Post/Author/DateTime	Post
zioth 08-11-06, 12:03 PM	One of the characters in my game wants to lie down on the floor, look under a door at someone's feet, and cast Silent Charm Person on him. What do all you DMs think about this? You only need line of sight to cast Charm Person, so it should technically work, but does it make sense?
Archmage Atrus 08-11-06, 12:05 PM	It should work. She can see her target and tell where she is. I don't necessarily know if I'd allow a silenced Charm Person, though. Something just doesn't... feel... right... about that. (Unless the user has telepathy, or some other non-verbal mode of communication.)
Radijs 08-11-06, 12:07 PM	No problem with it. Line of sight + line of effect have been established. If the person behind the door fails his will save he/she will regard the caster as his friend.
bitnine 08-11-06, 12:18 PM	Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight. You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast. A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst’s center point, a cone-shaped burst’s starting point, a cylinder’s circle, or an emanation’s point of origin). An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell’s line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell’s line of effect.As a general note on line of effect for spells, there is indeed a minimum size that an opening needs to be in order to cast through.
zioth 08-11-06, 12:25 PM	Interesting... Why would that affect Charm Person though? I could see it affecting area spells (line, cone, burst), or even ray spells, where magical energy has to move from one place to another, but with enchantments, you'd think you could cast them through a keyhole or something, as long as you could see the person you're enchanting. My main concern is that the feet wouldn't be enough. How do you charm someone if you can't see his face? What do other people think about this "line of effect" thing?
Archmage Atrus 08-11-06, 12:29 PM	My problem isn't with the line of effect thing. It's with this part of the Charm spell description: You must speak the person’s language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming. I suppose you can charm them silenced, but then you'd kinda have to give yourself away to give out any commands.
Arganis 08-11-06, 12:30 PM	Interesting... Why would that affect Charm Person though? ... My main concern is that the feet wouldn't be enough. How do you charm someone if you can't see his face? There is no requirement that you target a creature's face, only that you can target the creature. As long as there is "a hole of at least 1 square foot" through an interposing barrier, you have line of effect (which is identical to line of sight except that it is not negated by concealment) and can target the creature.
zioth 08-11-06, 12:35 PM	"Line of sight" implies that you only have to see the target, and "line of effect" requires a 1ft square. What makes Charm Person a line of effect spell instead of line of sight? Or am I misunderstanding this?
Arganis 08-11-06, 12:40 PM	"Line of sight" implies that you only have to see the target, and "line of effect" requires a 1ft square. What makes Charm Person a line of effect spell instead of line of sight? Or am I misunderstanding this? They're fairly interchangeable except for Concealment... Target: One humanoid creature Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight. You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect.
Archmage Atrus 08-11-06, 01:05 PM	All spells require both Line of Sight and Line of Effect. They're not one or the other. Edit: I should clarify. All spells that require Line of Sight, require Line of Effect. All spells that require Line of Effect, require Line of Sight. (At least, to my knowledge. If someone knows differently, feel free to point it out.)
bitnine 08-11-06, 01:22 PM	You know, this rule does in fact ruin my dream of having a wizard (with a magic item for breathing) travelling around in a floating adamantine cube casting spells out through a tiny pinhole. Now I'm sad.
CPAtheFat 08-11-06, 01:29 PM	10' wide corridor takes a 90 degree turn to the left. Around the corner, 10 feet from it, is an orc. The orc is the target. Wizard can't see the orc (but knows he's there), so no line of sight. Tosses a fireball into the corner, which toasts the orc - line of effect? Even better, it's a straight hallway. In between the orc and the wizard is a solid wall with a one foot square hole in it. Orc is leaning up against the wall, so Wiz can't see him. He can still kill the orc by tossing a fireball through the hole. As to the charm person, I'd say it could work, but making it a Silent Spell seems pointless. Sure the target is charmed to like you more, but they won't do anything unless you speak to them. Cast the spell as normal, then ask them to open the door, THEN toss in the fireball. :D
lears_fool 08-11-06, 01:30 PM	It should work fine. You need to see the target to trigger the effect. Feet are indeed part of a target. By the rules, charm doesn't work differently than a fireball. You don't need to target any part of the creature or even make the creature aware of your presence when casting the spell. The reference in the other bit. . You must speak the person’s language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming. That's for the part of the spell that happens AFTER the whole casting/saving cycle. You need to communicate to have them react as you wish once they're charmed. . but you don't worry about that until after the spell is cast.
Archmage Atrus 08-11-06, 02:58 PM	10' wide corridor takes a 90 degree turn to the left. Around the corner, 10 feet from it, is an orc. The orc is the target. Wizard can't see the orc (but knows he's there), so no line of sight. Tosses a fireball into the corner, which toasts the orc - line of effect? Even better, it's a straight hallway. In between the orc and the wizard is a solid wall with a one foot square hole in it. Orc is leaning up against the wall, so Wiz can't see him. He can still kill the orc by tossing a fireball through the hole. Fireball doesn't target the orc, ergo he doesn't need Line of sight/effect to the orc. He does need line of sight/line of effect to the point in space where he triggers the spell. That the spell has the ability to bend around corners slightly is not a funtion of LoE/LoS.