't think that's what the OP was talking about.
Lord Ian Stark 04-29-05, 12:32 PM	Check out p.146 PHB ver 3.5. In there it says you can use lethal weapons to do nonlethal damage and vice-versa. All you gotta do is take a -4 penalty to attack and your damage is nonlethal. This way you can deal more damage than a simple punch. Feel free to use you imagination of why the weapon did nonlethal damage. (Ex: Flat of Sword) :D I'm glad someone decided to answer this without resorting to useless bickering like the rest of us. :D
Mirikon 04-29-05, 02:59 PM	Indeed, deathwatch is quite the useful spell for any bounty hunter. And, as it would happen, there are items which can confer a continuous deathwatch effect.
Miraumar 04-29-05, 03:13 PM	So no enemies would ever in the D&D game want to take the PC's hostage in your view? That is not even close to what he said. He said that rather than keep PCs alive for no reason, have the critters being fought react according to their own beliefs/motivations. Example from my last session... PCs were ambushed by bandits. These bandits are all evil and have bothered the region for a few years. They generally fight to kill anyone they encounter. When they fought the PCs however they did non-lethal damage. Not because they were fighting PCs, but because it was in their interest to deal non-lethal damage. As it turns out, the PCs are inadvertantly working for the same people the bandits work for. That person sent the bandits to steal some documents the PCs had, that would help them piece together the fact that they were helping him. He wants them to keep bungling along blindly, because that suits his purpose. Perhaps you can see the distinction. Loopy suggested to play monsters according to who they are. Capture the PCs if they have cause and reason, kill them if they cause and reason. Don't make the decision because you just want to "keep your PCs alive" as that can lead to problems while being straight-up lets everyone know the rules of engagement and play accordingly.
Derren S. 04-29-05, 03:16 PM	Non-lethal damage isn't just for one round. You could hit the PC 1-2 times with nonlethal damage at the begin of the battle and fight the rest normally and he would still drop unconcussionous when his HP become lower than the nonlethal damage. When the PC is healed in the battle, you have to strike again with nonlethal damage, so this is not the most effective tactic. But unless the enemy has a good reason to capture the PCs why should they? Because of plot immunity?
Kevtar 04-30-05, 05:50 PM	There are some great ideas here, and yes, the 3 HP thing was simply an example. Also, just to clarify, I would not try to capture the PCs in every encounter. This thread was written with the goal of providing some means/scenarios where I could justifiably use capture as an option. Thanks all, if you think of any more - lemme know.
MasterRookie 04-30-05, 06:43 PM	Dealing lethal damage until 3 HP, then dealing a few non-lethal damage is Metagaming. Have your NPC alternate one standard attacks and non-lethal damage ones. Y You could also use poison that cause STR or DEX damage. Damage to mental stats is cool too but harsh for the spellcasters. Drow poison simply make the target asleep. Use a Monk (or other brawling types) dealing only non-lethal damage. Use an assassin, they can choose to paralyse instead of kill their target. Use Charm or Dominate Person on the warriors. Not such a rigid number. You might slash someone's arm then nock them out.
krichaiushii 04-30-05, 09:29 PM	Be careful how you run the capture. Many players would rather see their PCs die than be captured. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but don't be surprised if they throw up their hands in despair upon their capture. That said, hopefully they see a capture for what it is - resourceful problem solving for the players, regarding escaping without the use of their cool stuff.
tarkin 04-30-05, 09:57 PM	Balefull Polymorph is the best spell for that. Small, easy to carry, feed them insects, then revert the spell. Flesh to Stone and similar spells also work, but they usually are awkward to carry.
Mirikon 05-01-05, 12:33 AM	Balefull Polymorph is the best spell for that. Small, easy to carry, feed them insects, then revert the spell. Flesh to Stone and similar spells also work, but they usually are awkward to carry. Tenser's Floating Disk or Reduce Person takes care of that nicely.
twad 05-01-05, 01:10 AM	to help anyone who like to deal non-leathal damage: mercifull weapons: +1 equivalent (i think), weapon damage+1d6; all damage become subdual. i like mercifull weapons.
MortalPlague 05-01-05, 03:29 AM	Nets and pits are fun to use, too. A good idea, potentially, but don't overdo it. Remember; even in the stories, characters die, and it can make the story all the better for it.
Kevtar 05-02-05, 12:00 PM	yeah, character deaths do make a story-line better, take Sturm's death in Dragonlance for example. I would've liked to have seen Han or Chewie die in RotJ personally, but ah well... The biggest problem I'm faced with right now is inexperienced players who tend to be a little too narrow in their focus. For instance, on Saturday night I was running "the standing stone" and they were in the forest. I rolled a "Fey skirmish" for a random encounter. They treant Gnarlroot and the other NPCs were havin' the PCs for lunch. The players were getting depressed when I finally said, "why don't you take a full-withdrawal and keep running?!" We stopped playing a few minutes afterwards because the players' energy level dropped after that encounter. They just never run away. (and it was 1:00 am)
Derren S. 05-02-05, 01:50 PM	I would've liked to have seen Han or Chewie die in RotJ personally, but ah well... Read the new books. You won't be disappointed.
aleph_woodenglenn 05-02-05, 05:20 PM	the gaming group in which I play has two solutions to this. (We do love to keep our characters alive) first, is a persistent houserule that prevents almost all deaths except in the case of a TPK. We allow any hit to do damage only to 0hp. at zero, regular unconsious damage takes place. This means that the stabilization of fallen allies becomes paramount, making battle difficult, but death difficult too. Of course a particularly vicious or hungry foe may continue to do damge to the unconscious body until he/she is dead dead. second, the proclivity of enemies to want more information/ get a handsome ransom. stabilizing an adventurer that looks like he is worth a few thousand GP to somebody makes sense even to goblins. reasons to get captured: ransom information the PC is (or is mistaken for) a VIP of some kind a means to convince the rest of the party to do something (like ransom...) one caveat is if the death is plot-important, in which case, enemies suddenly feel more need to coup-de-gras the unconscious and less need to take him/her prisoner.