Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Simbul 11-18-03, 06:28 AM	This issue has been raised before on these boards, and I've found it quite troublesome that 3.5 didnt do much to address it...Gate Conjuration (Creation or Calling) Level: Clr 9, Sor/Wiz 9 Components: V, S, XP; see text [spell text shortened] ...Calling Creatures: The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has an XP cost (see below). If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures. You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level. A single creature with more HD than twice your caster level can’t be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time. A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell. If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards. (Some creatures may want their payment in “livestock” rather than in coin, which could involve complications.) Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over the promised reward. After this is done, the creature is instantly freed to return to its own plane. Failure to fulfill the promise to the letter results in your being subjected to service by the creature or by its liege and master, at the very least. At worst, the creature or its kin may attack you. Note: When you use a calling spell such as gate to call an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it becomes a spell of that type. XP Cost: 1,000 XP (only for the calling creatures function). [emphasis added] The Efreeti normally has 10 Outsider HD, and can grant up to three wishes per day to a non-genie as a spell-like ability. A level 20 caster could summon two efreeti and have the "immediate task" that those Efreeti perform be to grant Wishes to the caster, for the rather low cost of 1,000XP. It also bears noting that as a spell-like ability, the Efreeti does not incur the XP cost either. Since it is possible under the rules, and the PC does still pay a XP cost (albeit 29,000 XP less) I would not want to entirely rule this out, what suggestions would you give to modulate the use of this clever spell tactic (aside from always saying the summoned Efreeti has used up her wishes/per day for that day), or giving some baseless DM 0 ruling without any lore-based justification.
Will Brandiman 11-18-03, 06:41 AM	Efreeti are intelligent, cunning and immortal beings. They would have realised thousands of years ago that unless they did something to prevent it, they would be forever at the beck and call of mortal spellcasters trying to get their wishes. Wouldn't you think that at some stage they will have offered some puny mortal 3 free wishes as long as the mortal promised to use the first one to make the efreeti immune to the effects of gate, planar binding etc?
Moblin 11-18-03, 06:46 AM	Well there is a reason that gating in efrets to get free wishes isn’t done. (Well beside from the game braking and the fact that most DM’s on these boards would smack their players with a shovel if they tried) No outsider like being enslaved, and as a race of wish givers I would think it logical that the efrets have taken steps to ensure that they’re not summoned all the time. The most obvious step would be to have some sort of task force that deals with wizards using this tactic. A cobble of advanced efrets, with a few class level of your choice, showing up to teach the arrogant wizard a lesson, should make it pain fully obvious that they don’t like being exploited for the gains of a simple mortal.
IceBear13 11-18-03, 07:25 AM	But wouldn´t you say that figthing a battle for the caster is even more bothering for them than just granting some wishes and they would take steps to prevent this, too ? And if the efreeti did, wouldn´t creatures with even more power also do it ? So if you follow this line of argumentation, no one could ever gate in any creature against its will without serious risk of retribution by some "gate in intervention force", making the whole gate in part of the spell more or less useless. ...except the DM decides only to use the "intervention force" in case of "wish abuse", but that would be pretty arbitrary. So if you really don´t like it you should rather fix the rules than come up with something like this.
the_heart 11-18-03, 07:37 AM	efreet are evil-minded SOB's that are notorious for er...granting wishes that ummm....dont quite meet the wishers expectations normally i despise and loathe DM's who do this, but, i think this is the one situation where the DM is well within his rights to put his 'i'm so evil i can't not laugh maniacally' hat on, and pervert the wishes in any and all possible ways. second and additionally(depending on whether you still have the hat on) efreet wishes are monitored by the head honcho in the city of brass, abuses such as this WILL be noted. efreet assassins, blackguards may well come looking for appropriate compensation.(can't remember if thats official, but i did read something to that effect) after trying this once, i don't think many will try again.
Moblin 11-18-03, 08:00 AM	Originally posted by IceBear13 But wouldn´t you say that figthing a battle for the caster is even more bothering for them than just granting some wishes and they would take steps to prevent this, too ? And if the efreeti did, wouldn´t creatures with even more power also do it ? True. In my campaign world every intelligent outsider is going to resent being controlled by a mortal. But the revenge part depends on how easy (hard) it’s going to be. If the 20 lvl PC gates in 5 imps and they want to kill him for it, they’ll need some serious mussel from a high level demon. After the PC is dead they’ll have a huge debt to that demon and no demon want to be in another demons debt. This doesn’t mean that they’ll forget all about it. They have time on their side so perhaps they’ll kill the PC grandson (great idea for an adventure). Efreeti are infamous for their hatred of servitude (say so in the MM) so it’s only logical that they as a race have developed some sort of revenge system. All the efreet benefit from this sort of arrangement as it ensures that if they’re ever forced into servitude (whether they had to for fill wishes or fight) they’ll have a way of revenge So if you follow this line of argumentation, no one could ever gate in any creature against its will without serious risk of retribution by some "gate in intervention force", making the whole gate in part of the spell more or less useless. ...except the DM decides only to use the "intervention force" in case of "wish abuse", but that would be pretty arbitrary. So if you really don´t like it you should rather fix the rules than come up with something like this. The PC can still uses the gate in part to makes an a deal with an outsider I wouldn’t call that useless. And as I said not all outsiders have the possibility of retribution
jasper 11-18-03, 08:39 AM	Bring Bring! Efreeti Villianious Indentured Lifeline How may I help you? Customer...Hello First time caller. An wicked wizard just gated me into his living room and made my grant him 3 wishes. Did you do the standard 666 twist? Customer... I tired but his wishes were very well worded and now i down 15 k xp. Plus... Calm down sir. Where did this abuse take place? Customer... Um just outside of the town of Lost Vegas. To the North. Ok. This is what we going to do. First we drop rumors to local Paladins the wizard is friendly with demons. Second his banker is going call his note in on tower. Third we will spoil his oats so he has to get off his high horse. Fourth we get really evil and suggest to everyone in family, friends and town that he loves lime jello with broccalia in it. Thank you for you call. Good bye. Click
Moblin 11-18-03, 08:42 AM	:heehee Very funny
Millennium 11-18-03, 10:22 AM	Dealing with the efreet is a dangerous business. If your wizard wants to get six free wishes from them by using Gate, then either he's not too bright or you're not running the efreet to be evil enough. Remember: the efreet, not the player, casts wish; all the player can do is give the efreet an idea of what he wants. Also, there is the fact that a wizard who spends too much time calling efreet will attract extraplanar notice, and will have planar powers coming to hunt down the troublemaker. If nothing else, squads of efreet will be coming to put an end to the annoyance, and depending on the wishes being used, they may have help from others as well. But wouldn´t you say that figthing a battle for the caster is even more bothering for them than just granting some wishes and they would take steps to prevent this, too? That depends on what is being fought. Wizards generally don't gate in creatures unless the opponent is something big, but when the opponent is big they tend to gate in creatures which are particularly well-suited for that kind of fight. This tends to make things much easier. Meanwhile, casting wish is casting wish. That can be incredibly troublesome, depending on the circumstance. And if the efreeti did, wouldn´t creatures with even more power also do it ? That also depends. Efreet are particularly renowned for their hatred of being called through gates. However, other creatures (particularly those called less often) may not mind as much. Some good creatures may even like performing such tasks. Then again, not many good creatures can grant wishes like the efreet can. So if you follow this line of argumentation, no one could ever gate in any creature against its will without serious risk of retribution by some "gate in intervention force", making the whole gate in part of the spell more or less useless. Not at all. Just follow certain guidelines: 1) Gate in only willing creatures unless there is no alternative. 2) Use gateon unwilling creatures only sparingly. Even the efreet generally won't consider an occasional gate-user worth bothering to seek revenge against. 3) Treat gated-in creatures with respect. I mean, you're enslaving these beings, if only temporarily, so the least you could do is be nice about it. This isn't likely to make the efreeti like you or anything, but it may spell the difference between simply holding you in scorn versus hunting you across the planes. Basically, it means that you have to respect the gate spell and its implications. How is this a Bad Thing? This is not Final Fantasy; summoned creatures have feelings too.
Rabe 11-18-03, 10:46 AM	My players have long found out (since 1st edition, when the efreeti racket was invented), that wishes not granted freely hurt more than shooting your own leg. Wishes are requests to someone, who actually provides the power...and with efreeti it is the sultan in the city of brass, who is notorious for his beneficent attitude and angelic nature :cool: I had since 1st edition to get to grips with wishes, and had quite a few houserules, which I am still using. Like having several types of wishes (beings like efreeti grant only wishes limited by something for example, and the effects will not last forever...a Healing granted by one might vanish after a week and leave you mortally wounded again, the wished for flying carpet might be gone when the sun rises next, and so on; you can get something out of it, but not the usual wish for better stats; a wish granted by a greater god was the most powerful and able to achieve the things players crave, and all things and creatures fell in between) and limts upon them (some did not last forever, others achieved the stated goal by influencing events to get the player what he wished for, some tried to bring about the stated wish according to the nature of the power behind the wish...so asking the god of fire for rain was a no-no, as was asking the god of decay for more CON). Rabe
Kerrexl 11-18-03, 03:21 PM	Well due to the nature of gate-spell the efretii cannot twist the wish - but, that doesn't incl. that the efretii's cannot return later, if they feel abused, or even gate the PC into their realm... They ARE evil, and thus do take offence at being abused... especially if it is through a gate spell..
Hazzurath 11-18-03, 03:52 PM	My DnD-fu (in particular knowledge of Efreeti) is poor. Can the Efreeti use "wish" itself to explode the wizard?
ikkonoishi 11-18-03, 03:57 PM	Originally posted by Kerrexl Well due to the nature of gate-spell the efretii cannot twist the wish - but, that doesn't incl. that the efretii's cannot return later, if they feel abused, or even gate the PC into their realm... They ARE evil, and thus do take offence at being abused... especially if it is through a gate spell.. Yes they can. A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. It does not say that they have to perform that service to the best of their abilities without attempting to kill you at every turn.
The Hanged Man 11-18-03, 04:32 PM	Just to be clear, the restriction on using abilities that cost xp applies to summoned, not called, creatures. The Gate wording is odd. It limits actions to "1 round per caster level," but then talks about "longer or more involved" services. Since longer already covers more than 1 round per level, more involved must mean something - and could very well mean things that take less than a round, but cause a lot of trouble for the called creature, or similar problems. Arguably, granting a wish is a "more involved form of service" than a one round per level combat. It at least gives you something to hang your hat on, besides rule 0. This honestly has never come up in one of my campaigns. I would probably let the wishes happen, and then quickly have the wishes undone. The efreet could just go anywhere on the material plane with a buddy or two, and tell anyone "I'll give you a wish, if you then use three (or six or . . .) wishes to undo these three (or six or . . .) wishes. Then, I'll give you another wish." What peasant wouldn't make that trade? The bottom line is, don't mess with things that can grant wishes.
Nephet 11-18-03, 06:43 PM	Gate, like many 9th level spells, usually requires the DM to decide on the ramifications of their abuse. If it's being abused I carry out the RPing implications of the act to the extreme. This could range from a simple twisting of the wishes to having an Efreet/Sor18 open his own gate pulling the abuser into the City of Brass to answer charges. The calling part of gate is borderline evil and should be dealt with appropriately. It's a powerful spell and it should have powerful effects, but there should also be serious consequences.
thalious 11-18-03, 06:52 PM	Bartering for a wish could easily go over the casting time of the spell. A round is only 6 seconds now.
MinusInnocence 11-18-03, 11:53 PM	I don't feel that forcing the Efreet to do battle for you is equivalent to asking for six Wishes. I'm throwing my vote in with the camp of, "Asking for even ONE Wish counts as 'contractual service'." You know what would be funny, though? If Efreeti started spreading the word on the Prime that demanding Wishes was, in fact, part of the "immediate tasks" function of the spell. Hell, come to think of it, it would probably take the Wizard more than one round/level to tell the Efreet exactly what he wants the Wish to fulfill. After that... roll initiative!
DrMorganes 11-19-03, 01:04 AM	Dangerous ground, this. Any evil creature will actively seek to pervert the intent of its master's commands. Those magically bound to service may be prohibited from directly harming the master, but that won't stop them from wreaking as much indirect havoc as possible. This may be achieved by following only the exact letter of the command, intentionally misinterpreting words (the old "raze" vs "raise" trick), half-granting a request, or any one of dozens of other misdirections. The tale of King Midas is a good example of granting the exact letter of a wish. He wished that everything he touched turned to gold, but what he really desired was the power to turn objects to gold at will. He was granted the letter of his wish - with tragic results. As stated above, nothing prevents the creature from finding a way to exact revenge after the fact. The old folktale Lars, My Servant illustrates this wonderfully. Essentially, a man acquires the service of a supernatural servant (Lars) who must do everything asked of him. After many such tasks, Lars tricks his master into releasing him from service and proceeds to no only undo all of his previous work but lands his master in the gallows. The tale has a happy ending, but the point is well made.
JonnyTuba 12-03-03, 09:47 PM	People in my campaign go to biiig trouble to even dare to make a wish. I am fair when they cast the spell them selves but if they ever had tried that trick with me I will promise you, that character would wish (inc. pun) he had read the small print. I have still to see a wish that i can’t fook up real bad, making him wish (oops, did it again) he newer had tried it. This have ended in a bunch of freaked out players if anyone even mention Wish. "Don't trust the Wish, the wish is baad, the wish is evil" Take a look at the movie "Wishmaster", you’ll get the idea. :) And what do ya know; I am just fine with that. The real problem here is the Instant Kill Double Your HD No Save trick that still work with gate... when are they going to fix that.:confused:
primemover003 12-03-03, 10:58 PM	Wish Universal Level: Sor/Wiz 9 Components: V, XP Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: See text Target, Effect, or Area: See text Duration: See text Saving Throw: See text Spell Resistance: Yes Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you. Even wish, however, has its limits. A wish can produce any one of the following effects. • Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you. • Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you. • Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school. • Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school. • Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity. • Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value. • Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item. • Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies. • Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead. • Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level. • Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies. • Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent’s successful save, a foe’s successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend’s failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies. You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.) Duplicated spells allow saves and spell resistance as normal (but save DCs are for 9th-level spells). Material Component: When a wish duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 10,000 gp, you must provide that component. XP Cost: The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP. Efreet Large Outsider (Extraplanar, Fire) Hit Dice: 10d8+20 (65 hp) Initiative: +7 Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 40 ft. (perfect) Armor Class: 18 (–1 size, +3 Dex, +6 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 15 Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+20 Attack: Slam +15 melee (1d8+6 plus 1d6 fire) Full Attack: 2 slams +15 melee (1d8+6 plus 1d6 fire) Space/Reach: 10 ft./ 10 ft. Special Attacks: Change size, heat, spell-like abilities Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., immunity to fire, plane shift, telepathy 100 ft., vulnerability to cold Saves: Fort +9, Ref +10, Will +9 Abilities: Str 23, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 15 Skills: Bluff +15, Craft (any one) +14, Concentration +15, Diplomacy +6, Disguise +2 (+4 acting), Intimidate +17, Listen +15, Move Silently +16, Sense Motive +15, Spellcraft +14, Spot +15 Feats: Combat Casting, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved InitiativeB, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (scorching ray) Environment: Elemental Plane of Fire Organization: Solitary, company (2–4), or band (6–15) Challenge Rating: 8 Treasure: Standard coins; double goods; standard items Alignment: Always lawful evil Advancement: 11–15 HD (Large); 16–30 HD (Huge) Level Adjustment: — The efreet (singular efreeti) are genies from the Elemental Plane of Fire. An efreeti stands about 12 feet tall and weighs about 2,000 pounds. Efreet speak Auran, Common, Ignan, and Infernal. Combat Efreet love to mislead, befuddle, and confuse their foes. They do so for enjoyment as well as a battle tactic. Change Size (Sp): Twice per day, an efreeti can magically change a creature’s size. This works just like an enlarge person or reduce person spell (the efreeti chooses when using the ability), except that the ability can work on the efreeti. A DC 13 Fortitude save negates the effect. The save DC is Charisma-based. This is the equivalent of a 2nd-level spell. Heat (Ex): An efreeti’s red-hot body deals 1d6 points of extra fire damage whenever it hits in melee, or in each round it maintains a hold when grappling. Spell-Like Abilities: At will—detect magic, produce flame, pyrotechnics (DC 14), scorching ray (1 ray only); 3/day—invisibility, wall of fire (DC 16); 1/day—grant up to three wishes (to nongenies only), gaseous form, permanent image (DC 18), polymorph (self only). Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. I think this clearly shows that if an Efreet must grant wishes for a summoner, that a wish outside the boundaries of a standard wish are fair game to pervert. Requests for Money, Immortality, and the like are well outside the regular effects of 8th level or lower Wiz/Sor spells.
Racies 12-03-03, 11:35 PM	Planar Ally Conjuration (Calling) [see text for lesser planar ally] Level: Clr 6 Effect: One or two called elementals or outsiders, totaling no more than 12 HD, which cannot be more than 30 ft. apart when they appear You may ask the creature to perform one task in exchange for a payment from you. Tasks might range from the simple to the complex. You must be able to communicate with the creature called in order to bargain for its services. The creature called requires a payment for its services. This payment can take a variety of forms, from donating gold or magic items to an allied temple, to a gift given directly to the creature, to some other action on your part that matches the creature’s alignment and goals. Regardless, this payment must be made before the creature agrees to perform any services. The bargaining takes at least 1 round, so any actions by the creature begin in the round after it arrives. A task taking up to 1 minute per caster level requires a payment of 100 gp per HD of the creature called. For a task taking up to 1 hour per caster level, the creature requires a payment of 500 gp per HD. A long-term task, one requiring up to one day per caster level, requires a payment of 1,000 gp per HD. A nonhazardous task requires only half the indicated payment, while an especially hazardous task might require a greater gift. Few if any creatures will accept a task that seems suicidal (remember, a called creature actually dies when it is killed, unlike a summoned creature). However, if the task is strongly aligned with the creature’s ethos, it may halve or even waive the payment. At the end of its task, or when the duration bargained for expires, the creature returns to its home plane (after reporting back to you, if appropriate and possible). Note: When you use a calling spell that calls an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type. DJINNI Large Outsider (Air, Extraplanar) Hit Dice: 7d8+14 (45 hp) Initiative: +8 Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 60 ft. (perfect) Armor Class: 16 (–1 size, +4 Dex, +3 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 12 Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+15 Attack: Slam +10 melee (1d8+4) Full Attack: 2 slams +10 melee (1d8+4) Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. Special Attacks: Air mastery, spell-like abilities, whirlwind Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., immunity to acid, plane shift, telepathy 100 ft. Saves: Fort +7, Ref +9, Will +7 Abilities: Str 18, Dex 19, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 15 Skills: Appraise +12, Concentration +12, Craft (any one) +12, Diplomacy +4, Escape Artist +14, Knowledge (any one) +12, Listen +12, Move Silently +14, Sense Motive +12, Spellcraft +12, Spot +12, Use Rope +4 (+6 with bindings) Feats: Combat Casting, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved InitiativeB Environment: Elemental Plane of Air Organization: Solitary, company (2–4), or band (6–15) Challenge Rating: 5 (noble 8) Treasure: Standard Alignment: Always chaotic good Advancement: 8–10 HD (Large); 11–21 (Huge) Level Adjustment: +6 The djinn (singular djinni) are genies from the Elemental Plane of Air. A djinni is about 10-1/2 feet tall and weighs about 1,000 pounds. Djinn speak Auran, Celestial, Common, and Ignan. Combat Djinn disdain physical combat, preferring to use their magical powers and aerial abilities against foes. A djinni overmatched in combat usually takes flight and becomes a whirlwind to harass those who follow. Air Mastery (Ex): Airborne creatures take a –1 penalty on attack and damage rolls against a djinni. Spell-Like Abilities: At will—invisibility (self only); 1/day— create food and water, create wine (as create water, but wine instead), major creation (created vegetable matter is permanent), persistent image (DC 17), wind walk. Once per day, a djinni can assume gaseous form (as the spell) for up to 1 hour. Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. Whirlwind (Su): A djinni can transform itself into a whirlwind once every 10 minutes and remain in that form for up to 7 rounds. In this form, it can move through the air or along a surface at its fly speed. The whirlwind is 5 feet wide at the base, up to 30 feet wide at the top and up to 50 feet tall. The djinni controls the exact height, but it must be at least 10 feet. A djinni’s movement while in whirlwind form does not provoke attacks of opportunity, even if the djinni enters the space another creature occupies. Another creature might be caught in the whirlwind if it touches or enters the whirlwind, or if the djinni moves into or through the creature’s space. Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the djinni might take damage when caught in the whirlwind and be lifted into the air. An affected creature must succeed on a DC 20 Reflex save when it comes into contact with the whirlwind or take 3d6 points of damage. It must also succeed on a second DC 20 Reflex save or be picked up bodily and held suspended in the powerful winds, automatically taking 1d8 points of damage each round. A creature with a fly speed is allowed a DC 20 Reflex save each round to escape the whirlwind. The creature still takes damage but can leave if the save is successful. The save DC is Strength-based and includes a +3 racial adjustment. Creatures trapped in the whirlwind cannot move except to go where the djinni carries them or to escape the whirlwind. Creatures caught in the whirlwind can otherwise act normally, but must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell. Creatures caught in the whirlwind take a –4 penalty to Dexterity and a –2 penalty on attack rolls. The djinni can have only as many trapped inside a whirlwind at one time as will fit inside the whirlwind’s volume. The djinni can eject any carried creatures whenever it wishes, depositing them wherever the whirlwind happens to be. If the whirlwind’s base touches the ground, it creates a swirling cloud of debris. This cloud is centered on the djinni and has a diameter equal to half the whirlwind’s height. The cloud obscures all vision, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. Creatures 5 feet away have concealment, while those farther away have total concealment. Those caught in the cloud must succeed on a Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell. A djinni in whirlwind form cannot make melee attacks and does not threaten the area around it. Noble Djinn Some djinn (1% of the total population) are noble. A noble djinni can grant three wishes to any being (nongenies only) who captures it. Noble djinn perform no other services and, upon granting the third wish, are free of their servitude. Noble djinn are as strong as efreet (see below), with 10 Hit Dice. Much of the problem of retribution could be simply avoided by paying a noble Djinn a total of 1000 gp and having him cast the wishes for you. it would cost less XP, be safer, and the bargaining part of the spell has the potential to lead to plot hooks. Also, for you power gamers out there, it is a MUCH lower spell level to cast Planar Ally than Gate. Provided you are a cleric or can hire one.
The Hanged Man 12-03-03, 11:47 PM	Planar Ally is a request to your deity to send something to help you. It's under the complete control of the deity. This means it is under the complete control of the DM. If a DM lets somebody summon something like an efreet or djinni, then that DM just blows. Not that this isn't a broken spell for a ton of reasons besides calling wish-granting creatures. You can have a walk-along Planetar. Lame. Planar Binding is more troublesome. Again, though, that spell functions more like Gate. Calling things without proper rewards (i.e., at least as much given as a Wish spell would cost) is dangerous.
Racies 12-03-03, 11:51 PM	once again, this is where the task falls to the players and the DM to find a reasonable middleground for the spells to be used.
Eco-Mono 12-03-03, 11:53 PM	I remember seeing something in the MM that said Efreeti resent being enslaved in any way... as a couple of people have pointed out, the Efreeti, being Evil, will knowingly twist the wishes they are forced to grant, in order to exact revenge. Basically, you need a fully legalese and well-written page explaining your wishes to the Efreet to get ANY sort of good fortune out of this situation... and one again, you then have the problem of retribution.
was_fired 12-04-03, 12:17 AM	Originally posted by Racies [B]Planar Ally Much of the problem of retribution could be simply avoided by paying a noble Djinn a total of 1000 gp and having him cast the wishes for you. it would cost less XP, be safer, and the bargaining part of the spell has the potential to lead to plot hooks. Also, for you power gamers out there, it is a MUCH lower spell level to cast Planar Ally than Gate. Provided you are a cleric or can hire one. Only problem is with planar ally they get to name their price. Now a profit minded efreet or noble Djinn would clearly realise they have the entire wish market cornered since they can each cast it nearly as many times a day as a high level wizard and can do so with no expense. So they will set the price. In the case of noble dijinn there arn't really enough of them to control the market but efreet are another story. The city of brass is described as being larger than any city on the material plane and one of the largest cities in the plane with the bulk of its populations being efreet. So you are talking about at least 100,000 efreet capable of casting wish 3 times a day there and on top of that they have a LAWFUL evil alignment. So they will end up forming this into some kind of an economic weapon to be used to gain the efreet empire power and thus they will set the price fairly high. Say around 9 * 17 * 10 (base spell cost) + 5,000 * 3 = 16,530 a wish. Mortal casters still couldn't compete effectivly since they have to pay for the XP which ends up needing a times five which would mean spending 26,530 and their wishs are limited by XP so the efreet could likely afford to charge an equal amount and still hold a monopoly.
StormKnight 12-04-03, 12:51 PM	Question: given the wording posted here, can you even specify that you get one of the Noble Djinn capable of granting wishes? What if you just a regular one who can't even do it? PC: "I wish for a +5 sword!" Djinn: "Wow, that would be cool. I'd like one to. How the heck do you propose I come up with one for you?"
Derren S. 12-04-03, 01:35 PM	All depends how much control you have over the creature, but by the wording from the gate spell the Efreti can't really pervert anything if the command is like "Use all your wish power to make me more (Insert Attribute) as much as the wishes allow it safely" Killing the Efreti afterwards prevents any retributions. Sure most DMs prevent this kind of abuse by perverting the wishes but going 100% with the rules this is legal and will work.
lukelightning 12-04-03, 01:44 PM	What I would do if I were DMing is just make it so genies don't grant wishes. The whole "three wish" thing is a misinterpretation of the original genie stories.... the genies would perform three acts of service, and since the genies from folklore are pretty powerful, they could do just about anything (mostly due to the power of narrative expediency. The 1001 Arabian Nights storytellers didn't have to worry about game balance, xp limits, attacks of opportunity or dual-scimitar weilding good drow rangers).
Skrayper77 12-04-03, 02:22 PM	Wishes are 1 per day. 3 times to a single target. To get 3 wishes, he'd have to be there for 3 days, or be gated in 3 times. Assuming it's an Efreeti. That's more than 'contractual service' calls for right there. Best case scenario, they get one wish. Also, the case with Noble Djinn: Some djinn (1% of the total population) are noble. A noble djinni can grant three wishes to any being (nongenies only) who captures it. Noble djinn perform no other services and, upon granting the third wish, are free of their servitude. Noble djinn are as strong as efreet (see below), with 10 Hit Dice. Gate doesn't mean you've captured it, and also I'd rule that Nobles classify as unique, considering that they only make up 1% of the population,making them pretty unique.
Skrayper77 12-04-03, 02:25 PM	To get around Planar Ally, you can classify the task as dangerous (he is losing precious experience). Or, you can simply up the HD of all Efreeti in your game. Remember rule 0. If Efreeti are tougher in your world, they'd best learn to deal with it. Applies to all other wish granting creatures.
Derren S. 12-04-03, 02:26 PM	Depends on how you read the ability. An effreti can grant up to three wishes once per day, meaning that a effreti can only grant wish(es) once per day, but when he does he can grant up to three at once. And S-P Abilities never require XP, so that trick won't work.
was_fired 12-04-03, 02:28 PM	Originally posted by Skrayper77 Wishes are 1 per day. 3 times to a single target. To get 3 wishes, he'd have to be there for 3 days, or be gated in 3 times. Assuming it's an Efreeti. That's more than 'contractual service' calls for right there. Best case scenario, they get one wish. Interesting I never noticed that. I guess that makes the solar a more powerful wish giver since they can cast an unlimited number of wishs on a person rather than three.
The Hanged Man 12-04-03, 02:45 PM	Originally posted by Racies once again, this is where the task falls to the players and the DM to find a reasonable middleground for the spells to be used. For Planar Ally, it's not even a middle ground. It's not a high-enough level spell to grant even 1 wish, let alone 3.
Skrayper77 12-04-03, 03:11 PM	"1/day—grant up to three wishes (to nongenies only)" True, you could also read that as up to three wishes each day. Another way of dealing with it is this... unless the character has knowledge: planes, HOW does he know this? Has he ever fought one that used this power? Also, if you like, the Genie could cast wish to leave said plane as well. Or you could say he's used up all his wishes. Checking the spell Gate, it never says the creature cannot leave. Not only that, but I think if you get an Efreeti, the others will notice, and then BANG, planeshift bout 20-30 more right next to the foolish caster.:smirk:
The Hanged Man 12-04-03, 03:53 PM	Originally posted by Skrayper77 Gate doesn't mean you've captured it, and also I'd rule that Nobles classify as unique, considering that they only make up 1% of the population,making them pretty unique. Noble Djinn are certainly not unique. That would be similar to saying 16th level human fighters are unique, b/c only a small portion of the human population. Gate should just be nerfed. Planar Binding needs to be controlled. Planar Ally just needs to be watched - the DM already has control.
Derren S. 12-04-03, 03:55 PM	Unique means for me only one exist (for example Bahamut/Tiamat (If you use the non-god version) and the tarrasque) And Gating a creature in is as good as capturing it because can command the creature to let it be captured by you and it can't resist.
Skrayper77 12-04-03, 04:03 PM	Originally posted by Derren S. Unique means for me only one exist (for example Bahamut/Tiamat (If you use the non-god version) and the tarrasque) And Gating a creature in is as good as capturing it because can command the creature to let it be captured by you and it can't resist. But it can leave. Nothing in the gate spell prevents the Efreeti from using it's Planeshift ability to leave.
Derren S. 12-04-03, 04:08 PM	Originally posted by Skrayper77 But it can leave. Nothing in the gate spell prevents the Efreeti from using it's Planeshift ability to leave. You controll the creature called, so when you don't command it to leave, it can't leave. "An uncontrolled beeing may return to its home plane at any time". And because the efreeti is controlled it can't return home.
Skrayper77 12-04-03, 04:37 PM	Originally posted by Derren S. You controll the creature called, so when you don't command it to leave, it can't leave. "An uncontrolled beeing may return to its home plane at any time". And because the efreeti is controlled it can't return home. No, that just implies that even if the creature doesn't have the ability to travel between planes, it can still go back if it wants. There's absolutely nothing that states that a controlled creature can take no actions unless commanded, save for those creatures with no intelligence. Efreeti's would probably have safeguards against this practice anyways. However, once again, I point out that nothing in the spell prevents the Efreeti from using it's natural abilities, save that being controlled implies that it would not actively attack it's summoner. If the player is *expecting* this, you could allow for him to roll for initiative, which then he could command it to not leave, which would prevent it from leaving.
The Hanged Man 12-04-03, 04:47 PM	I think you're reading too little into "controlled." Something that can just disappear at will is hardly "controlled" by the caster. Your method might make sense as a house rule, but it's not the Gate spell as written. A more sensible way to deal with Gate is to rule that granting wishes is a more involved service that requires bargaining, limit the called creature to neither HD or CR>caster (not that helpful, but at least something), and get rid of the instadomination effect for named creatures. Planar Binding, however, would allow the called creature to take actions. That's why the caster has to take precautions to stop the called creature from doing stuff before it does the caster's bidding.