Casting a Spell out of a body of liquid. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Casting a Spell out of a body of liquid. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Yruc
04-26-04, 09:16 AM Howdy all, I have a question. If you are my players playing City of the Spider Queen in Olathe, don't read any more..

Okay I am currently running my players through the City of the Spider Queen module and its going pretty good. I desided to change one part and instead of the Roper in the temple room with a pool of acid, I turned it into a Young Adult Black Dragon lair.

In doing so, made the room much bigger and added an exit through the roof for the dragon.

The dragon will hear the PC's fighting some minons in the next room and will have time to prepare for them. I thought this might be cool, but not sure can be done.

Can a dragon or anyone for that matter while submerged in a pool of acid or water, (no dmg since immune) cast a spell out of the body of acid and on the edge of the shore?

What I am thinking is having the floors slope towards the large pool of acid, there are also 3 Oozes in the room, then as the characters walk in, have the dragon cast silent image of a woman, frozen in terror at the edge of the pool of acid surrounded by the 3 oozes, and a spot check to see a large creature swiming toward the woman (the dragon swimming in the acid) then next round cast ghost sound to make it appear the woman screamed, then next round as the players hopefully come charging up, cast grease on the ground where they are and if they fail reflex save fall into the pool of acid.. and next round have the dragon burst from the acid and breath weapon any left standing....

Is that too evil? should the characters be allowed any type of save to disbelive the illusion or ghost sound?

Thanks for any comments

Yruc
ksbsnowowl
04-26-04, 09:40 AM If I'm not mistaken, the surface of a body of liquid blocks line of effect as far as spells are concerned. You can be underwater and cast things that happen underwater, but you cannot cast underwater and have the effect take place above water.

But, if you're going to have the dragon visibly swimming toward the shore, I suppose you could just have his head above 'water' and it could work.

BTW: need an extra player for the summer? I'll be home from college in 3 weeks, and I need to try to find a gaming group in the KC area.
Yruc
04-26-04, 10:05 AM Thanks ksbsnowowl. I thought it might not be able to, but I might just have his head above the acid, though I did want it to be a surprise when he rises out of the pool and then uses his breath weapon on everyone.. Have to think about it hehe...

As to needing another player.. Currently have 4 PCs and I wouldn't mind another. Of course it would but up to everyone else not just me. This is my first time DMing if that doesn't scare ya then you can email me at fizzit77@hotmail.com for more details.
ksbsnowowl
04-26-04, 10:29 AM Yeah, I'll drop you an e-mail sometime this week. Oh, and I s'pose I should ask, do you play 3.0 or 3.5? I'm partial to 3.0 myself, but I wouldn't be adverse to trying a 3.5 game at least once.
exploding_brain
04-26-04, 11:47 AM If the dragon is using silent image and ghost sound together, it needs to cast ghost sound first. Ghost sound lasts for a few rounds, but silent image requires concentration to maintian the illusion. The guy in my group who plays the Gnome Sorcerer for figured that one out for me.
Yruc
04-26-04, 01:16 PM Okay thanks exploading_brain.

I think I'll have the dragon ready an action to cast ghost sound as the door opens in a surprise round, then cast silent image of a woman frozen with terror..

"As the door starts to swing open, you hear a blood curdling scream!"

Roll init. (hopefully dragon wins if not can make the image on his init, where it can't be seen from the door in case someone beats him)

As the door swings open you see a woman, seemingly frozen in terror, her back to the edge of a bubbling pool of acid, 3 oozes surround her.

spot check

You see what looks like the head of a black dragon (they fought one already so they would know what one is) swiming slowly towards the woman. What do you do?

So would the players be allowed to make any kind of save to disbelieve it? The spell says they would get a will save if they interact with the object. They really won't be interacting with it and by the time they are it will probably be to late.

Another question is, should there be any kind of spot/listen check to see/hear the dragon casting a spell.....either the silent image (if it looses init) or for grease?

Also what do you think of the tactic? Good? Bad? Ugly? TPK?
I really don't want to kill the players, I will if they are stupid, but I do want to challenge them. I could change it from an acid lake to a underground lake, giving them a few rounds to rescue someone that falls in. Cause if someone falls in 10d6 points of acid damage a round, no one will survive long enough to get rescued.

Thanks again

Yruc

PS its a 3.5 game ksbsnowowl
ksbsnowowl
04-26-04, 01:20 PM Hmmm...to gauge its difficulty, we really need to know what level the PC's are, and what their classes are.
Yruc
04-26-04, 01:29 PM er probably help hehe sorry.

I have a party that has 4 PC's and 1 NPC. They are all level 11.

Human Rog 3 / Wiz 5 / Aracane trickster 3
Human Cleric 11 (War and Glory domains)
Human Ranger 11 With a wolf as animial companion
NPC is a barbarian X/Rogue X/Fighter X (total CR 11 Think its Rogue 2/Fighter 3/ Barb 6)
and
Dwarf Ranger 11

Did only have 3 PC's when started the module so I allowed them to hire a NPC that they control as another party member. They chose the above combo. Last session a PC that had not been able to game with us for 2 months was finally able to make it back and said he should be able to continue making it. So they met fighting a raiding party and he joined them (the dwarf character)

Thanks again

edit: the dragon is a Young Adult Black Dragon and the 3 Oozes are Ochre Jellies..both the dragon and Ochre Jellies are straight out of the Monsters manual
Krelios
04-26-04, 01:46 PM If I'm not mistaken, the surface of a body of liquid blocks line of effect as far as spells are concerned. You can be underwater and cast things that happen underwater, but you cannot cast underwater and have the effect take place above water. There is no such rule in the SRD or the Core Rulebooks. Water has no effect on line of effect.
ksbsnowowl
04-26-04, 02:04 PM Originally posted by Krelios
There is no such rule in the SRD or the Core Rulebooks. Water has no effect on line of effect. Although I did slightly misremember the rule (it actually only applies to fire effects), the rule does exist. Here it is from the 3.5 SRD:Fire: Nonmagical fire (including alchemist’s fire) does not burn underwater. Spells or spell-like effects with the fire descriptor are ineffective underwater unless the caster makes a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level). If the check succeeds, the spell creates a bubble of steam instead of its usual fiery effect, but otherwise the spell works as described. A supernatural fire effect is ineffective underwater unless its description states otherwise. The surface of a body of water blocks line of effect for any fire spell. If the caster has made a Spellcraft check to make the fire spell usable underwater, the surface still blocks the spell’s line of effect.Emphasis mine

So, I suppose you can do it all with the dragon under the acid;)
Yruc
04-26-04, 02:19 PM Woohoo :D Though got to remember its not me verses them ;)
Hehe I know better than to make it like that :angel:

Thanks Krelios and ksbsnowowl! So what you guys think of the plan then?

I will do it with the dragon under the acid/water :)

"As the door starts to swing open, you hear a blood curdling scream!"

Roll init. (hopefully dragon wins if not can make the image on his init, where it can't be seen from the door in case someone beats him)

As the door swings open you see a woman, seemingly frozen in terror, her back to the edge of a bubbling pool of acid, 3 oozes surround her.

spot check

You see a large dark shap swiming slowly towards the woman. What do you do?

As you charge up to the woman, she suddenly dissappears (I guess the image will dissapear when the dragon casts grease) and a bunch of black slippery stuff forms on the floor of the cavern beneath your feet.

Reflex save....

Those who fail - fall and slide into the pool of acid/water. Maybe allow them another reflex save or strength check to prevent falling in by grabbing onto the edge of the acid/water

Those who make it... what do you do?

Next round, the large dark form bursts forth from the acid/water and unleashes his breath weapon on you.. muhahahah evil laugh.. (just kidding!!) er um yes make a reflex save to advoid a line of acid..

Thanks again everyone :)
exploding_brain
04-26-04, 02:20 PM Although depending on the clarity of the acid, it might block line of sight. Acids in fantasy are often an opaque yellow/green, but real life acids are often clear like water. I guess it's up to you, as the DM
Yruc
04-26-04, 02:24 PM it will be green, and clear enough for them to see a dark shape swimming in it but not clear like water.. I think the dragon would be able to see at least their general locations as they will be able to see his..
Krelios
04-26-04, 02:29 PM That's true, the translucency of a substence might grant the creatures concealment on the other side (20% miss chance). If it's opaque enough to grant total concealment, you can't target them at all. Still a nice tactic for something that doesn't require an attack roll--that way the Dragon can breath out with no penalty, but ranged attacks fired back into the water have the miss chance.
ksbsnowowl
04-26-04, 02:37 PM Your tactics look good; I think it will be a very interesting and challenging encounter.

The PC's should do alright, depending on their tactics. If they're smart they'll throw up some type of elemental protection spell before charging in; if they do that they should be fine. If not...well, dumb tactics deserve to get you killed.:smirk:

edit: btw - sent you an e-mail Yruc
Yruc
04-27-04, 05:20 AM What about the EL of the encounter?

I don't have my books infront of me (at work) but I believe the Young Adult Black Dragon is a CR9 encounter and the Ochre Jellies are CR7 each.

So would that make it around a EL11 ?

Thanks again, and anyone else have any coments?

Yruc
ksbsnowowl
04-27-04, 08:44 AM Well, by the 3.0 books the dragon is CR 8, and each jelly is CR 5. Looking at the encounter chart in the DMG, a mixed pair of CR's 8 + 6 is EL 9, and two CR 5's is an EL of 7. Taking those numbers and looking at a 9+7 mixed pair, we have an EL of 10.

Instead, look at it as three CR 5 creatures (EL 8) and one CR 8 creature (EL 8), and that 8+8 matched pair EL is 10.

So, it's not exact, but you have about an EL 10 encounter set up. Take into account the pool of acid that at least one PC is likely to fall into, and I'd say that hazard bumps the EL to about 11; pretty much right on target for the group.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Yruc 04-26-04, 09:16 AM	Howdy all, I have a question. If you are my players playing City of the Spider Queen in Olathe, don't read any more.. Okay I am currently running my players through the City of the Spider Queen module and its going pretty good. I desided to change one part and instead of the Roper in the temple room with a pool of acid, I turned it into a Young Adult Black Dragon lair. In doing so, made the room much bigger and added an exit through the roof for the dragon. The dragon will hear the PC's fighting some minons in the next room and will have time to prepare for them. I thought this might be cool, but not sure can be done. Can a dragon or anyone for that matter while submerged in a pool of acid or water, (no dmg since immune) cast a spell out of the body of acid and on the edge of the shore? What I am thinking is having the floors slope towards the large pool of acid, there are also 3 Oozes in the room, then as the characters walk in, have the dragon cast silent image of a woman, frozen in terror at the edge of the pool of acid surrounded by the 3 oozes, and a spot check to see a large creature swiming toward the woman (the dragon swimming in the acid) then next round cast ghost sound to make it appear the woman screamed, then next round as the players hopefully come charging up, cast grease on the ground where they are and if they fail reflex save fall into the pool of acid.. and next round have the dragon burst from the acid and breath weapon any left standing.... Is that too evil? should the characters be allowed any type of save to disbelive the illusion or ghost sound? Thanks for any comments Yruc
ksbsnowowl 04-26-04, 09:40 AM	If I'm not mistaken, the surface of a body of liquid blocks line of effect as far as spells are concerned. You can be underwater and cast things that happen underwater, but you cannot cast underwater and have the effect take place above water. But, if you're going to have the dragon visibly swimming toward the shore, I suppose you could just have his head above 'water' and it could work. BTW: need an extra player for the summer? I'll be home from college in 3 weeks, and I need to try to find a gaming group in the KC area.
Yruc 04-26-04, 10:05 AM	Thanks ksbsnowowl. I thought it might not be able to, but I might just have his head above the acid, though I did want it to be a surprise when he rises out of the pool and then uses his breath weapon on everyone.. Have to think about it hehe... As to needing another player.. Currently have 4 PCs and I wouldn't mind another. Of course it would but up to everyone else not just me. This is my first time DMing if that doesn't scare ya then you can email me at fizzit77@hotmail.com for more details.
ksbsnowowl 04-26-04, 10:29 AM	Yeah, I'll drop you an e-mail sometime this week. Oh, and I s'pose I should ask, do you play 3.0 or 3.5? I'm partial to 3.0 myself, but I wouldn't be adverse to trying a 3.5 game at least once.
exploding_brain 04-26-04, 11:47 AM	If the dragon is using silent image and ghost sound together, it needs to cast ghost sound first. Ghost sound lasts for a few rounds, but silent image requires concentration to maintian the illusion. The guy in my group who plays the Gnome Sorcerer for figured that one out for me.
Yruc 04-26-04, 01:16 PM	Okay thanks exploading_brain. I think I'll have the dragon ready an action to cast ghost sound as the door opens in a surprise round, then cast silent image of a woman frozen with terror.. "As the door starts to swing open, you hear a blood curdling scream!" Roll init. (hopefully dragon wins if not can make the image on his init, where it can't be seen from the door in case someone beats him) As the door swings open you see a woman, seemingly frozen in terror, her back to the edge of a bubbling pool of acid, 3 oozes surround her. spot check You see what looks like the head of a black dragon (they fought one already so they would know what one is) swiming slowly towards the woman. What do you do? So would the players be allowed to make any kind of save to disbelieve it? The spell says they would get a will save if they interact with the object. They really won't be interacting with it and by the time they are it will probably be to late. Another question is, should there be any kind of spot/listen check to see/hear the dragon casting a spell.....either the silent image (if it looses init) or for grease? Also what do you think of the tactic? Good? Bad? Ugly? TPK? I really don't want to kill the players, I will if they are stupid, but I do want to challenge them. I could change it from an acid lake to a underground lake, giving them a few rounds to rescue someone that falls in. Cause if someone falls in 10d6 points of acid damage a round, no one will survive long enough to get rescued. Thanks again Yruc PS its a 3.5 game ksbsnowowl
ksbsnowowl 04-26-04, 01:20 PM	Hmmm...to gauge its difficulty, we really need to know what level the PC's are, and what their classes are.
Yruc 04-26-04, 01:29 PM	er probably help hehe sorry. I have a party that has 4 PC's and 1 NPC. They are all level 11. Human Rog 3 / Wiz 5 / Aracane trickster 3 Human Cleric 11 (War and Glory domains) Human Ranger 11 With a wolf as animial companion NPC is a barbarian X/Rogue X/Fighter X (total CR 11 Think its Rogue 2/Fighter 3/ Barb 6) and Dwarf Ranger 11 Did only have 3 PC's when started the module so I allowed them to hire a NPC that they control as another party member. They chose the above combo. Last session a PC that had not been able to game with us for 2 months was finally able to make it back and said he should be able to continue making it. So they met fighting a raiding party and he joined them (the dwarf character) Thanks again edit: the dragon is a Young Adult Black Dragon and the 3 Oozes are Ochre Jellies..both the dragon and Ochre Jellies are straight out of the Monsters manual
Krelios 04-26-04, 01:46 PM	If I'm not mistaken, the surface of a body of liquid blocks line of effect as far as spells are concerned. You can be underwater and cast things that happen underwater, but you cannot cast underwater and have the effect take place above water. There is no such rule in the SRD or the Core Rulebooks. Water has no effect on line of effect.
ksbsnowowl 04-26-04, 02:04 PM	Originally posted by Krelios There is no such rule in the SRD or the Core Rulebooks. Water has no effect on line of effect. Although I did slightly misremember the rule (it actually only applies to fire effects), the rule does exist. Here it is from the 3.5 SRD:Fire: Nonmagical fire (including alchemist’s fire) does not burn underwater. Spells or spell-like effects with the fire descriptor are ineffective underwater unless the caster makes a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level). If the check succeeds, the spell creates a bubble of steam instead of its usual fiery effect, but otherwise the spell works as described. A supernatural fire effect is ineffective underwater unless its description states otherwise. The surface of a body of water blocks line of effect for any fire spell. If the caster has made a Spellcraft check to make the fire spell usable underwater, the surface still blocks the spell’s line of effect.Emphasis mine So, I suppose you can do it all with the dragon under the acid;)
Yruc 04-26-04, 02:19 PM	Woohoo :D Though got to remember its not me verses them ;) Hehe I know better than to make it like that :angel: Thanks Krelios and ksbsnowowl! So what you guys think of the plan then? I will do it with the dragon under the acid/water :) "As the door starts to swing open, you hear a blood curdling scream!" Roll init. (hopefully dragon wins if not can make the image on his init, where it can't be seen from the door in case someone beats him) As the door swings open you see a woman, seemingly frozen in terror, her back to the edge of a bubbling pool of acid, 3 oozes surround her. spot check You see a large dark shap swiming slowly towards the woman. What do you do? As you charge up to the woman, she suddenly dissappears (I guess the image will dissapear when the dragon casts grease) and a bunch of black slippery stuff forms on the floor of the cavern beneath your feet. Reflex save.... Those who fail - fall and slide into the pool of acid/water. Maybe allow them another reflex save or strength check to prevent falling in by grabbing onto the edge of the acid/water Those who make it... what do you do? Next round, the large dark form bursts forth from the acid/water and unleashes his breath weapon on you.. muhahahah evil laugh.. (just kidding!!) er um yes make a reflex save to advoid a line of acid.. Thanks again everyone :)
exploding_brain 04-26-04, 02:20 PM	Although depending on the clarity of the acid, it might block line of sight. Acids in fantasy are often an opaque yellow/green, but real life acids are often clear like water. I guess it's up to you, as the DM
Yruc 04-26-04, 02:24 PM	it will be green, and clear enough for them to see a dark shape swimming in it but not clear like water.. I think the dragon would be able to see at least their general locations as they will be able to see his..
Krelios 04-26-04, 02:29 PM	That's true, the translucency of a substence might grant the creatures concealment on the other side (20% miss chance). If it's opaque enough to grant total concealment, you can't target them at all. Still a nice tactic for something that doesn't require an attack roll--that way the Dragon can breath out with no penalty, but ranged attacks fired back into the water have the miss chance.
ksbsnowowl 04-26-04, 02:37 PM	Your tactics look good; I think it will be a very interesting and challenging encounter. The PC's should do alright, depending on their tactics. If they're smart they'll throw up some type of elemental protection spell before charging in; if they do that they should be fine. If not...well, dumb tactics deserve to get you killed.:smirk: edit: btw - sent you an e-mail Yruc
Yruc 04-27-04, 05:20 AM	What about the EL of the encounter? I don't have my books infront of me (at work) but I believe the Young Adult Black Dragon is a CR9 encounter and the Ochre Jellies are CR7 each. So would that make it around a EL11 ? Thanks again, and anyone else have any coments? Yruc
ksbsnowowl 04-27-04, 08:44 AM	Well, by the 3.0 books the dragon is CR 8, and each jelly is CR 5. Looking at the encounter chart in the DMG, a mixed pair of CR's 8 + 6 is EL 9, and two CR 5's is an EL of 7. Taking those numbers and looking at a 9+7 mixed pair, we have an EL of 10. Instead, look at it as three CR 5 creatures (EL 8) and one CR 8 creature (EL 8), and that 8+8 matched pair EL is 10. So, it's not exact, but you have about an EL 10 encounter set up. Take into account the pool of acid that at least one PC is likely to fall into, and I'd say that hazard bumps the EL to about 11; pretty much right on target for the group.