Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ImmortalBlueMage 03-04-06, 01:27 AM	Here's the makeup of my current group of PCs: Fighter 2/Psion 4 Cleric 2/Wizard 4 Rogue 1/Bard 5 Sorcerer 5 Artificer 5 Notice anything? Yeah, lots of casters. While this doesn't seem like it would be that big of a problem, it really is. If I run too many or too challenging encounters during a day, they blow their load and use up all their spells/power points in one go and then have to retreat for an impromptu naptime before going on with the adventure (which means slow-going). If I cut it down to one or two encounters per day or drop the average CR of the enemies then they proceed to blow the opposition completely away with a barrage of spells. If it weren't for the Psion's two levels of Fighter the situation would be even worse, but his effectiveness as a tank is going to continue to diminish unless he puts more levels in that direction, and even so he's primarily a Psion and has the same problem as the rest of the group with his powers being based on a finite per-day system. I'm now almost convinced that they'll never complete the current dungeon, as they've retreated for rest so many times that any progress they've made is completely nullified. Much more of this and the bad guys will either up their security to the point that the group will be completely destroyed next time they try to head in, or (more likely) the key villains will just pick up and move to a more secure HQ elsewhere, bringing all their treasure and their important hostage with them.
DaMullet 03-04-06, 01:38 AM	You could always gear the encounters more towards magic users (IE, a beholder opposed by a Sorcerer, instead of opposition by Barbarian). Having only one 'super' encounter each day slows things down a little bit, but if you plan for it, it's not so bad. You could also have a campaign heavy in magic items, especially scrolls, wands, and spell-storing stuff. A less reasonable way would be to force an NPC onto the party, or insist that everyone multiclass into something Melee style.
Polaris 03-04-06, 02:07 AM	Immortal Blue Mage, The problem is that the real power after low levels is in spell casting and your players seem to know it. The other problem is your party isn't quite high enough level to be there and your party has pretty cruddy casters. Cleric 2/Wiz 4......UGHH! The only cleric you have in the party at sixth level is SECOND LEVEL. No wonder your party is having problems with a typical dungeon. At the very least, he should be shooting for mystic theurge (and be Cleric 3/Wiz 3). Fighter2/Psion 4. This isn't SO bad except the Psion doesn't get enough power points to reliably last all day even at his CR (this is a deliberate design decision btw) and he's lost two levels. Fortunately Fighter and Psion synergize reasonably well, but he'd be SO much better off being a Psychic Warrior given that he is the only one that has front line combat ability (or a Ranger/Psion going for Illithid Slayer). Rogue 1/Bard 5. This combination is so bad it wants to make Baby Jesus cry. The Bard is a support class (and not a terribly strong one at that) and the single level of rogue makes it weaker. However, the rogue doesn't get the skill points and sneak attack to really make the class shine. Socerer 5. This is probably the strongest character of the group which is saying something. Artificer 5. This is probably (tied) for the strongest character in the group. The problem here is that the Artificer revolves around item creation and less around dungeon crawling. In short, not only do you have a caster heavy party, you have a BAD (in terms of power for their CR) caster level party. In particular, the party has a severe shortage of divine healing magic which is essential. -Polaris
Mist of Shadows 03-04-06, 02:21 AM	Fighter 2/Psion 4 alright if you're gunning for a fighting prestiege class with psionic abilities Cleric 2/Wizard 4 Not so bad really, just take your next level in cleric, then go mystical thuerge. that fourth level of wizard doesn't really hurt anything. (you can only take 10 levels of mt anyways.) look around after that level of cleric for things to help with casting and you will be fine. Rogue 1/Bard 5 gah take that second level of rogue then go arcane trickster maybe take a few levels of bard classes that advance spell casting as well. Before switching out for sublime chord. Sorcerer 5 find a prestige class and jump on it and hug it. Straight sorcs aren't that great. Artificer 5 er yeah nothing to fix here. As for the current part of things, nothing wrong with rushing the place blasting wholes in things then hiding in a rope trick inside the dungeon. Then pressing on. There is also nothing wrong with retreating and tring something else. Short hit and run is great for a while until you have the firepower to last later.
allenchan 03-04-06, 02:22 AM	I second everything Polaris said.
Mitchell 03-04-06, 04:25 AM	Yeah, I'm not familiar with the artificer, but it does seem like they are all playing for something down the road, and no one can really do much *now*. Let them keep on keeping on, I guess. Either they will learn to play off of each other and conserve some firepower, or they will continue to do what they are doing and not get anything done. This is a good time for end of adventure xp awards, not encounter by encounter awards. I understand that using magic in theory allows you to wield it more effectively (more and more powerful spells), but if you can't even get a simple job done... If the players all generated together or knew what was already in the party before they created their characters, I wouldn't hold back. They put themselves in this position, and you with them. You are trying to figure out how to pull them through, and that isn't your job, really. You should present obtainable goals, and if they can't win a fair fight without expending all of their resources, they need to refigure their makeup. I could see if it was designated beforehand, something like no magic or all arcane or all clerics or something, but for all of them to do this? This is lack of teamwork at it's most basic. It doesn't matter how well they get along if they can't get anything done.
Board_Rider 03-04-06, 09:31 AM	Well the ol' BR will have to play the role of the heavy handed a**hole DM here. I agree with everything Polaris wrote and then Mist of Shadows pretty much cleaned up anything that I would have offered. Soooooo, Rush them. Put them in a meat grinder of low CR monsters an make them play intelligently. Let them know that these slow goings won't happen as there is a timetable to be met for something. Basically, what you want to do is press upon them to play a bit smarter and stop relying on the big spell and then go and rest...which is a "rule" I hat BTW. I understand that a party must lick their wounds at times but resting for eight hours, going through an encounter, then resting again is just retarted.
ashcat_lt 03-04-06, 11:55 AM	Or you could get them out of the dungeon and into something more role-play intensive. You've got at least two high cha characters and the rest must have pretty high int. This would seem to make them just perfect for some intrigue/investigation/negotiation type adventures. Give your wiz/cleric a reason to memorize some of those "boring" spells. This may require a total overhaul of your campaign, but maybe you can find a way to salvage it. Look at what you thought they were going to do, assign an NPC party to go through that, and have your PCs involved in the stuff you thought would be "behind the scenes".
astute1 03-04-06, 02:01 PM	Board Rider's got it right. You need to force them to play intelligently. The group I DM for is caster-heavy as well (cleric/RSoSF, artificer, wizard, druid, swashbuckler/dragonmark heir, ranger/reachrunner.) They need to learn to ration their spells. Throwing massive groups of weak enemies at them will teach them about this. You can especially try throwing groups of weak enemies who have some spell resistance (drow and dretch are two that come to mind.)
Mist of Shadows 03-04-06, 04:43 PM	It seems to me like it's a matter of showing the players that they are on a time schedule. Have some important npc die or something because they were painfully show. Have the fact that they wanted to treat resting like a pc game come back to bite them. If that is how you want to look at it go with that. Other wise toss the low level monsters at them and offer the suggestions on how to fix the characters. I would most likely take say 20 minutes before the game (maybe even show up early) to have a something is wrong talk. Offer the suggestions on how to improve the characters a touch. Talk to them about having at least some martial ability within the casters. Nothing says that a high caster group can't work but it's a very different game. Best luck though for what ever you decide.
Lord Ian Stark 03-04-06, 05:10 PM	I agree with the others. This resting after every battle is crap. Why do people think things in a dungeon don't react to the PC's killing it's inhabitants. When some creatures notice that others have been slaughtered they may do a patrol or set traps in the area that the others were killed in amongst other things. No matter what, the idea of the monsters in the room next to the slaughtered ones just sitting there waiting for the PC's to rest up and gain them spells back is stupid and bad DMing IMO. Even on a failed listen check, why do enemies just hang out in one room "all day." The PC's need to constantly be interupted while they attempt to rest until they realize they need to leave the dungeon first. Then while they are gone the inhabitants set new traps and reactivate the old ones and change things around so the PC's are back at square one everytime.
Polaris 03-04-06, 05:16 PM	As I said before, the big reason the PC are resting after every battle is that the ONLY source of divine healing for 5 sixth level characters comes from a second level cleric. That is a disaster waiting to happen. -Polaris
allenchan 03-04-06, 05:20 PM	Bards can heal, and they should have multiple wands of CLW. But since their builds seem pretty poor, its a fair guess they do not.
Tyrasius 03-04-06, 05:30 PM	Okay maybe someone has already mentioned this but, just use the rule where every time you leave a dungeon you have a random encounter chance. That will make them less likely to constantly leave the dungeon and will probably take something that doesn't run out of its attacks next level.
Lord Ian Stark 03-04-06, 05:34 PM	As I said before, the big reason the PC are resting after every battle is that the ONLY source of divine healing for 5 sixth level characters comes from a second level cleric. And as I said before, don't let them unless they can find a safe place to rest. (I assume they aren't useing rope trick and other safe havens) Like allenchan said, it's only a little over 700 GP for a cure light wounds wand of 50 charges. A six level party can easily afford many of these. :rolleyes:
Mist of Shadows 03-04-06, 05:35 PM	Yeah well it's not that the builds are poor per say. It's that they are sort of in the wrong order of things. Other then the sorc no one has completely screwed over their character yet as far as things go. They just need a touch of help and direction. As for the fights yeah the monsters should fortify the area. Wands of cure light wounds would help a lot in this case. Anything to get over the hump of uselessness the party created when they decided to play a caster heavy group but not have a blasting party can really can power through a section of dungeon loot and run. Hiring some expendibles would help. One or two warrior npcs would be great offer a share of gold to them. When they die loot their bodies. The classes just need a little time and a level or two before they start being able to eat up monsters. allenchan has a point with the bard being able to heal. (at least he should be able too.) They have at least one (the rogue) that can sneak. Even if he just have 4 ranks and a dex mod of 3 that's still a good shot at sneaking through some areas and scouting. There are so many ways to save this party that it's rather painful that they are having problems. My suggestion is to point out some stratagies for the party and to maybe switch a bit to a face based party for a bit. They should be able to con talk some warriors into helping them. Talk another friend into running a warrior for a while even if only a few sessions.
Zombie Carl 03-04-06, 05:44 PM	If I were you I would definately go the star wars style route: Have them join a high arcane circle of mages (or whatever), and they are having trouble with a cabal of dark mages who are indulging in maniacal laughter a little too much. The party has to go out and stop a particular summoning ritual on a particular night out on a mountaintop tower - cue huge spellcaster battle that'll look like the daddy of anything LoTR could crap out; the tower gets progressively levelled and through mucho clever timing with their spells and a little bit of luck they'll be victorious, and go home to all their various magik-ey peers cupping their hands over their mouths and going "crrrrrrrrkkkkkkkkkk!" to mimic the noise of a crowd cheer as they walk back into their high circle of doo-dads. the players'll love the prestige of it when they get back, too. "I motion we vote Yoda and Windu off the council." "No." "Sorry Mace, 5 to 2. Now get out."
Good Agnostic 03-04-06, 06:02 PM	A guy on my local board (Critical Hit) always says that a party without a cleric is a self correcting problem. A party without the divine healing power it needs will lose people. At some point, one of the players rolling up a new character will realize he should be creating a cleric. Adventures, and dungeons, are dynamic living things. Once the party enters, the whole dungeon will react - if the most basic communication or alarm systems are in place (skeleton with a dinner bell, anyone?). Let the cards fall where they may. People will roll up new characters to deal with the poor party composition.
Oakspar77777 03-04-06, 08:59 PM	I am not sure that the "meat grinder" solution is the correct one, and I KNOW that the "kill the PCs until they get smarter builds" is not. The real problem is that the party is determining the rate and timing of encounters, and therefore, do not feel the necessity of conservation. Also, as spellcaters, they have not yet jumped over the SPLV3 divide. It is at SPLV3 that mages can begin to hold thier own. Every encounter is an exercise in consuming resources from the group. A typical low level party will rely on the Melee tank allowing his HP resources to be consumed, and then replinished by the party healer (since healing magic is more efficient than damaging magic at low levels). Now, once that Wiz/Sorc gets to 3rd level spell, he stops being a back-up archer and starts becoming a cannon. As levels progress, the party depends more and more on the mage's increasing ability to blow up the enemy, and the melee character's damage is less important than his role as a living wall to protect him (and the cleric continues to repair that wall). Now, your party is lacking two key resources: HP and the ability to repair HP. Damage is tied to spells, and spells are still to restricted to have much impact beyond the first few encounters. WHAT your party needs is (1) some wands of CLW and MM. Those are cheap, useful wands, that the majority of the party can use, and can serve to keep the party going after natural spells wore off. (2) They need strategy. They need to think about how they are going to face off against enemies. How to get there: 1) The Fighter/Psion - It sounds like he is continuing in the Psion direction. If he is aiming for a PrC, he should be there in a level or two. I am not very familiar with Psions, as I have not run any Psion parties for several years. If the Fighter levels are a "mistake" made by a character change, consider allowing him to slowly convert them to Psion levels (by "spending" that 1000 and 2000XP amounts to re-earn those levels as a Psion at a set rate, like 10 or 25%, since XP comes quicker later on, it is a reasonable cost, since he will loose HP, BAB, and the like for the extra caster levels). I often do this with early players who start of with one class, and then, in game wish to have a different character type, but don't want to kill off and re-roll a new character (which is a laudable connection to the role-playing aspect of the game). 2) The Cleric/Wizard really should have gone 3 and 3. Then, he would be set up for the MT PrC. The MT PrC is the perfect class for a caster heavy party. Council him to become a "passive" combatant, since he is the primary First Aid for the party. Using Buffs, Summons, and Cure under the protection of spells like Invisability and Sanctuary can make him the most useful (if least flashy) character in the party. He can be safe, build a disposable wall, and prepare his party for boss encounters and repair damage that gets through. In less caster heavy parties he can also be an all-for-half magic item producer, but in this party, I would suggest that he keep every XP possible going towards driving that MT class higher. He also should be one character with little need for back up spell items, since a mid level MT has an insane number of spells to cast in a day. Untill then, a wand of CLW would go far. 3) Rogue/Bard - There is a finesse fighter sitting under this class, which can fill a non-caster hole. Deulist and Arcane Deulist (and better yet, a little of both) can quickly make a Rapier maniac, who, short on HP is almost imposible to hit with sufficint MAD (which the MT character could grant). I would suggest more Rogue levels, and that the player would consider the spellcasting more of an additional ability rather than an avenue of power. A second wand of CLW here would be good. 4) Sorcerer - Okay, this is the guy who should be dedicated to strait up blasting: MM, MAA, and soon, FB. A Wand of MM (3 or 5th level if affordable) would be a good use of money for holding the Sorcerer up for the next few levels as he gets up to the point of being an all day blaster. Also, stress that he does not need to be shooting a spell every round of every combat, nor does he need to start from the top down. Letting the Deulist take care of two orcs and only using a Magic Missile to take out if there is a third should be encouraged. Too many sorcerers are Black Mage Haddokken addicts. 5) Artificer - I actually do not know this class (making me guess that it is Ebberron). Sounds like a Wizard-light caster who makes items and constructs. If that is the case, he should carry on and work towards being the supply wagon for the party. All that said, it seems to me that killing of the party with a meat grinder or other method will be met with resistance, since that is a metagame answer to a metagame problem (as a caster party is only a problem in the metagame). Instead, I would give them "hit or miss" challenges. Have orcs kidnap some villagers. If they can get them out in one attempt, the villagers are saved and good things happen to the party. If they have to back off and try again, have the Orcs kill the villagers, making it, while still an obtainable adventure, one that is a mission of mercy if the party plays well, but a mission of retribution if they do not. Let them know (outside of the game, if you must) that they lost out on reward for having to back off and rest. Players resent having things taken away from them that they have worked hard to achieve, but will work much harder gladly for greater reward. Also, don't feel bad about an all caster party. I have DMed those before, and while they are rough in the early game, once they come into their own, they can be alot of fun (but a real challenge to DM, as they can Fly, Fireball, Teleport arround the battlefield, blast groups of small enemies, Save or die multiple times at once a BBEG, and then dissapear into the far corners of the multiverse).