Carceri and Betrayal... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Carceri and Betrayal... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
nordyboy
10-31-06, 12:23 AM So, I'm currently DMing a 17th level campaign in which the characters have done a lot of planar travel. Right now, they are in the first level of Carceri, hunting for an ancient relic inside a massive dungeon-like complex.

While answering the wizard's questions about the plane, (after a knowledge check, of course), I mentioned the line in the description that states that "the plane's very nature breeds betrayal". This seemed to especially bother the wizard, who immeadiately began telling everyone that they needed to stick together, and not turn on each other no matter what. They all started to joke about it, but I took some of it to heart. They've just finished up their first session in the plane, and I'm starting to wonder about this.

Would it be appropriate as a DM to try and sow some dissent while they're down there? I mean, it's always frustrating to have a group that doesn't get along, but in this case it would make sense in game. Is it worth it to make the game more realistic, or to ignore that facet of the plane in favor of smoother gameplay? I should mention that we are all good friends, and that could work both ways. Any problems that arise could be handled more easily though discussion, but any that aren't resolved could be problamatic.

I don't want this to be a matter of "Roll a will save. Ok, Migtug, you don't like Tobias anymore." While that would be much less difficult to deal with, it's also contrived and hokey-feeling. So, I would try to do things to make the players paranoid about each other's characters, such as passing notes often, asking everyone to roll me a d20 and give me the result, but not tell anyone else, after which they'd all recieve a note, but only some would have relevant information on them. Leaving the room with another player for a few minutes to talk could work, too.

Does anyone have any advice on this? I want to make the game as enjoyable and memorable as I can for my players, I'm just not sure how. Thanks for reading through all of this, and for any advice you might have.
DarthMarasmus
10-31-06, 12:45 AM I think your idea about passing the notes, etc. would work quite well. Whether or not it would lead to player to player conflict instead of character to character conflict depends entirely upon the maturity of your players. As long as they realize that it's just part of the game, then it should be fine. If you think that they might take it personally, then I'd advise against it.
trapspringer
10-31-06, 12:49 AM Hell, go for it.

If interpersonal problems are going to arise because of this, they are going to arise eventually anyway. Run your game to the best of your ability and don't let fear hold you back.

But don't force it on them. If they stick together, they stick together. Good for them.
MareltEkiran
10-31-06, 01:23 AM Well, the players are outsiders and not petitioners. People from other planes who visit a certain plane do not take that plane's alignment or traits.

That being said... the plane's inhabitants are a very different issue. They will not only betray you themselves, but seek to make you one of them. They will make offers of betrayal, create situations that make players distrust one another, etc. However, if you're just dungeon-crawling, then you probably don't have much interaction with the native population, other than for the purpose of skull-bashing.

That leaves a subtler option that will require some skill on the DM's part.

Simply put, the plane hates them. Reality itself despises their presence and their state of mind.

This will likely manifest in terms of luck. The forces of fortune can be modified into making people distrust each other, simply by altering fate to a point that events no longer seem random. Equipment may suddenly start failing in mysterious ways. Magic may start showing strange side effects. In a plane that is inherently evil, things that stay there too long can become corrupted by the mere presence.

I'll give a few examples...

All of the food suddenly becomes unusable, because all your bags have been infested with something nasty. If the cleric tries to summon more food, all he gets is something slimy, unfit for consumption. After a few days, the party will start to feel the trouble (nothing too severe... 17th level characters can handle a bit of famine). However, one character seems to remain completely healthy and refreshed for no apparent reason.

While asleep, one character suddenly wakes up because of a sharp pain... He makes a spot check, and in the darkness, he sees something make a movement, as if hiding in the shadows. The character has a nasty cut around his neck region (1d6 slashing damage)... which can be healed without trouble. When the party calms down and searches around, it is noted that a few drops of blood make a trail towards another character... and it just so happens that one of his minor back-up weapons is missing.

After defeating a monster that looks like it was transporting something important, the party searches it, but only finds a few silver pieces. Shortly afterwards, one character finds a sparkling, very rare and valuable magical gemstone in his pocket... make it one of those items that require will saves or become obsessively attached to them.

When a character has a small innocent-looking wound on his arm healed, he notices a flare of blackness on the cleric's hand. This image is mental... the cleric himself doesn't notice anything (and will therefore deny any strangeness). After a day, the character will start feeling a strange malevolence coming from the place where the wound was. In combat, he will a bestial urge to kill, maim or torture whatever he is fighting, with that specific arm (give him a small combat-related bonus when it manifests, but emphasize the bestial urges... they will disappear upon leaving Carceri).

In combat, have monsters blatantly ignore one character. No matter how much risk she puts herself in, the monsters will run past her (even provoking unnecesarry AoO) to get to other characters.

Have one character dream or have a strange voice speak in her mind, outlining a danger in the near future. Give away things such as the location of an ambush, the mechanism to disable a trapdoor or the knowledge of which pathway to take to avoid the Demon of Terribly, Torterous Termination... After this information saves the party's neck a few times, have the character get another premonition when the party rest. In this vision, the character sees another character poison the water supply. Subsequent testing indeed indicates that the water is poisoned.

A combination of things like these should definitely get the party looking over their shoulders, after a while. For more inspiration, I recommend reading the Heroes of Horror supplement... It has some excellent chapters on creating negative feelings in a party (in a good way).
nordyboy
10-31-06, 01:43 AM Wow. Nice sugestions. I've started messing with their heads a little bit, trying to make them scared. (Tough with high level characters!) As they entered the dungeon, I described two people running down the hall toward them and dragging a third, screaming for their lives. As they neared, three big shadowy forms (dread wraiths) swept out of the walls and through these two people, killing them 15 feet from the PCs. The wraiths then disappeared into the walls. They fought them again later, the wraiths once again dissapearing at their moment of victory. Problem is though, the players think the wraiths are scared of them, not toying with them. Anyways, I took this opportunity to begin messing with the wizard. I sent him an email later describing the fight, and what happened afterwards.

"As the the bolt of blue-white electricity from your staff streakes though the last of the wraiths in the corridor, the creatures explode outwards in a silent eruption of vapor, tiny traces of lightening still snaking through the cloud of tortured soul. The hallway fills with the smell of an open grave during an electrical storm, and what hair there is on your body prickles up. The thrill of conquest recedes, however, when the hoarse whispers once again rise up from the stone around you.

saaaaiihhhhhareshhhhessshhhffaaaaraaaiwe aaaaah...

Their approach marked only by their dread whispers, three forms pour out of unseen cracks in the dark stone walls around you. The gray vapors coallesce into something resembling humanoid, but as large as ogres. Seeming to catch some imperceptible breeze, the forms surround you and your companions, encircling you in a whispy, shadowy vortex. Tiny red points glare out at you from the cloud, flashing toward you with an ancent, vengeful evil. You hear a shudder, but aren't sure if it came from you, or your friends, or your very soul. Just as suddenly and silently as they appeared from the walls, they return, leaving the three of you alone, or as alone as you shall ever be in the depths of the Reclematory. You, Tobias, and Migtug begin to look around once more, each silently acknowledging your new, shapeless companion; Dread. Uneasily, you all look toward the wooden double doors in front of you.

As you all regain your bearings, you feel a new presence, and the sensation of being observed, scrutinized. A voice, barely more than a whisper, speaks to you. You look around you; Tobias is inspecting the door, Migtug is leaned against a wall, catching his breath and keeping his eyes open for the next threat. No one else has reacted, no one else has been affected. It speaks again.

...Crewer... " (Crewer=the name of the wizard.)

Hopefully, that will have him on edge. Also, I think I'm going to use tour suggestion of a creature not attacking one person. They might go so far as to know his name, and to address him in combat.

The players seem to think that all the wraiths are there to punish people who steal from this place, so I might inexpicably plant a few items on another player. The wraiths aren't really a punishment, they just happen to be there, but I'll let the players keep on believing what they will. It's kind of fun to see them feel guilty about being attacked.
Goon_for_Hire
10-31-06, 07:32 AM My PCs just escaped a three-session slog through Carceri themselves. It can be a lot of fun trying to breed the right level of paranoia.

Marelt Elkan's suggestions are awesome! Make good use of them.

I would add that as a DM you might want to pass a lot of notes, some of them with nothing, others describing illusions, moving shadows, tricks on the minds, mysterious whispers in the PCs ears.

Consider having some kind of petitioner or bogey move some precious (but not often used) equipment from one PC's extradimensional storage space to the rogues, and then make that item vital in an encounter.

As an expansion on the "all attackers ignore one PC scenario," make it an elf if the party has one (especially if the rest don't trance) and make the attackers something like low level Yugoloth. Just as the non-elf PCs are about to wake up (or as another party elf is about to come out of trance,) have a higher-level Yugoloth appear in camp and give the elf a treasure without explanation; make sure the other PCs only see the end of that encounter.

Petitioners can keep certain skills or abilities if it serves the local deities' purposes. Have the PCs run into a spellcasting petitioner (an old hag, maybe) who gives them a cryptic and suggestive prophecy, like "before long, one of you shall leave to join his master." She might even use divination tools bearing a Nystul's magic aura of strong detection, or cast a private-research illusion that appears to be a divination to any spellcraft check under 30 and has a false divination aura.

Or as an alternative, maybe having a group of petitioners cower from one PC (especially if oen is going with the strong/silent or mysterious past schtick) and either call him "m'lord" or accuse him of murdering them. Foreshadow it with a question about how much they really know about the character being whispered in one PC's ear.

Consider havign the PCs discover a ruined hall of mirrors made of jagged, sand-polished metal and black glass, labelled something like "hall of visions." Have helpful-sounding petitioners, alongside some minor evil outsiders, and even a stranded adventurer mill about outside the hall waiting for their turn to gaze on the mirrors and recieve "a prophecy." The mirrors show the PCs at some near future point, and each one sees a few different things on their turn in the hall, including an encounter they run into later, just to give them confidence (make sure to keep each prophecy private from the other players, so they can say "I saw this!") Let at least one PC see another murdering the party in their sleep, then start passing the "murderer" a lot of notes.

Given their level, this would be a good place to include a crystal hypnosis ball in a treasure, without it looking suspiciously overpriced.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
nordyboy 10-31-06, 12:23 AM	So, I'm currently DMing a 17th level campaign in which the characters have done a lot of planar travel. Right now, they are in the first level of Carceri, hunting for an ancient relic inside a massive dungeon-like complex. While answering the wizard's questions about the plane, (after a knowledge check, of course), I mentioned the line in the description that states that "the plane's very nature breeds betrayal". This seemed to especially bother the wizard, who immeadiately began telling everyone that they needed to stick together, and not turn on each other no matter what. They all started to joke about it, but I took some of it to heart. They've just finished up their first session in the plane, and I'm starting to wonder about this. Would it be appropriate as a DM to try and sow some dissent while they're down there? I mean, it's always frustrating to have a group that doesn't get along, but in this case it would make sense in game. Is it worth it to make the game more realistic, or to ignore that facet of the plane in favor of smoother gameplay? I should mention that we are all good friends, and that could work both ways. Any problems that arise could be handled more easily though discussion, but any that aren't resolved could be problamatic. I don't want this to be a matter of "Roll a will save. Ok, Migtug, you don't like Tobias anymore." While that would be much less difficult to deal with, it's also contrived and hokey-feeling. So, I would try to do things to make the players paranoid about each other's characters, such as passing notes often, asking everyone to roll me a d20 and give me the result, but not tell anyone else, after which they'd all recieve a note, but only some would have relevant information on them. Leaving the room with another player for a few minutes to talk could work, too. Does anyone have any advice on this? I want to make the game as enjoyable and memorable as I can for my players, I'm just not sure how. Thanks for reading through all of this, and for any advice you might have.
DarthMarasmus 10-31-06, 12:45 AM	I think your idea about passing the notes, etc. would work quite well. Whether or not it would lead to player to player conflict instead of character to character conflict depends entirely upon the maturity of your players. As long as they realize that it's just part of the game, then it should be fine. If you think that they might take it personally, then I'd advise against it.
trapspringer 10-31-06, 12:49 AM	Hell, go for it. If interpersonal problems are going to arise because of this, they are going to arise eventually anyway. Run your game to the best of your ability and don't let fear hold you back. But don't force it on them. If they stick together, they stick together. Good for them.
MareltEkiran 10-31-06, 01:23 AM	Well, the players are outsiders and not petitioners. People from other planes who visit a certain plane do not take that plane's alignment or traits. That being said... the plane's inhabitants are a very different issue. They will not only betray you themselves, but seek to make you one of them. They will make offers of betrayal, create situations that make players distrust one another, etc. However, if you're just dungeon-crawling, then you probably don't have much interaction with the native population, other than for the purpose of skull-bashing. That leaves a subtler option that will require some skill on the DM's part. Simply put, the plane hates them. Reality itself despises their presence and their state of mind. This will likely manifest in terms of luck. The forces of fortune can be modified into making people distrust each other, simply by altering fate to a point that events no longer seem random. Equipment may suddenly start failing in mysterious ways. Magic may start showing strange side effects. In a plane that is inherently evil, things that stay there too long can become corrupted by the mere presence. I'll give a few examples... All of the food suddenly becomes unusable, because all your bags have been infested with something nasty. If the cleric tries to summon more food, all he gets is something slimy, unfit for consumption. After a few days, the party will start to feel the trouble (nothing too severe... 17th level characters can handle a bit of famine). However, one character seems to remain completely healthy and refreshed for no apparent reason. While asleep, one character suddenly wakes up because of a sharp pain... He makes a spot check, and in the darkness, he sees something make a movement, as if hiding in the shadows. The character has a nasty cut around his neck region (1d6 slashing damage)... which can be healed without trouble. When the party calms down and searches around, it is noted that a few drops of blood make a trail towards another character... and it just so happens that one of his minor back-up weapons is missing. After defeating a monster that looks like it was transporting something important, the party searches it, but only finds a few silver pieces. Shortly afterwards, one character finds a sparkling, very rare and valuable magical gemstone in his pocket... make it one of those items that require will saves or become obsessively attached to them. When a character has a small innocent-looking wound on his arm healed, he notices a flare of blackness on the cleric's hand. This image is mental... the cleric himself doesn't notice anything (and will therefore deny any strangeness). After a day, the character will start feeling a strange malevolence coming from the place where the wound was. In combat, he will a bestial urge to kill, maim or torture whatever he is fighting, with that specific arm (give him a small combat-related bonus when it manifests, but emphasize the bestial urges... they will disappear upon leaving Carceri). In combat, have monsters blatantly ignore one character. No matter how much risk she puts herself in, the monsters will run past her (even provoking unnecesarry AoO) to get to other characters. Have one character dream or have a strange voice speak in her mind, outlining a danger in the near future. Give away things such as the location of an ambush, the mechanism to disable a trapdoor or the knowledge of which pathway to take to avoid the Demon of Terribly, Torterous Termination... After this information saves the party's neck a few times, have the character get another premonition when the party rest. In this vision, the character sees another character poison the water supply. Subsequent testing indeed indicates that the water is poisoned. A combination of things like these should definitely get the party looking over their shoulders, after a while. For more inspiration, I recommend reading the Heroes of Horror supplement... It has some excellent chapters on creating negative feelings in a party (in a good way).
nordyboy 10-31-06, 01:43 AM	Wow. Nice sugestions. I've started messing with their heads a little bit, trying to make them scared. (Tough with high level characters!) As they entered the dungeon, I described two people running down the hall toward them and dragging a third, screaming for their lives. As they neared, three big shadowy forms (dread wraiths) swept out of the walls and through these two people, killing them 15 feet from the PCs. The wraiths then disappeared into the walls. They fought them again later, the wraiths once again dissapearing at their moment of victory. Problem is though, the players think the wraiths are scared of them, not toying with them. Anyways, I took this opportunity to begin messing with the wizard. I sent him an email later describing the fight, and what happened afterwards. "As the the bolt of blue-white electricity from your staff streakes though the last of the wraiths in the corridor, the creatures explode outwards in a silent eruption of vapor, tiny traces of lightening still snaking through the cloud of tortured soul. The hallway fills with the smell of an open grave during an electrical storm, and what hair there is on your body prickles up. The thrill of conquest recedes, however, when the hoarse whispers once again rise up from the stone around you. saaaaiihhhhhareshhhhessshhhffaaaaraaaiwe aaaaah... Their approach marked only by their dread whispers, three forms pour out of unseen cracks in the dark stone walls around you. The gray vapors coallesce into something resembling humanoid, but as large as ogres. Seeming to catch some imperceptible breeze, the forms surround you and your companions, encircling you in a whispy, shadowy vortex. Tiny red points glare out at you from the cloud, flashing toward you with an ancent, vengeful evil. You hear a shudder, but aren't sure if it came from you, or your friends, or your very soul. Just as suddenly and silently as they appeared from the walls, they return, leaving the three of you alone, or as alone as you shall ever be in the depths of the Reclematory. You, Tobias, and Migtug begin to look around once more, each silently acknowledging your new, shapeless companion; Dread. Uneasily, you all look toward the wooden double doors in front of you. As you all regain your bearings, you feel a new presence, and the sensation of being observed, scrutinized. A voice, barely more than a whisper, speaks to you. You look around you; Tobias is inspecting the door, Migtug is leaned against a wall, catching his breath and keeping his eyes open for the next threat. No one else has reacted, no one else has been affected. It speaks again. ...Crewer... " (Crewer=the name of the wizard.) Hopefully, that will have him on edge. Also, I think I'm going to use tour suggestion of a creature not attacking one person. They might go so far as to know his name, and to address him in combat. The players seem to think that all the wraiths are there to punish people who steal from this place, so I might inexpicably plant a few items on another player. The wraiths aren't really a punishment, they just happen to be there, but I'll let the players keep on believing what they will. It's kind of fun to see them feel guilty about being attacked.
Goon_for_Hire 10-31-06, 07:32 AM	My PCs just escaped a three-session slog through Carceri themselves. It can be a lot of fun trying to breed the right level of paranoia. Marelt Elkan's suggestions are awesome! Make good use of them. I would add that as a DM you might want to pass a lot of notes, some of them with nothing, others describing illusions, moving shadows, tricks on the minds, mysterious whispers in the PCs ears. Consider having some kind of petitioner or bogey move some precious (but not often used) equipment from one PC's extradimensional storage space to the rogues, and then make that item vital in an encounter. As an expansion on the "all attackers ignore one PC scenario," make it an elf if the party has one (especially if the rest don't trance) and make the attackers something like low level Yugoloth. Just as the non-elf PCs are about to wake up (or as another party elf is about to come out of trance,) have a higher-level Yugoloth appear in camp and give the elf a treasure without explanation; make sure the other PCs only see the end of that encounter. Petitioners can keep certain skills or abilities if it serves the local deities' purposes. Have the PCs run into a spellcasting petitioner (an old hag, maybe) who gives them a cryptic and suggestive prophecy, like "before long, one of you shall leave to join his master." She might even use divination tools bearing a Nystul's magic aura of strong detection, or cast a private-research illusion that appears to be a divination to any spellcraft check under 30 and has a false divination aura. Or as an alternative, maybe having a group of petitioners cower from one PC (especially if oen is going with the strong/silent or mysterious past schtick) and either call him "m'lord" or accuse him of murdering them. Foreshadow it with a question about how much they really know about the character being whispered in one PC's ear. Consider havign the PCs discover a ruined hall of mirrors made of jagged, sand-polished metal and black glass, labelled something like "hall of visions." Have helpful-sounding petitioners, alongside some minor evil outsiders, and even a stranded adventurer mill about outside the hall waiting for their turn to gaze on the mirrors and recieve "a prophecy." The mirrors show the PCs at some near future point, and each one sees a few different things on their turn in the hall, including an encounter they run into later, just to give them confidence (make sure to keep each prophecy private from the other players, so they can say "I saw this!") Let at least one PC see another murdering the party in their sleep, then start passing the "murderer" a lot of notes. Given their level, this would be a good place to include a crystal hypnosis ball in a treasure, without it looking suspiciously overpriced.