Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TelinArtho 11-09-04, 01:56 PM	Okay, so I'm the DM in my game and my group of players is currently trying to thwart the plans of a rather beligerant pit fiend who seems to think of himself as a god... The players are 11th level (Fighter/Paladin, Ranger/Cleric of Nature, Cleric of Water, and Sorcerer) and have the company of two rather powerful NPCs (17th level Wizard and Very Old Silver Dragon). The place they need to get to is some 1000 miles away, so flight seems the most natural way to get there (read: safest...). The players also have the option of recruiting a rather substantial force (or army if they work hard enough at it), which brings me to my question: just how much can a silver dragon carry? Rules here are 3.0 - and this is what I (think I) know: 1. You can only fly while under lightly encumbered. 2. The dragon is of huge size and has a 33 Str. 3. According to the encumbrance table, that would mean the dragon could carry: [23 str can carry 200, 33 would be 4x this or 800] * [huge size 6x] = 4800 pounds. Sounds formidable. Does the dragon count as a quadruped in this case? I'm assuming not. Okay, so 4800 pounds. If they weight a total of 300 per player (reasonable since most players are under that and the paladin is probably more...), they are 1500 pounds. That would leave them with about 3300 pounds - or about 11 other possible NPC hirelings. Sound reasonable? Is it reasonable to have a huge dragon carry 16 riders - not for flying combat mind you...? If anyone can offer another point of view - that would be great. /d
Board_Rider 11-09-04, 02:13 PM	Sounds reasonable to me. Why can't the sorcerer just teleport? The dragon doesn't have to be encumbered lightly IMO. If this isn't an integral part of your campaign, but the destination is, I would just go with it.
clarkvalentine 11-09-04, 02:28 PM	Although I could imagine the dragon saying "What, do I look like a Greyhound bus to you?" :D
TelinArtho 11-09-04, 02:47 PM	Well, the sorcerer can't teleport, because I forgot about a couple things for her a) she's only 10th level and b) she's got a couple levels of fighter... Regardless, I'd imagine teleport would be a little risky - as only the dragon has been to the destination and only once at that. While the powerful NPC has Teleportation Circle - no one really knows the area well enough to describe. (Honestly, the travel is a bit of a DMs tool anyway - as they "need" to have a few "flavor" encounters along the way to gauge just how bad things have gotten.) As far as how much the dragon can carry, I realize I can just allow it to happen regardless of the weight - but I did want to add in options for the players - as the flight is not forced by any means. If the players choose to enlist a rather immense army (say 50+ trained fighters, spell-casters and clerics), then they will have to deal with the perils of spending the extra time walking to their destination. Since the destination is located ~1000 miles away - by dragon flight that's about a week, by walking it would be upwards of a month or two (probably 2 because at the tail end of the journey, there's 40 miles of mountains to cross...). In actuality, I can see the players just going on their own anyway (maybe with the dragon and the wizard) up to the destination spot. Beyond that though, I can bet that they will go on their own (to a very difficult battle...). /d
Gamebird 11-09-04, 03:21 PM	Other things to keep in mind: Reduce - can significantly decrease the weight of a party Phantom Steed - can be made for others and can really speed up the group due to long duration Fly - relatively short duration limits it, but it can be used successively on heavy creatures like mounts Tenser's Disk - I forget if this moves with you or is static at MV 20 Transport of mounts - if you have a paladin or other character that owns a mount/steed, how are they going to get that thing to the new location? Bag of Holding/Portable Hole for gear - the party can stick everything non-living into the bag to reduce their applicable weight. Wild Shape - if you have a druid, they can Wild Shape into something with wings that can move with the dragon, perhaps carrying stuff on its own
TelinArtho 11-09-04, 03:56 PM	I actually feel bad for the Paladin as he hasn't had the time to get his special mount yet - and as such, none of the players have mounts yet (though the ranger does have a companion crocodile...). Phantom steed is actually a reasonable option as the wizard could cast that a few times in a day to get a few extra hired hands that would be able to keep up with the dragon. Fly is too short a duration to be effective and would not be able to keep pace with the dragon. Floating disk might work if the dragon were the caster (according to the spell it is as fast as the caster's normal movement...), but it would only be able to hover at 3ft - so flying is then out of the question. They don't have a bag of holding or portable hole - so they're out of luck there... None of the players is a druid. Reduce would be a viable option but the duration is too short (1 min/lvl). ------------------------- All in all, I think 11 hired swords would be more than enough to help them in their task (essentially the hired swords will provide a temporary distraction to the party's enemies...). /d
Derren S. 11-09-04, 06:01 PM	Dragons count as quadrupled. That means the silver can carry a lot of people, the problem is rather the available space than the weights. If your players could build a gondola the dragon can carry they would be able to transport many people, but when riding on its back it isn't posible to fit that many people on the dragon. There is simply no space for them.
silvermist 11-10-04, 10:35 AM	to ride anything one needs a saddle (or perhaps a really good ride check, depending on the campaign), this would mean 15 or so exotic saddles, which is a lot of cost. the dragon could reasonably carry four players without saddles (in its claws) but the others would need a means of staying on said dragon while it is going really fast wherever it is going. also a few other things a)consider small size hirelings. many are as good of fighters as any other b)consider hirelings with wings. there are a few playable pc/npc races that are already winged. this would depend of course on such races existing in your world but... c)arms and equipment has all kinds of information on transportation vehicles and mounts d)one of the books (i think eberon) has information for an airship. think a cross between a zephyr and a flying boat (as in peter pan) its magical, not so much technological, so it should fit in most campaigns and its really really cool.
TelinArtho 11-10-04, 11:13 AM	silvermist: (from the SRD for 3.0) "Check: Typical riding actions don't require checks" Now I realize that the dragon is no ordinary mount, but at the same time, all the NPCs need to do is hold on - and presumably, the dragon is able to "help" people stay on board. Since the dragon is a means of transportation - not an assault vehicle (and therefore will not be ridden into battle), I'm not planning on using ride checks for the travel (the players have enough going against them that having the possibility of falling off of the dragon would be a little too much I think...) With regard to the other points: 1. small hirelings - yes this is an option, but they pretty much have to deal with what is available in the city or along the way. While some halflings are probably around, I wouldn't count on the specific needs of the party (fairly well-trained companions). 2. Hirelings with wings - within the city this simply isn't an option. Those who do have wings are either a) aristocrats or prominent figures in the community or b) part of the problem (the world is slowly being infested with devils etc - winged creatures are on the PCs list of "bad" things. Aaracokra and such in the mountains are of course an option, but they won't need the flying capability once they get to the mountains... In short, the PCs wouldn't be able to build a force with winged companions... 3. Don't have the arms and equipment guide - so I can't comment much on this. 5. An airship might be an option if they had more time. Time is a big issue here, let me explain: The BBEG (a huge pit fiend) is currently trying to regain control over this portion of the world (he had once before controlled a significant portion of it, but was captured) and as such is grabbing as much as he can as quickly as he can. Since the players' actions do not happen in a vaccuum - they need to be aware that if they slow down, the pace of the capturing of the world will not slow down with them. To make matters worse, the players have failed to recover one of the most powerful NPCs that could help them (not only with information), AND their current method of travel to this point cost them about 2-3 weeks already. In short - it looks like the BBEG will be taking over (and therefore the players will then need to recover the known world - a much harder task then prevention...) So essentially, they are about 2-3 weeks behind in game time from where they "should" be. Things are not impossible at this point - but they are definitely getting there... If the players choose to walk the distance - and take 6-8 weeks instead of flying and taking 1 week to get to their destination - the situation of the world changes dramatically... Honestly - I'm not even sure they should recruit anyone - as negotiations like that could cost them about a week (to recruit say 40-50 good hirelings). With that extra week things could change dramatically, depending on what specific events are on the brink (don't have my notes with me - so it might not be too big of a deal). If they left now - they would effectively save themselves a week, and put themselves slightly back on track (only 1-2 weeks behind). /d
TelinArtho 12-17-04, 02:45 PM	In an effort to bring this issue to a close, I figured I'd post what the players decided upon for the transporting of the people. One of the issues they had was a cleric with the animal domain who has a dire boar companion. The dire boar weighs in at about 2000 pounds - so bringing it was going to be an issue. Reduce wasn't too much of an option because of the short duration, but a spell was found that would work - Wind Walk. For anyone who is in this kind of situation (or a situation where you need to move a great distance quickly) - wind walk is your spell. /d