Post/Author/DateTime	Post
malbur 12-09-07, 05:54 AM	hey everyone... what is the story with this. Is it possible to cast spells from a wand or a scroll into a spell storing weapon? I have an artificer/duskblade in the party who feels he is so brilliant that he can do this but for some reason i think that this is a bit ridiculous. Anyways basically I'm looking for a passage from a book perhaps that says definitively because after an argument he claims the only thing that gives me an advantage is that I can just rule it out. Honestly he's ******* me off and I want him limited. however, I want to beat him at his own game (as i've done twice already... he still claims he can "outsmart" me). Any advice on the matter?
Grumman 12-09-07, 06:30 AM	I'd agree with the player. What makes you feel this is more ridiculous than casting a spell from memory into the weapon?
kuonji 12-09-07, 06:49 AM	Well the scroll description says: A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. So I see no reason you couldn't use a scroll to fill a spell storing weapon. Spell storing requires a spell to be 3rd level or lower, a targeted spell, and have a casting time of 1 standard action. A wand uses the spell trigger method of casting the spell (command words vs. actual casting), however, if the spell in the wand meets the requirements for spell storing, I see no reason why using the wand to fill a spell storing weapon shouldn't work.
Gurv 12-09-07, 07:40 AM	Honestly he's ******* me off and I want him limited. however, I want to beat him at his own game (as i've done twice already... he still claims he can "outsmart" me). Any advice on the matter? He is right. You are wrong. Don't sit around trying one-up each other. You'll just **** each other off. His idea is legal. Are you trying to limit him because this is disruptive to the game? I don't see how. Or are you trying to limit him because he thought of something you didn't and he caught you with your pants down?
Rood_Inverse 12-09-07, 08:43 AM	I only have the SRD handy, and an article by Skip Williams on the Duskblade class... So this might already have been answered. First, a spellstoring weapon gets a spell cast on it. It hangs onto that spell until you hit something with it and choose to discharge the spell. Free action to do so. Second, the arcane channeling power of a Duskblade lets him deliver a spell through his weapon, but not as part of an attack, since the spell is a touch-range (ie, his casting counts as his attack roll, if I read the article right?). Standard action to do, until 13th when he can do it as part of a full-attack action. I have to guess that he wants to cast a spell as a free action as well as attack and use his duskblade power all at once? Two spells and a sword strike? Wouldn't that be two standard actions? An attack, plus the stanard action to use his arcane channeling? That being said... He can cast spells into his spellstoring sword, but he can't unleash all three (spell+attack, arcane channeling) in one combat round. He gets to fill his sword with whatever wand he has, but he can't use it (that way) in the same round as arcane channeling. That's what I expect he was trying to do. Something about that doesn't sit right with me. But nothing wrong with putting spells into a spellstoring sword with a wand. It's like... loading bullets into a gun, I'd imagine. Please, correct me if I'm wrong. Especially since I don't have the rulebooks on hand for this.
Grumman 12-09-07, 10:30 AM	I have to guess that he wants to cast a spell as a free action as well as attack and use his duskblade power all at once? Two spells and a sword strike? Wouldn't that be two standard actions? An attack, plus the stanard action to use his arcane channeling? A Spellstoring weapon doesn't require an attack action, only that the weapon strikes and deals damage. So striking and dealing damage with the weapon as part of the arcane channeling ability would qualify.
kelvinaw273 12-09-07, 10:40 AM	Scrolls yes, Wand no, is how I call it. A wand uses a trigger to release a spell effect, it is not casting a spell but unleashing it's effect without any control other than where the wand is pointing. But a Scroll is the same as casting the spell yourself, so yes you could go from a scroll into a spell-storing weapon. So you are both half-right and half-wrong.
Rood_Inverse 12-09-07, 10:41 AM	But attacking with a spellstoring weapon is a standard action, normally. You get the spell and weapon damage. The channeling ability lets you cast a spell, as a standard action, through your weapon. Like I said, I don't have the rulebooks in front of me... But it sounds an awful lot like a two-for-one, which I'm always dubious about. =\
Grumman 12-09-07, 11:03 AM	But attacking with a spellstoring weapon is a standard action, normally. You get the spell and weapon damage. Wrong. It is a free action that you can only use if the weapon strikes a creature and deals damage. The channeling ability lets you cast a spell, as a standard action, through your weapon. Wrong. Arcane channeling allows you to deliver a spell as part of a melee attack. When you make an attack - either a single attack or a full attack - you may trigger the arcane channeling ability during any of your melee strikes, and you may use a free action to trigger the spellstoring ability during any of those strikes.
Rood_Inverse 12-09-07, 11:09 AM	That's pretty savage. But thanks for the clarification.
Some Like It Hot 12-09-07, 12:04 PM	Scrolls are a definitive yes for the reasons cited above: Casting from a scroll is exactly like casting from your prepared spells/spell slots. Wands are less definitive, but I would still probably allow it. The description of the Spellstoring weapon says that a spellcaster must cast the spell into the weapon. It could be argued that casting from a wand is not the same as casting from your prepared spells/scrolls, but I feel that's a relatively arbitrary distinction. In my opinion, if you're a spellcaster and the spell effect in question fits the Spellstoring requirements (3rd level, targeted, etc) then the spell can be cast into the weapon simply by selecting the weapon as the target of the spell. I think that's the most straightfoward and text supported line of application. In answer to your question, there is no definitive passage that disallows his tactic. Kudos to the player for the idea, though. Good way to abuse something with a hit-and-run style tactic.
kelvinaw273 12-09-07, 01:28 PM	In answer to your question, there is no definitive passage that disallows his tactic. Kudos to the player for the idea, though. Good way to abuse something with a hit-and-run style tactic. Personally I wouldn't give kudos to somebody for abusing the system. I would say "No!" sharply and rap them on the nose with a rolled up copy of Dragon magazine ... ;)
VulcanStormwrath 12-09-07, 01:47 PM	Personally I wouldn't give kudos to somebody for abusing the system. I would say "No!" sharply and rap them on the nose with a rolled up copy of Dragon magazine ... ;) It's sad when creativity is punished as abuse. I guess that's why everything will be dumbed down next edition. So there is no room for creativity, and those who would strangle it are happy. Sigh
Pezz 12-09-07, 01:51 PM	Why would you punish your player for being creative? it's nothing exactly game-breaking (though it IS strong).
Space_Dragon 12-09-07, 01:51 PM	Agree with the above. The player is perfectly within his rights.
Sinis 12-09-07, 02:05 PM	... so he can use a spell completion or spell trigger item to store spells in a spell-storing weapon. Big deal. Firstly, I don't see what's so clever about it (it's like you're burning scrolls and wand charges, that is, money, for very little benefit). Why not just use your regular spells, like a person who doesn't have money to burn? Secondly, so what? So he pre-emptively has some extra oomph in his first weapon swing. And that "oomph" is a third level spell or lower of a single target and standard action cast time. That narrows it down *a lot* to what's useful. Frankly, just let him have his "victory", where he has "outsmarted" you, because I just don't see what's so spectacular about using a spell-storing weapon and being a duskblade. I mean, seriously, he could have just been a wizard and cast spells like a normal person, and he'd probably be better off than his jank multiclass.
malbur 12-09-07, 02:56 PM	... so he can use a spell completion or spell trigger item to store spells in a spell-storing weapon. Big deal. Firstly, I don't see what's so clever about it (it's like you're burning scrolls and wand charges, that is, money, for very little benefit). Why not just use your regular spells, like a person who doesn't have money to burn? Secondly, so what? So he pre-emptively has some extra oomph in his first weapon swing. And that "oomph" is a third level spell or lower of a single target and standard action cast time. That narrows it down *a lot* to what's useful. Frankly, just let him have his "victory", where he has "outsmarted" you, because I just don't see what's so spectacular about using a spell-storing weapon and being a duskblade. I mean, seriously, he could have just been a wizard and cast spells like a normal person, and he'd probably be better off than his jank multiclass. The reason I don't like giving him this victory is because he has never rolled anything but a duskblade in 3 concurrent campaigns and last night he killed a boss singlehandedly with spellstoring/arcanechannelling with only his main hand...when you can solo material (especially boss fights with next to no cost to yourself IE putting spells into weapons from wands which artificers can recharge) it just seems like it's completely overpowered... Don't forget with these spells in his weapons he can deal over 60 damage easily and everyone else can only do basic weapon damage due to no enchants/ weapons upgrades etc. Maybe you're right about how he should be allowed to do this but he's ****** off every DM that he's played under and a fair amount of players in the campaigns... I don't want to make him reroll arbitrarily but seriously if you can solo a boss... put spells into weapons from wands, recharge the wands and then continue as if nothing happened AT LEVEL THREE... I hope you get my point
VulcanStormwrath 12-09-07, 03:19 PM	AMF, Dispel Magic, Rust Monster, Sundering Monk, Disarming Specialist THE LIST GOES ON. Any halfway creative DM can negate a character who puts too much stock in his weapon. A hig AC still negates the attack, A shattered spell storing weapon cost more to replace and dispel gets rid of the spell on the sword. Even worse Slashing Dispel will tear him apart. Be glad he didn't take a few monk levels.
Some Like It Hot 12-09-07, 04:33 PM	True that. Perhaps the problem lies with the rest of the party or with the encounter style. One thing I think escapes some DM's is this: Anything a player can do, you can do a lot. Players are bound by resources and time; the DM controls resources and time. And right now he's not doing it for free. Craft wand requires caster level 5. Artificer gets it at 7. If he's level 3, he's got to buy any wand that he's using. Since the wealth by level in the DMG is 2700 gp, that limits his options. Also, how's he swinging a weapon that is, at least, +2? That's 8000 gp. If he's that far above the wealth for his level, then expect to have a level appropriate encounter blown to pieces, especially if he's got any sort of creativity. If he's somehow connived his way into getting that amount of loot without you noticing, consider yourself outsmarted.
malbur 12-09-07, 05:16 PM	AMF, Dispel Magic, Rust Monster, Sundering Monk, Disarming Specialist THE LIST GOES ON. Any halfway creative DM can negate a character who puts too much stock in his weapon. A hig AC still negates the attack, A shattered spell storing weapon cost more to replace and dispel gets rid of the spell on the sword. Even worse Slashing Dispel will tear him apart. Be glad he didn't take a few monk levels. You forget that a 1st level artificer gets the "personal weapon augmentation" thing which allows you to pick any +1 modifier to add to the weapon... And spell storing is a +1 modifier... so he can do it to any weapon he has... True that. Perhaps the problem lies with the rest of the party or with the encounter style. One thing I think escapes some DM's is this: Anything a player can do, you can do a lot. Players are bound by resources and time; the DM controls resources and time. And right now he's not doing it for free. Craft wand requires caster level 5. Artificer gets it at 7. If he's level 3, he's got to buy any wand that he's using. Since the wealth by level in the DMG is 2700 gp, that limits his options. Also, how's he swinging a weapon that is, at least, +2? That's 8000 gp. If he's that far above the wealth for his level, then expect to have a level appropriate encounter blown to pieces, especially if he's got any sort of creativity. If he's somehow connived his way into getting that amount of loot without you noticing, consider yourself outsmarted. Uh... how is it a +2 modifier? he's got a main hand and an offhand each effectively a +1 market modifier because of that infusion... also because he's got levels in duskblade he gets their benefits... I made a mistake from the beginning because I let him make this which i shouldn't have done (it was my first time being a DM and I was worried people wouldn't like the campaign when they could choose characters and there had been major Behind the Scenes nerfing of his other characters that I was unaware of)... Now I'm not sure how to fix it...
VulcanStormwrath 12-09-07, 06:28 PM	You forget that a 1st level artificer gets the "personal weapon augmentation" thing which allows you to pick any +1 modifier to add to the weapon... And spell storing is a +1 modifier... so he can do it to any weapon he has... Uh... how is it a +2 modifier? he's got a main hand and an offhand each effectively a +1 market modifier because of that infusion... also because he's got levels in duskblade he gets their benefits... I made a mistake from the beginning because I let him make this which i shouldn't have done (it was my first time being a DM and I was worried people wouldn't like the campaign when they could choose characters and there had been major Behind the Scenes nerfing of his other characters that I was unaware of)... Now I'm not sure how to fix it... Cut off his hands.
malbur 12-09-07, 09:26 PM	Cut off his hands. Hmm... maybe you have a point... whats the penalty i take for that on my attack rolls?
Pezz 12-10-07, 01:09 AM	A few questions. You say he is a third level character? 1) What spell is he using that can: a) do over 20 damage a hit (i dont have the book that the duskblade is in, but i assume the arcane channel does not do more damage than the spell he is using, from what has been said so far). I also assume that this spell is a first level because he has multiclassed artificer and duskblade, and those two do not stack their spell progression, do they? b) can easily be used more than 2 times per day, while at either level 1 or 2. At level 2 a wizard can only prep 2 level 1 spells, and unless the duskblade has a better spell progression than the wizard, he should not be able to cast that spell more than 2 times a day. Artificers don't get any direct damage spells that affect anything other than constructs, so it must be a duskblade spell. 2) How is he able to do this so often that it becomes a nuisance? he has to make a standard action to use the wand to store the effect in his sword, which means that with no limits on how many times per day he can use his arcane channel, he could only do that kind of attack once every two rounds. also, using a wand is a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity, which limits his ability to repeat it in combat. 3)his augmentation takes 1 minute to activate (10 rounds), and will only last for half an hour. at level 2 (maximum level if he multiclassed) means he could do that 3 times per day, maximum. Are you keeping track of the time passed from when he activates it and when he uses the ability? are you keeping track of how long it takes him to activate it? 4) re-reading your new posts, you say that he's got, effectively, a main hand and an off hand. is he using a double weapon like a staff? or dual wielding? if its a two headed weapon, the infusion only affects one head, just like an enchantment. if he's dual wielding, well, he can only use this infusion 3 times per day and it takes 1 minute each time he uses it.
kelvinaw273 12-10-07, 08:22 AM	It's sad when creativity is punished as abuse. I guess that's why everything will be dumbed down next edition. So there is no room for creativity, and those who would strangle it are happy. Sigh Putting Cure Moderate Wounds into a spell-storing weapon instead of a damaging spell is creative, if you are about to fight undead. There are a lot of things that are creative, and imaginative. But if you have to rules-lawyer to be 'creative' you've already strangled your own imagination. I think scrolls are a great idea. I think using wands though, isn't. To me, a wand is something that isn't cast, it goes off. It would be like trying to load a magazine for one gun by shooting another gun into it - not very clever, not very productive. But I can't find the rule in the d20 modern that says I can't do it, so I can, right? Common sense ... dontcha just love the rarity of it? The RAW says that the spell has to be CAST into the weapon. You can cast a spell from a scroll, but you don't use a wand to cast a spell, you use it to set off a spell effect. Hence my opinion. The reason I don't like giving him this victory is because he has never rolled anything but a duskblade in 3 concurrent campaigns and last night he killed a boss singlehandedly with spellstoring/arcanechannelling with only his main hand...when you can solo material (especially boss fights with next to no cost to yourself IE putting spells into weapons from wands which artificers can recharge) it just seems like it's completely overpowered... Don't forget with these spells in his weapons he can deal over 60 damage easily and everyone else can only do basic weapon damage due to no enchants/ weapons upgrades etc. Maybe you're right about how he should be allowed to do this but he's ****** off every DM that he's played under and a fair amount of players in the campaigns... I don't want to make him reroll arbitrarily but seriously if you can solo a boss... put spells into weapons from wands, recharge the wands and then continue as if nothing happened AT LEVEL THREE... I hope you get my point And THAT is why I 'punish creativity' when I feel it is rules abuse. This guy is either very good at optimising, or else he is cheating and abusing the rules outrageously on the 'it doesn't say I can't, so I can' basis. Mind you, the DM should not have let him have a spell-storing weapon in the first place - that's overpowered at level 3. On the plus side, it looks like he is optimising for one-hit melee damage. Pick him off at a distance.
Kerin 12-10-07, 09:05 AM	The reason I don't like giving him this victory is because he has never rolled anything but a duskblade in 3 concurrent campaigns and last night he killed a boss singlehandedly with spellstoring/arcanechannelling with only his main hand...when you can solo material (especially boss fights with next to no cost to yourself IE putting spells into weapons from wands which artificers can recharge) it just seems like it's completely overpowered... Don't forget with these spells in his weapons he can deal over 60 damage easily and everyone else can only do basic weapon damage due to no enchants/ weapons upgrades etc. Maybe you're right about how he should be allowed to do this but he's ****** off every DM that he's played under and a fair amount of players in the campaigns... I don't want to make him reroll arbitrarily but seriously if you can solo a boss... put spells into weapons from wands, recharge the wands and then continue as if nothing happened AT LEVEL THREE... I hope you get my point You're just a bad DM.
Nephlite 12-10-07, 09:54 AM	The reason I don't like giving him this victory is because he has never rolled anything but a duskblade in 3 concurrent campaigns and last night he killed a boss singlehandedly with spellstoring/arcanechannelling with only his main hand...when you can solo material (especially boss fights with next to no cost to yourself IE putting spells into weapons from wands which artificers can recharge) it just seems like it's completely overpowered... Don't forget with these spells in his weapons he can deal over 60 damage easily and everyone else can only do basic weapon damage due to no enchants/ weapons upgrades etc. Maybe you're right about how he should be allowed to do this but he's ****** off every DM that he's played under and a fair amount of players in the campaigns... I don't want to make him reroll arbitrarily but seriously if you can solo a boss... put spells into weapons from wands, recharge the wands and then continue as if nothing happened AT LEVEL THREE... I hope you get my point Duskblades = damage from spells/buffs. That is their Niche. They may not be a battlefield controller like a Fighter can be made decently into, but damage they can do. Give us a situation: what boss fight? You need to painthte picture or it looks like you are just being mean. Be more descriptive. Why was Boss so important that he can't kill it right away? Was it 4 levels higher? What made it the boss?
Muspelheim 12-10-07, 12:06 PM	I really fail to see how this is a problem. He pretty much uses all the resources of his character to be able to go nova a couple of times plus he expends quite a bit of money for a third level character if he wants to keep it up for every encounter, especially if he is going to be using wands to store the spells all the time. Also, I fail to see how he can do 60 dmg outside of crits (and perhaps even with a crit) with a single handed weapon unless you are messing up the caster levels on the wands/scrolls. Further, his attack bonus cannot be all that good since he is dual-wielding, have a level of artificer and must have spread his stats out a fair bit to achieve this. A raging, leap- and power attacking barbarian with a two-handed weapon would probably do a comparable amount of dmg as a duskblade using this trick. Due to the low caster level scorching ray is probably the best bet to use for spellstoring, resulting in 4d6 plus 2d6 from shocking grasp plus dmg from the weapon itself , which is significantly short of 60 dmg, even with a crit- sure, it is still a fair bit of damage at lvl 3, but it is pretty much limited to a couple of times a day, and he is bound to want to use spells for something else, misjudge who he should use it for maximum effect etc. In addition to that, his infusions last only 10 minutes pr artificer lvl, so in a lot of cases he won't be able to use this trick and if he tries to have it up all the time, he will waste a lot of his resources. Because of the substantial time it takes to infuse, often he should not be able to pre-buff with it. At low levels, he can only really make use of this trick in situations where the PCs have total initiative, meaning that they have set an ambush, do a pin-point strike against a target or something like that. And those cases, the PCs are often likely to steamroll the opposition anyhow. Without the OP breaking down the exact numbers, it's hard to tell whether something is being done wrong in achieving said 60 dmg though, or, if it really is 60 how it is done.
Sinis 12-10-07, 12:38 PM	The reason I don't like giving him this victory is because he has never rolled anything but a duskblade in 3 concurrent campaigns and last night he killed a boss singlehandedly with spellstoring/arcanechannelling with only his main hand...when you can solo material (especially boss fights with next to no cost to yourself IE putting spells into weapons from wands which artificers can recharge) it just seems like it's completely overpowered... Don't forget with these spells in his weapons he can deal over 60 damage easily and everyone else can only do basic weapon damage due to no enchants/ weapons upgrades etc. Maybe you're right about how he should be allowed to do this but he's ****** off every DM that he's played under and a fair amount of players in the campaigns... I don't want to make him reroll arbitrarily but seriously if you can solo a boss... put spells into weapons from wands, recharge the wands and then continue as if nothing happened AT LEVEL THREE... I hope you get my point I have an enormous number of questions that I can't seem to find the answer to: What is he doing with a +1 spell storing weapon at level 3? -And if he has a magic weapon, why doesn't anyone else have one? -Where did he get it? Where did he get this wand that he's using to charge up his weapon? -Did you give them to him? If he's a 3rd level Duskblade (to have Arcane Channeling), how does he have any levels in Artificer to recharge his wand? How, as an Artificer is he recharging wands (because that isn't clear from the Eberron Campaign Setting)? -Is he actually level 3, or is there more? Look, there's a couple of possibilities here: 1) He's cheating like a fiend, and you're too frustrated with the mechanics of what he's presenting to realise that he has too many class levels (compared to the other players) and is too well equipped (compared to the other players). Where did he get this +1 Spell Storing Weapon? Did you give it to him? He's not high enough level to create one, and probably wouldn't have the resources barring that. -or- 2) You're a terrible DM. You've given him a weapon, and he has levels appropriate to everyone else, but your challenges are weak, and he's rolling over them. -or- 3) Both. Not only is your player cheating, but you're also incompetent. ----- As Muspelheim said, it's not even clear how he's doing 60 damage, or if that's even out of the question. If you want help with this, post his exact character level, stats, feats and equipment. Until then, saying he's an overpowered level 3 character that is actually incapable of doing the things you say he does wont earn you any sympathy or solutions.
TwistedPuppy 12-10-07, 01:30 PM	Maybe you're right about how he should be allowed to do this but he's ****** off every DM that he's played under and a fair amount of players in the campaigns... I don't want to make him reroll arbitrarily but seriously if you can solo a boss... put spells into weapons from wands, recharge the wands and then continue as if nothing happened AT LEVEL THREE... I hope you get my point Since I don't know anything about artificers, maybe they have a class ability that lets them, but IIRC wands cannot be recharged. So there is part of your problem. Now, to me the rules regarding spell storing are sufficiently restrictive that it really shouldn't be a big deal where the spell came from as long as it meets the requirements, but I do tend to agree with kelvinaw273 that a wand is a triggered effect and wouldn't work. As far as dealing out 60 points of damage, the only way I can figure it was if the spell was cast by a mage who could max out the damage - 10th level in the case of most 3rd level spells. So I'd want to know just where they got a wand like that in the first place at third level, and I'd require some kind of Spellcraft check even if I allowed it to be used to "load" the spell-storing weapon, maybe like casting from a scroll. While I know that isn't stated RAW, the reason being he's not triggering the spell, he's moving it to another storage medium. (And again, that's why I'm pretty much in agreement with kelinaw273.)
Nephlite 12-10-07, 01:55 PM	Since I don't know anything about artificers, maybe they have a class ability that lets them, but IIRC wands cannot be recharged. So there is part of your problem. Now, to me the rules regarding spell storing are sufficiently restrictive that it really shouldn't be a big deal where the spell came from as long as it meets the requirements, but I do tend to agree with kelvinaw273 that a wand is a triggered effect and wouldn't work. As far as dealing out 60 points of damage, the only way I can figure it was if the spell was cast by a mage who could max out the damage - 10th level in the case of most 3rd level spells. So I'd want to know just where they got a wand like that in the first place at third level, and I'd require some kind of Spellcraft check even if I allowed it to be used to "load" the spell-storing weapon, maybe like casting from a scroll. While I know that isn't stated RAW, the reason being he's not triggering the spell, he's moving it to another storage medium. (And again, that's why I'm pretty much in agreement with kelinaw273.) Do'nt forget Blades of Blood (in PHB 2): deals the Duskblade damage to deal extra damage. That should bring him up to 50 damage easily (depending on level). Asumming 2 handed: +6 from Power Attack +3 Strength (assuming 14 Str) +7 average Greatsword damage +1 magic +3d6 (average 10.5) Shocking Grasp Currently: 27.5 easily. If he cast the buff Bloods of Blood (I need PHB to check): he can deal 20 more at least. On a Crit: he'd do 65 to 70.
malbur 12-10-07, 02:17 PM	I have an enormous number of questions that I can't seem to find the answer to: What is he doing with a +1 spell storing weapon at level 3? -And if he has a magic weapon, why doesn't anyone else have one? -Where did he get it? Where did he get this wand that he's using to charge up his weapon? -Did you give them to him? If he's a 3rd level Duskblade (to have Arcane Channeling), how does he have any levels in Artificer to recharge his wand? How, as an Artificer is he recharging wands (because that isn't clear from the Eberron Campaign Setting)? -Is he actually level 3, or is there more? Look, there's a couple of possibilities here: 1) He's cheating like a fiend, and you're too frustrated with the mechanics of what he's presenting to realise that he has too many class levels (compared to the other players) and is too well equipped (compared to the other players). Where did he get this +1 Spell Storing Weapon? Did you give it to him? He's not high enough level to create one, and probably wouldn't have the resources barring that. -or- 2) You're a terrible DM. You've given him a weapon, and he has levels appropriate to everyone else, but your challenges are weak, and he's rolling over them. 1. HE GETS THE +1 WEAPON FROM HIS PERSONAL WEAPON AUGMENTATION INFUSION. I GAVE HIM NOTHING EXCEPT THE OPPORTUNITY TO BUY SWORDS. 2. He does not have the wands yet (thank god) but he was using that as an example and he's the person who WILL go out of his way to get them. 3. My mistake, he is actually level 4 (He leveled since I wrote this the first time). 1 artificer 3 duskblade. 4. Hmm... i'm not sure where I saw that they can recharge wands so I guess that until I find it (or should he try to do it, he will show me) I will just say that they cannot do it. 5. My challenges are not weak as they are perfect for the group as a whole to fight them but when i intend to have an important fight (say an NPC should not die or the entire group working together should down the creature and at level 3-4 they have 50 health) and he just goes up and immediately kills it... I do adapt in those situations but even so dishing out so much damage as one person it seems a little ridiculous 6. I think the solution I will be looking at is DR for magic (as he is the only spell caster in the party). I don't think I am a bad DM and I hope not but perhaps that is the case. Everyone is enjoying the campaign so far and liking where it is going so I hope that is not the case.
malbur 12-10-07, 02:24 PM	Do'nt forget Blades of Blood (in PHB 2): deals the Duskblade damage to deal extra damage. That should bring him up to 50 damage easily (depending on level). Asumming 2 handed: +6 from Power Attack +3 Strength (assuming 14 Str) +7 average Greatsword damage +1 magic +3d6 (average 10.5) Shocking Grasp Currently: 27.5 easily. If he cast the buff Bloods of Blood (I need PHB to check): he can deal 20 more at least. On a Crit: he'd do 65 to 70. Thank you for showing the math. He does have blades of blood and he uses shocking grasp... funny thing is he's doing something else where he has the illumian race (forget the book... races of destiny perhaps) which give him the ability to get stones that float around your head increasing your spell caster level by 2... (he argues that applies to his artificer and his artificer also gets a +2 to weapon damage because of the book saying they get effective +2 artifcer levels in the Creation class (he's butchered that language mashing it all together I caught him once and just saw that now which i'll have to fix)) so he says he can do a +5d6 or something because of the stones which i'm not exactly sure on. I give him credit for putting in so much time and effort to build this amazing class but i dunno... seems like I have to go back and reread every single sentence that is ever written about his character because from experience he does mash it all together to modify it to his desires...
Muspelheim 12-10-07, 03:01 PM	Somehow, I got the impression that the character in question was a dual-wielder since the thread-starter talked about 'his main hand'. Of course, it's easier with a two-hander to do substantial damage, so this is probably more realistic. Still, it's not close to 60, except on a crit and if crits are the problem, there are way more problematic options than a duskblade, since a fair amount of his damage won't be multiplied. Blades of Blood are 1d6 or 3d6 extra if he takes 5 dmg himself, so that would only bring the damage up to slightly less than 40. With spellstoring, it begins to approach the 60 mark, but as I alluded to in my previous post, a 10-minute duration with a 1-minute casting time is of limited use in many situations, so he definitely should not be able to dominate on a permanent basis due to this. A good start would be to actually read the rules yourself, as it does seem that his reading of certain things are rather ... liberal :rolleyes: (for instance, the krau sigil only gives +1 caster level - and it might not even apply to infusions, as they aren't really spells or spell-like abilities iirc).
Pezz 12-10-07, 03:10 PM	14548351which give him the ability to get stones that float around your head increasing your spell caster level by 2... (he argues that applies to his artificer and his artificer also gets a +2 to weapon damage because of the book saying they get effective +2 artifcer levels in the Creation class (he's butchered that language mashing it all together I caught him once and just saw that now which i'll have to fix)) so he says he can do a +5d6 or something because of the stones which i'm not exactly sure on. He is straight up BSing you here. Those runes will NOT boost the Artificer's caster level. the artificer does not HAVE a caster level. The first thing the book says about artificer infusions is this: "An artificer is not spellcaster, but he does have the ability to imbue items with magical infusions. Infusions are neither arcane nor divine; ..." so, boosting a caster level will not affect the artificer's abilities in the slightest. Not only that, what is this creation bonus that he is giving himself? A first level artificer gets Artificer knowledge (detect magic for free and time) artisan bonus (bonus on specific use magic device checks) disable trap item creation (emulate spells that he doesn't have when creating items) scribe scroll None of those abilities give a bonus to the weapons used, or damage done. so, i still need the answer to this question 3)his augmentation takes 1 minute to activate (10 rounds), and will only last for 10min/level. As a level 1 artificer, he can only do 2 infusions per day. Are you keeping track of the time passed from when he activates it and when he uses the ability? are you keeping track of how long it takes him to activate it? how many times can he cast shocking grasp? how is the spell progression for a duskblade? Seems to me that something is odd here. The scroll->stored is perfectly fine, but how are you handling him doing his infusions? are you keeping track of his daily spell limit? is HE? Even a wizard only gets 1 2nd level spell and 2 1st level spells at level 3. Are you pitting them against multiple encounters a day? if not, nova characters will quickly outshine just about anything else. ps. if you want to outsmart him in this one, the next time he goes to fight a BBEG, have the BBEG use an image spell, or have one of his minions disguised as him and wait for the duskblade to nova, then show the real BBEG.
cheezgrater 12-10-07, 03:21 PM	2. He does not have the wands yet (thank god) but he was using that as an example and he's the person who WILL go out of his way to get them. 4. Hmm... i'm not sure where I saw that they can recharge wands so I guess that until I find it (or should he try to do it, he will show me) I will just say that they cannot do it. Power Surge, 3rd Level Infusion. That means he has to be *at least* Artificer 5 before he can use it. Also, it has an XP cost of 5xSpell Level, which *cannot* come from his craft reserve. At this point, he won't be able to do that until Level 8, assuming he goes for Artificer 5, Duskblade 3. Also, his Artificer caster level at this point will be 7, meaning that the infusion only gives the wand 1 charge. which give him the ability to get stones that float around your head increasing your spell caster level by 2... (he argues that applies to his artificer and his artificer also gets a +2 to weapon damage because of the book saying they get effective +2 artifcer levels in the Creation class (he's butchered that language mashing it all together I caught him once and just saw that now which i'll have to fix)) so he says he can do a +5d6 or something because of the stones which i'm not exactly sure on. The +2 caster levels is legit...Krau sigil. However, that only affects things like the Duration of spells, not what spells he can have available (doesn't let him get 2nd level infusions). The +2 weapon damage is legit, but check his feats. He should only have 2 feats as a 4th level character, and to get that +2 damage, he has to have taken Weapon Focus (Weapon he is using) and Improved Sigil (Aesh). He shouldn't have any other feats. +2 artifcer levels in the Creation class I'm not sure what exactly is going on here, but if he is trying to do what I think he is trying to do, smack him. Caster Level increases don't grant him effective class levels, and there is nothing for Illumians that does it, either. he says he can do a +5d6 or something because of the stones +5d6 damage....hmmm Well, let's see...Blades of Blood, assuming he takes the damage, grants +3d6. That should also be his Arcane Channelling, yes? If no, then what is he channeling, and how is he getting the spell, since by the PHBII, duskblades can only use arcane channelling on touch spells and Blades of Blood is the only damaging first level touch spell they get. How is he currently using shocking grasp? It is not an Artificer or a Duskblade spell (unless it got added to the duskblade list somewhere? If so, I would appreciate a link). Otherwise, it has to be coming from a scroll (which he has burned xp and/or gp to get). If so, then the Caster Level is 1, meaning only +1d6 of damage, or he's paid a crapton more to get more damage. Well, 3d6 from Arcane Chanelling Blades (but he takes 5 damge), 1d6 from the Spellstored Shocking Grasp, 1d6 from...the weapon? Sounds right, I suppose. Note that none of that had anything to do with the Illumian Sigils.....5d6 from the sigils is bunk, so doublecheck him there. In short, there are a couple questionable spots that need to be doublechecked, but this may well be completely aboveboard. However, if so, it seems that you have a major optimizer trying to play in a party of less-optimized characters, in a less-optimized campaign. Talking to him out-of-game and explaining this to him and asking him to tone it down may be a good option.
Grumman 12-10-07, 04:03 PM	How is he currently using shocking grasp? It is not an Artificer or a Duskblade spell (unless it got added to the duskblade list somewhere? If so, I would appreciate a link). Actually it is. Check the spell list at the end of the Duskblade class description.
Sinis 12-10-07, 04:29 PM	1. HE GETS THE +1 WEAPON FROM HIS PERSONAL WEAPON AUGMENTATION INFUSION. I GAVE HIM NOTHING EXCEPT THE OPPORTUNITY TO BUY SWORDS. Alrighty, now we have something we can nail him down for. Do you always allow him a minute (10 rounds) prep time for Personal Weapon Augmentation, and then your big baddie challenges him in the next 10 minutes? PWA only lasts 10 minutes when you're a 1st level Artificer. What happens when he's caught unawares by a powerful bad guy? Basically the call I make is this. Unless he's cheating you with cast times, you're giving him too much prep time. Other characters can do plenty of good stuff in 10 rounds. In less than half that time, a fourth level cleric could have cast Divine Favour, Aid, Bull's Strength, and Magic Weapon. Would an extra +5 to hit, +4 to damage, temporary hit points be just as powerful? How about if he just casts Hold Person, and stabs him in the eye with his deity's favoured weapon? That's a mere 2 rounds worth of actions. (There's a hint in there about Hold person, and killing someone in two actions). I think that you're basically giving them too much prep time before the bad guy attacks, or you're making his position obvious. If the PCs are caught unaware, and your player doesn't have time to "power up", I think he'd be a lot less effective. Further, I think that you're overestimating what he can do with respect to the other players. Moreover, what the other posters are saying may be true. It's possible that he's cheating. You should have him go over his character, and where these bonuses are coming from, with rulebooks handy.
cheezgrater 12-10-07, 04:39 PM	Alrighty, now we have something we can nail him down for. Do you always allow him a minute (10 rounds) prep time for Personal Weapon Augmentation, and then your big baddie challenges him in the next 10 minutes? PWA only lasts 10 minutes when you're a 1st level Artificer. What happens when he's caught unawares by a powerful bad guy? Basically the call I make is this. Unless he's cheating you with cast times, you're giving him too much prep time. Other characters can do plenty of good stuff in 10 rounds. Actually, his Artificer CL is 3 due to Krau sigil, so it would be a 30 min duration. However, I did catch something. His "Shocking Grasp" can only be 4d6, not 5d6 (Thanks Grumman for correcting me). Krau Sigil increases CL by 2 up to the character's Hit Dice meaning his Duskblade CL is only 4, since he has 4 hit dice. It does not give him a 5Cl needed to get 5d6 from shocking grasp.
Muspelheim 12-10-07, 04:57 PM	Actually, his Artificer CL is 3 due to Krau sigil, so it would be a 30 min duration. However, I did catch something. His "Shocking Grasp" can only be 4d6, not 5d6 (Thanks Grumman for correcting me). Krau Sigil increases CL by 2 up to the character's Hit Dice meaning his Duskblade CL is only 4, since he has 4 hit dice. It does not give him a 5Cl needed to get 5d6 from shocking grasp. Are you absolutely positive that krau sigil 1) is a +2 CL increase; I was pretty sure it was only +1 and 2) applies to artificer infusions? I don't recall infusions being described as spells or spell-likes and I believe krau only applies to those. Of course, if any of the above is being clarified or changed in a FAQ or errata, I wouldn't know since I generally don't bother with them and just house-rule things instead.
cheezgrater 12-10-07, 05:14 PM	Are you absolutely positive that krau sigil 1) is a +2 CL increase; I was pretty sure it was only +1 and 2) applies to artificer infusions? I don't recall infusions being described as spells or spell-likes and I believe krau only applies to those. Of course, if any of the above is being clarified or changed in a FAQ or errata, I wouldn't know since I generally don't bother with them and just house-rule things instead. Races of Destiny page 54, left column. "On attaining second level in any class, an illumian gains a second different power sigil, and the bonus granted by each sigil increases to +2". Eberron Campaign Setting, page 31, left column. "They [infusions] function just like spells and follow all the rules for spells" Multiple other places in the infusion description liken them to spells, so it seems fairly reasonable to assume that increases to caster level can affect artificers as well. It never specifically says they do, but it never says they don't. Considering how frequently the section restates how infusions are almost exactly like spells (the only exception is "What is a viable target to cast on?"), it seems that allowing this is definitely RAI, and there is nothing RAW against it.
Nephlite 12-10-07, 05:52 PM	Alrighty, now we have something we can nail him down for. Do you always allow him a minute (10 rounds) prep time for Personal Weapon Augmentation, and then your big baddie challenges him in the next 10 minutes? PWA only lasts 10 minutes when you're a 1st level Artificer. What happens when he's caught unawares by a powerful bad guy? Basically the call I make is this. Unless he's cheating you with cast times, you're giving him too much prep time. Other characters can do plenty of good stuff in 10 rounds. Moreover, what the other posters are saying may be true. It's possible that he's cheating. You should have him go over his character, and where these bonuses are coming from, with rulebooks handy. Artifcers can spend 1 action point to cast a minute casting time to be 1 standard action. So does he have action points?
Pezz 12-10-07, 07:39 PM	You guys need to stop ignoring my posts your just repeating me at this point XD I asked about the casting time and duration on the last page. I also asked about this creation bonus already. He is straight up BSing you here. Those runes will NOT boost the Artificer's caster level. the artificer does not HAVE a caster level. The first thing the book says about artificer infusions is this: "An artificer is not a spellcaster, but he does have the ability to imbue items with magical infusions. Infusions are neither arcane nor divine; ..." Artificer's aren't spellcasters so they don't get caster levels. eg. inflict light wounds specifically mentions "per caster level" while inflict light damage just says level. cheezgater, you should put the full quote there, not just that part. "An artificer is not a spellcaster, but he does have the ability to imbue items with magical infusions. Infusions are neither arcane nor divine; They are drawn from the artificer infusion list. They function just like spells and follow all the rules for spells. For example, an infusion can be dispelled, it will not function in an antimagic area, and an artificer must make a concentration check if injured while imbuing an item with an infusion." aka, they are not spells, but they are affected by magical affects in the same way that spells are.
malbur 12-10-07, 11:46 PM	He's getting a +2 to Artificer level somewhere else though... it's not the krau sigil or whatever i'm pretty sure (i'm not even certain that it would work like that i'll have to think on it) but I think (I've caught him doing this) that he's pulling the +2 Artificer levels from the "creation" section of his class's description and saying that it works with this too... he has done that before so i'm gonna double check to see if thats what is happening here... but yeah he can dish out significant damage... I am not certain whats going on besides, i've got a month to work on this because of our winter break (at college)
Pezz 12-11-07, 12:41 AM	Not only that, what is this creation bonus that he is giving himself? A first level artificer gets Artificer knowledge (detect magic for free and time) artisan bonus (bonus on specific use magic device checks) disable trap item creation (emulate spells that he doesn't have when creating items) scribe scroll I couldn't see anything there that would give a bonus to held equipment.
Rood_Inverse 12-11-07, 03:51 PM	Responsible DMs keep character sheets of their players. (Just to make sure no one comes to a game to discover they forgot theirs. Of course. ;) ) Do you have his? Or a copy? Post it please. If the board can see all the math... We could find where he's making his mistakes.