Casters as foes. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Casters as foes. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
myusernameis
07-29-07, 07:36 PM Alright, I've read through all the "fighter versus caster" threads and know well alot of the arguements in them but one thing keeps coming up as an arguement for casters being balanced: they have to conserve spells to make it through an adventure. This is something I agree with, a DM who carefully makes his adventures can manage casters easily enough as player characters. But I've had one flaw in this, casters as foes in my games tend to end up being alot tougher than they should be due to the fact they can blow through their spells quickly against the players with no repercusions to them (afterall, they're meant to survive the one encounter). Now would I be out of line in rating primary casting classes as a CR or two higher for the purposes of experience rewards and determining if the party can handle them?
mortalgod666
07-29-07, 07:40 PM Huh.their sapposed to last a single encounter?I always play out ( even my lesser) NPC casters as if PC( in that I meen I use only a couple spells,mainly before the stronger units charge in against the PCs) I also try to have them fall back and reinforce every chance( or most of the time)But really i would say maybe 1 cr higher.just my opinion.
Vrael
07-29-07, 07:40 PM Well... maybe one higher. That spell level really makes a big difference, I wouldn't see it as being too out of line, depending on the caster.
Me, Myself, & 101 others
07-29-07, 07:44 PM Possibly, but you only need to raise the CR if your party is having a tough time defeating them. If casters don't give them too much more in the way of a problem, then they're not any more of a challence (so no higher CR). If, though, they have real problems with casters I can see making their CR a level or maybe even two higher. Really, though, if the casters are an issue for them they need to work on their tactics. Otherwise, things'll never change because they'll get more xp, go up in ECL, which will increase the CR of the enemies... So, I'd encourage them to start thinking about finding tactical advantages against caster-types.

Another thought would be to make it so that the casters aren't 'disposable.' Like, a couple casters show up with a few grunt-types. The grunts engage and the casters act as artillery. As the grunts fall, the casters retreat. Then they gather a few more minions and repeat. Do this a couple times and the enemy casters will indeed have to mind their spells. And, when the party finally kills the annoying retreating caster they'll get much more satisfaction out of it.
From_the_Far_Realm
07-29-07, 09:03 PM Bear in mind the mental aspects of being a caster. Wizards are generally super intelligent, clerics and druids very insightful, bards and sorcorers very forceful of personality. Maybe they shouldn't be destined to die after a round or so of combat. Self-preservation is a strong motivator, and those with the means and foresight to ensure survival should certainly make this a priority. If this makes escape the norm, with repercussions/revenge, then so be it; just make them less frequent. Fighting one evil caster over the course of several levels or adventures makes them more memorable than a sucession of generic casters anyway.
BloodSpill
07-29-07, 09:14 PM Make it that any spellcaster your party comes across has already blown half their spell slots that day unless they it is not a chance encounter.

This suggestion was put forward in Complete Psionic, but it is just as valid for casters.
Sildatorak
07-29-07, 09:33 PM Considering that classed NPC's are generally somewhat weak for their CR, I think that it is unnecessary that casters take a CR hike. They are harder to fight than melee foes in a single encounter, but that is more of a deficiency in fighter types compared to monsters than anything else.
Nephlite
07-29-07, 11:26 PM Considering that classed NPC's are generally somewhat weak for their CR, I think that it is unnecessary that casters take a CR hike. They are harder to fight than melee foes in a single encounter, but that is more of a deficiency in fighter types compared to monsters than anything else.

NPCs are only weaker in gear. Physical characters rely more on gear than casters.
Sildatorak
07-29-07, 11:35 PM NPCs are only weaker in gear.I'm not talking about NPC's vs. PC's. I'm talking about NPC's vs. monsters. An ogre is more challenging than a level 3 fighter.
runestar
07-29-07, 11:37 PM Huh.their sapposed to last a single encounter?I always play out ( even my lesser) NPC casters as if PC( in that I meen I use only a couple spells,mainly before the stronger units charge in against the PCs)

Depends on how you rationalize it. Those spells he is saving for a possible future encounter will only be of use if he actually survives the current fight. Meaning that when push comes to shove, you should pretty much expect him to start busting out the big guns and go nova in a bid to survive.

A 5th lv wizard who wins initiative starts battle with a sudden empowered and sudden maximized fireball. He has done his job, regardless of whether you kill him or not.:D

A 9th lv wizard making tactical use of solid fog, evard's black tentacles, cloudkill and mass reduce person can be a real headache for the party to overcome.
Thinker89
07-30-07, 03:07 AM I would almost never reduce the amount of spells going for a caster especially if they are like the BBEG. These guys are generally found sitting around in some dungeon or castle or somewhere else not really doing anything I doubt they would need to use any spells there. I mean should you put the fighter at 3/4 hit points because during the day he loses them in fighting. Well, no, unless he has actually been fighting during the day. So overall I would very rarely take away spells from my NPC casters.

As for bumping up the CR on casters because they are more powerful than melee characters is possibly a good idea. Sorry, to lazy/tiried to explain any thoughts here, lol.
EchoXero
07-30-07, 03:43 AM I can understand bumping the CR of a caster, but don't automatically do it. You should base the decision on how the combat goes. In a recent session, where I was playing as a PC, due to a horrible inititative, the enemy caster didn't last long enough to cast a single spell. I don't think that would warrent a CR Boost. Again, base the decision to boost CR on the outcome and events of the encounter.
Chie
07-30-07, 03:51 AM I don't think a CR hike is really warranted.Remember if the caster is by himself then it's maybe 3-6 PC's against the one caster.And the PC's probably have their own caster or CoDzilla on their side (or more than one).While the PC caster isn't likely to be at full power the other PC's should more than compensate (or much more than compensate depending on the party composition).Of course tactics are also a factor in this,but even if the enemy wizard goes nova the other PC's should be able to hold their own unless they've been seriously weakened by the battles prior to the caster;in which case they should probably be running back to a rest point.

And if the enemy mage isn't alone then that would raise the CR of the encounter as appropriate anyways.
vonklaude
07-30-07, 09:13 AM Alright, I've read through all the "fighter versus caster" threads and know well alot of the arguements in them but one thing keeps coming up as an arguement for casters being balanced: they have to conserve spells to make it through an adventure. This is something I agree with, a DM who carefully makes his adventures can manage casters easily enough as player characters. But I've had one flaw in this, casters as foes in my games tend to end up being alot tougher than they should be due to the fact they can blow through their spells quickly against the players with no repercusions to them (afterall, they're meant to survive the one encounter). Now would I be out of line in rating primary casting classes as a CR or two higher for the purposes of experience rewards and determining if the party can handle them?

A CR hike isn't really needed here. Something you should do with all foes is establish them in your world.

If any foe is expecting a fight in which they may die or lose wealth and freedom, they should be tooled up and ready to blow through their spells. A War-Mage on guard duty will have the nastiest spells and a definite clarity of purpose. Players encountering such a guard should learn to expect a high degree of combat-readiness.

On the other hand, many foes will be partially or completely unprepared. They might have a few spells useless to the situation, and others that might work or might be easy for the party to deal with. Court Magicians, for example, will typically have racked spells to detect lies or magical compulsion, to communicate with colleagues afar or in secrecy, to read or write for their King, maybe even to cheat at cards and look more handsome than they are. Players encountering an ill-prepared court magician will enjoy taking him with his socks down.

Do two pick-lists for your mages: ready and unready. Play it from there. And don't forget you don't have to run the NPC as optimally as possible. He can make mistakes, choose non-lethal castings, have bizarre preferences to turn things into frogs.

-vk
Escef
07-30-07, 10:51 AM A 5th lv wizard who wins initiative starts battle with a sudden empowered and sudden maximized fireball. He has done his job, regardless of whether you kill him or not.:D

For extra goodness, bump him to 6th and give him the fire based reserve feat. It ups his effective caster level for fire spells by 1. Combine this with Greater Spell Focus (Evocation) and a Fox's Cunning and even a Int 14 wizard (the arcane equivelant to the "chump fighter" NPC) can bust out a DC 17 Fireball that does 42 + (7d6)/2 damage. (Coincidentally, I call this build the "Assassin of Cheese".)
Gargs454
07-30-07, 12:22 PM On a side note, unless I'm missing something, a 5th level Wizzie wouldn't be able to cast Sudden Max'd and Sudden Empowered Fireballs, but that's just a minor issue.

As to the OP, yes, mages with a full load of spells can be a handful for the party, but it is also in my experience, unlikely that they'll actually go through their full repetoire of spells since they'll either be dead, of have killed the PC's before that happens.

However, as others have suggested, you can make them recurring by having them run away easily enough. Casters are generally going to be fairly intelligent opponents, and when they start to get low on hit points, they are going to run, particularly if the rest of the fight is not going well for them. Dimesion Door can provide a quick escape, and Invis/Greater Invis can also help them to retreat. Not all enemies need to fight to the death. You do need to be careful with this tactic as it can lead to frustration for your players, but if done right, it will make that final victory all the more satisfying.
Escef
07-30-07, 12:59 PM On a side note, unless I'm missing something, a 5th level Wizzie wouldn't be able to cast Sudden Max'd and Sudden Empowered Fireballs, but that's just a minor issue.

Why not? Sudden Maximize, Sudden Empower, and any one other metamagic feat (character levels 1 and 3 and the 5th level wizard bonus feat.)

Though I just realized my Assassin build is wrong, I'd have to drop greater spell focus or the reserve feat to make it work (I am assuming human for the bonus feat).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
myusernameis 07-29-07, 07:36 PM	Alright, I've read through all the "fighter versus caster" threads and know well alot of the arguements in them but one thing keeps coming up as an arguement for casters being balanced: they have to conserve spells to make it through an adventure. This is something I agree with, a DM who carefully makes his adventures can manage casters easily enough as player characters. But I've had one flaw in this, casters as foes in my games tend to end up being alot tougher than they should be due to the fact they can blow through their spells quickly against the players with no repercusions to them (afterall, they're meant to survive the one encounter). Now would I be out of line in rating primary casting classes as a CR or two higher for the purposes of experience rewards and determining if the party can handle them?
mortalgod666 07-29-07, 07:40 PM	Huh.their sapposed to last a single encounter?I always play out ( even my lesser) NPC casters as if PC( in that I meen I use only a couple spells,mainly before the stronger units charge in against the PCs) I also try to have them fall back and reinforce every chance( or most of the time)But really i would say maybe 1 cr higher.just my opinion.
Vrael 07-29-07, 07:40 PM	Well... maybe one higher. That spell level really makes a big difference, I wouldn't see it as being too out of line, depending on the caster.
Me, Myself, & 101 others 07-29-07, 07:44 PM	Possibly, but you only need to raise the CR if your party is having a tough time defeating them. If casters don't give them too much more in the way of a problem, then they're not any more of a challence (so no higher CR). If, though, they have real problems with casters I can see making their CR a level or maybe even two higher. Really, though, if the casters are an issue for them they need to work on their tactics. Otherwise, things'll never change because they'll get more xp, go up in ECL, which will increase the CR of the enemies... So, I'd encourage them to start thinking about finding tactical advantages against caster-types. Another thought would be to make it so that the casters aren't 'disposable.' Like, a couple casters show up with a few grunt-types. The grunts engage and the casters act as artillery. As the grunts fall, the casters retreat. Then they gather a few more minions and repeat. Do this a couple times and the enemy casters will indeed have to mind their spells. And, when the party finally kills the annoying retreating caster they'll get much more satisfaction out of it.
From_the_Far_Realm 07-29-07, 09:03 PM	Bear in mind the mental aspects of being a caster. Wizards are generally super intelligent, clerics and druids very insightful, bards and sorcorers very forceful of personality. Maybe they shouldn't be destined to die after a round or so of combat. Self-preservation is a strong motivator, and those with the means and foresight to ensure survival should certainly make this a priority. If this makes escape the norm, with repercussions/revenge, then so be it; just make them less frequent. Fighting one evil caster over the course of several levels or adventures makes them more memorable than a sucession of generic casters anyway.
BloodSpill 07-29-07, 09:14 PM	Make it that any spellcaster your party comes across has already blown half their spell slots that day unless they it is not a chance encounter. This suggestion was put forward in Complete Psionic, but it is just as valid for casters.
Sildatorak 07-29-07, 09:33 PM	Considering that classed NPC's are generally somewhat weak for their CR, I think that it is unnecessary that casters take a CR hike. They are harder to fight than melee foes in a single encounter, but that is more of a deficiency in fighter types compared to monsters than anything else.
Nephlite 07-29-07, 11:26 PM	Considering that classed NPC's are generally somewhat weak for their CR, I think that it is unnecessary that casters take a CR hike. They are harder to fight than melee foes in a single encounter, but that is more of a deficiency in fighter types compared to monsters than anything else. NPCs are only weaker in gear. Physical characters rely more on gear than casters.
Sildatorak 07-29-07, 11:35 PM	NPCs are only weaker in gear.I'm not talking about NPC's vs. PC's. I'm talking about NPC's vs. monsters. An ogre is more challenging than a level 3 fighter.
runestar 07-29-07, 11:37 PM	Huh.their sapposed to last a single encounter?I always play out ( even my lesser) NPC casters as if PC( in that I meen I use only a couple spells,mainly before the stronger units charge in against the PCs) Depends on how you rationalize it. Those spells he is saving for a possible future encounter will only be of use if he actually survives the current fight. Meaning that when push comes to shove, you should pretty much expect him to start busting out the big guns and go nova in a bid to survive. A 5th lv wizard who wins initiative starts battle with a sudden empowered and sudden maximized fireball. He has done his job, regardless of whether you kill him or not.:D A 9th lv wizard making tactical use of solid fog, evard's black tentacles, cloudkill and mass reduce person can be a real headache for the party to overcome.
Thinker89 07-30-07, 03:07 AM	I would almost never reduce the amount of spells going for a caster especially if they are like the BBEG. These guys are generally found sitting around in some dungeon or castle or somewhere else not really doing anything I doubt they would need to use any spells there. I mean should you put the fighter at 3/4 hit points because during the day he loses them in fighting. Well, no, unless he has actually been fighting during the day. So overall I would very rarely take away spells from my NPC casters. As for bumping up the CR on casters because they are more powerful than melee characters is possibly a good idea. Sorry, to lazy/tiried to explain any thoughts here, lol.
EchoXero 07-30-07, 03:43 AM	I can understand bumping the CR of a caster, but don't automatically do it. You should base the decision on how the combat goes. In a recent session, where I was playing as a PC, due to a horrible inititative, the enemy caster didn't last long enough to cast a single spell. I don't think that would warrent a CR Boost. Again, base the decision to boost CR on the outcome and events of the encounter.
Chie 07-30-07, 03:51 AM	I don't think a CR hike is really warranted.Remember if the caster is by himself then it's maybe 3-6 PC's against the one caster.And the PC's probably have their own caster or CoDzilla on their side (or more than one).While the PC caster isn't likely to be at full power the other PC's should more than compensate (or much more than compensate depending on the party composition).Of course tactics are also a factor in this,but even if the enemy wizard goes nova the other PC's should be able to hold their own unless they've been seriously weakened by the battles prior to the caster;in which case they should probably be running back to a rest point. And if the enemy mage isn't alone then that would raise the CR of the encounter as appropriate anyways.
vonklaude 07-30-07, 09:13 AM	Alright, I've read through all the "fighter versus caster" threads and know well alot of the arguements in them but one thing keeps coming up as an arguement for casters being balanced: they have to conserve spells to make it through an adventure. This is something I agree with, a DM who carefully makes his adventures can manage casters easily enough as player characters. But I've had one flaw in this, casters as foes in my games tend to end up being alot tougher than they should be due to the fact they can blow through their spells quickly against the players with no repercusions to them (afterall, they're meant to survive the one encounter). Now would I be out of line in rating primary casting classes as a CR or two higher for the purposes of experience rewards and determining if the party can handle them? A CR hike isn't really needed here. Something you should do with all foes is establish them in your world. If any foe is expecting a fight in which they may die or lose wealth and freedom, they should be tooled up and ready to blow through their spells. A War-Mage on guard duty will have the nastiest spells and a definite clarity of purpose. Players encountering such a guard should learn to expect a high degree of combat-readiness. On the other hand, many foes will be partially or completely unprepared. They might have a few spells useless to the situation, and others that might work or might be easy for the party to deal with. Court Magicians, for example, will typically have racked spells to detect lies or magical compulsion, to communicate with colleagues afar or in secrecy, to read or write for their King, maybe even to cheat at cards and look more handsome than they are. Players encountering an ill-prepared court magician will enjoy taking him with his socks down. Do two pick-lists for your mages: ready and unready. Play it from there. And don't forget you don't have to run the NPC as optimally as possible. He can make mistakes, choose non-lethal castings, have bizarre preferences to turn things into frogs. -vk
Escef 07-30-07, 10:51 AM	A 5th lv wizard who wins initiative starts battle with a sudden empowered and sudden maximized fireball. He has done his job, regardless of whether you kill him or not.:D For extra goodness, bump him to 6th and give him the fire based reserve feat. It ups his effective caster level for fire spells by 1. Combine this with Greater Spell Focus (Evocation) and a Fox's Cunning and even a Int 14 wizard (the arcane equivelant to the "chump fighter" NPC) can bust out a DC 17 Fireball that does 42 + (7d6)/2 damage. (Coincidentally, I call this build the "Assassin of Cheese".)
Gargs454 07-30-07, 12:22 PM	On a side note, unless I'm missing something, a 5th level Wizzie wouldn't be able to cast Sudden Max'd and Sudden Empowered Fireballs, but that's just a minor issue. As to the OP, yes, mages with a full load of spells can be a handful for the party, but it is also in my experience, unlikely that they'll actually go through their full repetoire of spells since they'll either be dead, of have killed the PC's before that happens. However, as others have suggested, you can make them recurring by having them run away easily enough. Casters are generally going to be fairly intelligent opponents, and when they start to get low on hit points, they are going to run, particularly if the rest of the fight is not going well for them. Dimesion Door can provide a quick escape, and Invis/Greater Invis can also help them to retreat. Not all enemies need to fight to the death. You do need to be careful with this tactic as it can lead to frustration for your players, but if done right, it will make that final victory all the more satisfying.
Escef 07-30-07, 12:59 PM	On a side note, unless I'm missing something, a 5th level Wizzie wouldn't be able to cast Sudden Max'd and Sudden Empowered Fireballs, but that's just a minor issue. Why not? Sudden Maximize, Sudden Empower, and any one other metamagic feat (character levels 1 and 3 and the 5th level wizard bonus feat.) Though I just realized my Assassin build is wrong, I'd have to drop greater spell focus or the reserve feat to make it work (I am assuming human for the bonus feat).