Carrying capacities [Archive] - Wizards Community

Carrying capacities [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dungeon Penguin
01-16-05, 09:31 AM I'm just about to start a new campaign and was looking at solving some of the issues I had with my previous campaign through some simple house rules.

One of my best ideas (not that it had any real competition) was to stop players hoarding various items, particularly ammunition. It really makes no sense that a single character should, with no magical aids, be able to carry thousands of bolts without penalty. If there’s something major in the rules I’ve overlooked here, please do correct me, but having looked over the rules for carrying capacities, they relate solely to weight. Ammunition is, of course, very light (my PHB tells me 1lb for 10), so a character with decent STR is going to be able to have a whole lot of quivers of bolts.

My issue with this is that carrying all these quivers around is going to be difficult. Along with all the other tools the character has on their person, it doesn’t seem likely to me that they’d have that much room for 10 quivers of bolts or arrows.

So my idea was to limit the amount of physical containers any one character can hope to carry, regardless of the weight therein. As such, every weapon should have some method of securing itself to the person, whether it’s a scabbard or a belt, and there should be a limit to this amount. This should aid in reducing the Freeman syndrome, whereby a scientist manages to hide several large and high powered weapons on a skin tight hazard suit.

My plan is to implement some sort of “slot” method, whereby you have so many slots on each part of the body. So your thigh might have 1 small slot for a small blade, whereas your waist would be able to hold around 6 medium slots for weapons and quivers, and the back offering 1 large slot for a pack / several smaller slots for weapons.

So I’d ask for your kind assistance in dealing with this matter. How many bolts / arrows would a quiver hold? How many slots would each body part yield? Is this even a good idea at all? I am concerned it might be a bit unbalancing, but if I manage a definitive system, I’ll discuss it with my players and see what they think.

Has anyone ever tried a system like this? Does one already exist? If so, I would be hugely appreciative of a link.

Any ideas, help or criticism is very much welcomed.
anders
01-16-05, 10:17 AM Arrows: An arrow used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (–4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger of its size (critical multiplier x2). Arrows come in a leather quiver that holds 20 arrows. An arrow that hits its target is destroyed; one that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.

I say just use common sense to determine what a player can carry, as the current system focuse more on weight than volume.

Hope this helps.
Dungeon Penguin
01-16-05, 11:58 AM Although it's listed that arrows come in quivers of 25, if you begin limiting the amount of available quivers, it might be a good idea to up their capacity a bit.

Does 25 or 30 arrows seem unreasonable?

I think the system would work best if things are generically assigned size values based on their listed sizes (as weapons), or by making it up. Then give every physical container that isn't designed for a specific purpose (like scabbards or quivers) a capacity value. So a small item my be 1 point, a medium 2 points and a large item 3 points.

It occurs to me that this makes the system overly complicated, though, so ignoring that system, perhaps a limit could be applied solely to weapons and ammunition.

I was thinking of a system similar to the following, from the feet up:

Each boot could hold one small item (like a dagger), or many smaller items (coins, etc.)

Each thigh could have capacity for one small blade (a shortsword or dagger strapped to the leg)

The character's waist would have capacity for one belt item (including a material component pouch, bandolier or potion / scroll holder). This belt would facilitate items being attached to it. 6 medium items (quivers or medium weapons) should fit, and many smaller items (purses, tools and the such), would also fit. Perhaps have 10 slots for smaller items.

The chest could also hold belts, as mentioned above, but items held here are likely to restrict the character, so no slots for items.

The back would facilitate large weapons and packs. I think two large weapons and one pack seems reasonable, but anything other than that becomes unreasonable.

This system has its merits, as it begins to restrict ridiculous overloading of items. As long as it isn't enforced too rigorously, it might work as a viable system.

Any thoughts? This could easily be expanded using the methods discussed above (that is, assigning items "size" values), but I don't see the need of it. This system is necesarry, but I think it would make a pleasant addition. Either that or I'm overly pedantic about trivial matters.

Edit: I can't type.
zodiki
01-16-05, 12:31 PM A quiver of arrows contains 20 arrows and weighs 3 lbs. Considering how long arrows are, I'd say you could have 1 quiver to shoot with and 1 quiver strapped on your back (which would require a full round action to ready) and that's all. The rest would have to be strapped on your mount, in the wagon, or carried by another character.

Bolts don't even come in quivers and would have to be carried by the character in his hands or in his backpack, then taken out to be used. Although I could see there being a special bandolier or quiver constructed to hold a number of them.
Dungeon Penguin
01-16-05, 12:44 PM That's an interesting point about the arrows.

With bolts, however, surely they could just be shoved in a suitably sized quiver as with arrows? Taking them out of a backpack seems a little too time consuming and unweildy.
evangelion1010
01-16-05, 01:38 PM It's been my experiance that its better to keep realism out of play if it hinders gameplay.

I don't think your ideas do that, too much. I just wouldn't make up a huge set of rules regarding it, since there are numerous exceptions (a rogue could carry 20+ daggers non-magically - see master thrower in CW)

This also isn't too much of a problem past level 5 - most archers have a quiver of elohonna by then, which can carry upwards of 120 arrows (if you convert the javalin section to hold arrows)

Also, portable holes work for storing weapons, and the party will likely have one of those to store spare weapons.

I'd say 2 quivers could be worn on your back, if you wore a backpack (one on either side - they'd be attached to the backpack). I'd say 2 scabbards would be roughly the limit, although it they were shortswords you could have them along your calf. Daggers and other small items would probably have a limit of 30 or so - a vest could hold 15, pants another 15.
Darts, shuriken, etc could be stored in pouches around the waist, so 100 shurkien or 50 darts...

Basically, i'd just tell your players to be reasonable, and if they aren't, tell them so, but don't make up a specific set of rules - you can't cover ever situation or combination.
Mouseman304
01-16-05, 01:50 PM Answer this one question for me where am I going to buy THOUSANDS OF ARROWS? shouldnt there be only a specific number the the merchant sells?
Just a sugestion
Dungeon Penguin
01-16-05, 02:05 PM Mouseman: After a couple of battles with some enemies using ranged weapons, it's not unreasonable to expect to have stockpiled a good hundred or so arrows. Although I fully agree, a few thousand is a little over the top.

Evangelion: I certainly agree with you. Unless it really becomes a problem, I won't have need to bring any of this into play, and I'd like to think I could trust my players to the point where it would not be an issue.

Having consulted someone infinately more knowledgable than myself (which would include most people), it would seem that, due to the length of an arrow, any quiver currently in use would have to be accessed from the waist or stabbed into soft ground. If anybody did want to use this idea for anything, the implications of the arrow' length would need to be taken into consideration.

As is, what I think I shall do is enforce a simple ruling that every weapon must have a logical place to reside on the body. This should, at the very least, make it clear that wandering around with three halberds on your person is impractical to the point of impossible.

Thanks for everyone's ideas. I've certainly learned a lot about ranged ammunition :)
deadDMwalking
01-16-05, 02:18 PM 2nd edition had a system that limited the amount a character could carry - based on volume of the item as well as weight.

I admit the system was a little unwieldly. What I suggest instead is enforcing standard restrictions on carrying capacity.

A character with a strength of 18 has a maximum light load of 100 pounds. Remember that 18 strength is well above human average. A Mr. Universe might have the equivalent of 20. Very few characters are willing to go above their light load.

If you count all the equipment they possess, if they're stockpiling weapons in an unreasonable fashion, they're almost as likely to be into their medium or heavy load. If you enforce those penalties, the problem should take care of itself.
ShadowDragon8685
01-16-05, 06:16 PM You've also got to remember how fast archers are going to burn through their ammo. When you think about this, then you realize how utterly RIDICULOUS it becomes to limit them like this.

I'm reminded of playing the Temple of Elemental Evil PC game. I burned through arrows and bolts at an incredible rate, if I didn't keep policing up the monster's ammo, I'd never have more. I could go through 30 or so in a single encounter at the lower levels.
penchant
01-17-05, 01:40 AM Regarding bolts and arrows. There are two different ways to carry them, One in a quiver where they are accessible and usable, and in a bundle where they are not. A quiver allows the arrows or bolts to be loose so they can be drawn quickly without snagging on one another. Bundled up you can carry alot more in the same amount of space. I would say that you can have about 100-300 arrows or bolts in a bundle the size of a bedroll but they are not usable in this form. Then you have arrows you plan to use in an easily accessible quiver. If you have a horse then you could carry a couple thousand arrows in baskets strapped where saddlebags would be. I agree about item placement and I usually hand out daigrams for players to figure out where all thier stuff is. They sometimes complain, but I remind them if they do then they can prove to me what stuff they have out on a surprise round.
Joe Khol
01-17-05, 10:01 AM I guess it depends on your players and style of game but I find a simple 'Don't take the Mickey' rule (well, that's almost what we call it! :) ) works just fine. If I think the players are being silly I tell them.

Maybe I'm spoilt with mature, sensible players.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dungeon Penguin 01-16-05, 09:31 AM	I'm just about to start a new campaign and was looking at solving some of the issues I had with my previous campaign through some simple house rules. One of my best ideas (not that it had any real competition) was to stop players hoarding various items, particularly ammunition. It really makes no sense that a single character should, with no magical aids, be able to carry thousands of bolts without penalty. If there’s something major in the rules I’ve overlooked here, please do correct me, but having looked over the rules for carrying capacities, they relate solely to weight. Ammunition is, of course, very light (my PHB tells me 1lb for 10), so a character with decent STR is going to be able to have a whole lot of quivers of bolts. My issue with this is that carrying all these quivers around is going to be difficult. Along with all the other tools the character has on their person, it doesn’t seem likely to me that they’d have that much room for 10 quivers of bolts or arrows. So my idea was to limit the amount of physical containers any one character can hope to carry, regardless of the weight therein. As such, every weapon should have some method of securing itself to the person, whether it’s a scabbard or a belt, and there should be a limit to this amount. This should aid in reducing the Freeman syndrome, whereby a scientist manages to hide several large and high powered weapons on a skin tight hazard suit. My plan is to implement some sort of “slot” method, whereby you have so many slots on each part of the body. So your thigh might have 1 small slot for a small blade, whereas your waist would be able to hold around 6 medium slots for weapons and quivers, and the back offering 1 large slot for a pack / several smaller slots for weapons. So I’d ask for your kind assistance in dealing with this matter. How many bolts / arrows would a quiver hold? How many slots would each body part yield? Is this even a good idea at all? I am concerned it might be a bit unbalancing, but if I manage a definitive system, I’ll discuss it with my players and see what they think. Has anyone ever tried a system like this? Does one already exist? If so, I would be hugely appreciative of a link. Any ideas, help or criticism is very much welcomed.
anders 01-16-05, 10:17 AM	Arrows: An arrow used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (–4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger of its size (critical multiplier x2). Arrows come in a leather quiver that holds 20 arrows. An arrow that hits its target is destroyed; one that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost. I say just use common sense to determine what a player can carry, as the current system focuse more on weight than volume. Hope this helps.
Dungeon Penguin 01-16-05, 11:58 AM	Although it's listed that arrows come in quivers of 25, if you begin limiting the amount of available quivers, it might be a good idea to up their capacity a bit. Does 25 or 30 arrows seem unreasonable? I think the system would work best if things are generically assigned size values based on their listed sizes (as weapons), or by making it up. Then give every physical container that isn't designed for a specific purpose (like scabbards or quivers) a capacity value. So a small item my be 1 point, a medium 2 points and a large item 3 points. It occurs to me that this makes the system overly complicated, though, so ignoring that system, perhaps a limit could be applied solely to weapons and ammunition. I was thinking of a system similar to the following, from the feet up: Each boot could hold one small item (like a dagger), or many smaller items (coins, etc.) Each thigh could have capacity for one small blade (a shortsword or dagger strapped to the leg) The character's waist would have capacity for one belt item (including a material component pouch, bandolier or potion / scroll holder). This belt would facilitate items being attached to it. 6 medium items (quivers or medium weapons) should fit, and many smaller items (purses, tools and the such), would also fit. Perhaps have 10 slots for smaller items. The chest could also hold belts, as mentioned above, but items held here are likely to restrict the character, so no slots for items. The back would facilitate large weapons and packs. I think two large weapons and one pack seems reasonable, but anything other than that becomes unreasonable. This system has its merits, as it begins to restrict ridiculous overloading of items. As long as it isn't enforced too rigorously, it might work as a viable system. Any thoughts? This could easily be expanded using the methods discussed above (that is, assigning items "size" values), but I don't see the need of it. This system is necesarry, but I think it would make a pleasant addition. Either that or I'm overly pedantic about trivial matters. Edit: I can't type.
zodiki 01-16-05, 12:31 PM	A quiver of arrows contains 20 arrows and weighs 3 lbs. Considering how long arrows are, I'd say you could have 1 quiver to shoot with and 1 quiver strapped on your back (which would require a full round action to ready) and that's all. The rest would have to be strapped on your mount, in the wagon, or carried by another character. Bolts don't even come in quivers and would have to be carried by the character in his hands or in his backpack, then taken out to be used. Although I could see there being a special bandolier or quiver constructed to hold a number of them.
Dungeon Penguin 01-16-05, 12:44 PM	That's an interesting point about the arrows. With bolts, however, surely they could just be shoved in a suitably sized quiver as with arrows? Taking them out of a backpack seems a little too time consuming and unweildy.
evangelion1010 01-16-05, 01:38 PM	It's been my experiance that its better to keep realism out of play if it hinders gameplay. I don't think your ideas do that, too much. I just wouldn't make up a huge set of rules regarding it, since there are numerous exceptions (a rogue could carry 20+ daggers non-magically - see master thrower in CW) This also isn't too much of a problem past level 5 - most archers have a quiver of elohonna by then, which can carry upwards of 120 arrows (if you convert the javalin section to hold arrows) Also, portable holes work for storing weapons, and the party will likely have one of those to store spare weapons. I'd say 2 quivers could be worn on your back, if you wore a backpack (one on either side - they'd be attached to the backpack). I'd say 2 scabbards would be roughly the limit, although it they were shortswords you could have them along your calf. Daggers and other small items would probably have a limit of 30 or so - a vest could hold 15, pants another 15. Darts, shuriken, etc could be stored in pouches around the waist, so 100 shurkien or 50 darts... Basically, i'd just tell your players to be reasonable, and if they aren't, tell them so, but don't make up a specific set of rules - you can't cover ever situation or combination.
Mouseman304 01-16-05, 01:50 PM	Answer this one question for me where am I going to buy THOUSANDS OF ARROWS? shouldnt there be only a specific number the the merchant sells? Just a sugestion
Dungeon Penguin 01-16-05, 02:05 PM	Mouseman: After a couple of battles with some enemies using ranged weapons, it's not unreasonable to expect to have stockpiled a good hundred or so arrows. Although I fully agree, a few thousand is a little over the top. Evangelion: I certainly agree with you. Unless it really becomes a problem, I won't have need to bring any of this into play, and I'd like to think I could trust my players to the point where it would not be an issue. Having consulted someone infinately more knowledgable than myself (which would include most people), it would seem that, due to the length of an arrow, any quiver currently in use would have to be accessed from the waist or stabbed into soft ground. If anybody did want to use this idea for anything, the implications of the arrow' length would need to be taken into consideration. As is, what I think I shall do is enforce a simple ruling that every weapon must have a logical place to reside on the body. This should, at the very least, make it clear that wandering around with three halberds on your person is impractical to the point of impossible. Thanks for everyone's ideas. I've certainly learned a lot about ranged ammunition :)
deadDMwalking 01-16-05, 02:18 PM	2nd edition had a system that limited the amount a character could carry - based on volume of the item as well as weight. I admit the system was a little unwieldly. What I suggest instead is enforcing standard restrictions on carrying capacity. A character with a strength of 18 has a maximum light load of 100 pounds. Remember that 18 strength is well above human average. A Mr. Universe might have the equivalent of 20. Very few characters are willing to go above their light load. If you count all the equipment they possess, if they're stockpiling weapons in an unreasonable fashion, they're almost as likely to be into their medium or heavy load. If you enforce those penalties, the problem should take care of itself.
ShadowDragon8685 01-16-05, 06:16 PM	You've also got to remember how fast archers are going to burn through their ammo. When you think about this, then you realize how utterly RIDICULOUS it becomes to limit them like this. I'm reminded of playing the Temple of Elemental Evil PC game. I burned through arrows and bolts at an incredible rate, if I didn't keep policing up the monster's ammo, I'd never have more. I could go through 30 or so in a single encounter at the lower levels.
penchant 01-17-05, 01:40 AM	Regarding bolts and arrows. There are two different ways to carry them, One in a quiver where they are accessible and usable, and in a bundle where they are not. A quiver allows the arrows or bolts to be loose so they can be drawn quickly without snagging on one another. Bundled up you can carry alot more in the same amount of space. I would say that you can have about 100-300 arrows or bolts in a bundle the size of a bedroll but they are not usable in this form. Then you have arrows you plan to use in an easily accessible quiver. If you have a horse then you could carry a couple thousand arrows in baskets strapped where saddlebags would be. I agree about item placement and I usually hand out daigrams for players to figure out where all thier stuff is. They sometimes complain, but I remind them if they do then they can prove to me what stuff they have out on a surprise round.
Joe Khol 01-17-05, 10:01 AM	I guess it depends on your players and style of game but I find a simple 'Don't take the Mickey' rule (well, that's almost what we call it! :) ) works just fine. If I think the players are being silly I tell them. Maybe I'm spoilt with mature, sensible players.