Casting underwater [Archive] - Wizards Community

Casting underwater [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Arindor
07-22-05, 10:10 AM Hey can someone point me to the rules about casting under water? I was sure I had read it somewhere but now all I can find are some self contradicting rules about concentration checks about fire spells and that the water blocks line of effect from said fire spell.

So what I want to know is:

a) Can a spellcaster under water cast a spell with a verbal component
b) What difficulties do they have
c) Does silent spell negate these difficulties
d) Where the darn rules for this are
Unca_Laguna
07-22-05, 10:15 AM all i remember is that the requirements of a verbal component is that the person has to be able to speak in a clear voice, I wouldn't think that's possible underwater. on the other hand, being above water and casting INTO the water is allowed unless the spell description says it isn't (a la fog spells).
DrMorganes
07-22-05, 10:24 AM All I can do is quote from previous editions. You may want to check out Stormwrack - the third, latest and last (?) environmental sourcebook - to see if it contains updated rules. Anyhoo...

a) Can a spellcaster under water cast a spell with a verbal componentNot normally. In previous editions, however, there was a spell called Airy Water that essentially created a bubble of very humid air that stayed centered on the caster. Spells could be cast normally inside its area of effect.
b) What difficulties do they haveYou mean beside not being able to breathe? Assuming you get around this niggly little item, I'd say the following apply: Breathing water is not the same as being an aquatic native. Unless your spell states you can speak normally while submerged you cannot cast spells with a verbal component. Furthermore, casting a spell becomes a full-round action unless the caster is under a Freedom of Movement effect. Water resistance is a *****.
c) Does silent spell negate these difficultiesSince Silent Spell removes the verbal component from the equasion, it would allow you to cast any spell as long as you can fit it into that higher spell slot... Still have the trouble with full-round casting though.
d) Where the darn rules for this areFor 3.x, I have no idea.

Disclaimer: This is pulled from memory based on rules that are between 15 and 20 years old. Consider the information in this post to be a House Rule unless otherwise substantiated.
Escef
07-22-05, 10:29 AM Rules for water and underwater combat are in the DMG, pgs. 92-93. These do not cover casting.

I'd say that unless the character has some form of waterbreathing or a silent spell he won't be able to use spells with verbal components. And if he can't breath but can still cast I'd give him a concentration check to not botch his spell. (You try doing something mentally taxing while trying to figure out where your next breath is coming from.)

Of course, I'd waive all that for warforged characters (or undead).
Pax
07-22-05, 10:31 AM Well, FWIW - there's a feat, "Aquatic Spellcasting", in Lords of Madness that eliminates all penalties for casting in, into, or out of water. ^_^
scott644
07-22-05, 12:02 PM Or, one could play a bronze or gold dragon (yeah, high level, I know :cool: ) and bypass the issue altogether. :D
smileybob1
07-22-05, 12:18 PM there are no penalties for casting underwater with verbal components. water does not change you ability to speak, it just effects how the sound will travel. its not like a silence spell where sound does not exist. also srd if you need a reference:

AQUATIC TERRAIN
Aquatic terrain is the least hospitable to most PCs, because they can’t breathe there. Aquatic terrain doesn’t offer the variety that land terrain does. The ocean floor holds many marvels, including undersea analogues of any of the terrain elements described earlier in this section. But if characters find themselves in the water because they were bull rushed off the deck of a pirate ship, the tall kelp beds hundreds of feet below them don’t matter. Accordingly, these rules simply divide aquatic terrain into two categories: flowing water (such as streams and rivers) and nonflowing water (such as lakes and oceans).

Flowing Water: Large, placid rivers move at only a few miles per hour, so they function as still water for most purposes. But some rivers and streams are swifter; anything floating in them moves downstream at a speed of 10 to 40 feet per round. The fastest rapids send swimmers bobbing downstream at 60 to 90 feet per round. Fast rivers are always at least rough water (Swim DC 15), and whitewater rapids are stormy water (Swim DC 20). If a character is in moving water, move her downstream the indicated distance at the end of her turn. A character trying to maintain her position relative to the riverbank can spend some or all of her turn swimming upstream.

Swept Away: Characters swept away by a river moving 60 feet per round or faster must make DC 20 Swim checks every round to avoid going under. If a character gets a check result of 5 or more over the minimum necessary, he arrests his motion by catching a rock, tree limb, or bottom snag—he is no longer being carried along by the flow of the water. Escaping the rapids by reaching the bank requires three DC 20 Swim checks in a row. Characters arrested by a rock, limb, or snag can’t escape under their own power unless they strike out into the water and attempt to swim their way clear. Other characters can rescue them as if they were trapped in quicksand (described in Marsh Terrain, above).

Nonflowing Water: Lakes and oceans simply require a swim speed or successful Swim checks to move through (DC 10 in calm water, DC 15 in rough water, DC 20 in stormy water). Characters need a way to breathe if they’re underwater; failing that, they risk drowning. When underwater, characters can move in any direction as if they were flying with perfect maneuverability.

Stealth and Detection Underwater: How far you can see underwater depends on the water’s clarity. As a guideline, creatures can see 4d8×10 feet if the water is clear, and 1d8×10 feet if it’s murky. Moving water is always murky, unless it’s in a particularly large, slow-moving river.
It’s hard to find cover or concealment to hide underwater (except along the seafloor). Listen and Move Silently checks function normally underwater.
Invisibility: An invisible creature displaces water and leaves a visible, body-shaped “bubble” where the water was displaced. The creature still has concealment (20% miss chance), but not total concealment (50% miss chance).

Underwater Combat
Land-based creatures can have considerable difficulty when fighting in water. Water affects a creature’s Armor Class, attack rolls, damage, and movement. In some cases a creature’s opponents may get a bonus on attacks. The effects are summarized in the accompanying table. They apply whenever a character is swimming, walking in chestdeep water, or walking along the bottom.

Ranged Attacks Underwater: Thrown weapons are ineffective underwater, even when launched from land. Attacks with other ranged weapons take a –2 penalty on attack rolls for every 5 feet of water they pass through, in addition to the normal penalties for range.

Attacks from Land: Characters swimming, floating, or treading water on the surface, or wading in water at least chest deep, have improved cover (+8 bonus to AC, +4 bonus on Reflex saves) from opponents on land. Landbound opponents who have freedom of movement effects ignore this cover when making melee attacks against targets in the water. A completely submerged creature has total cover against opponents on land unless those opponents have freedom of movement effects. Magical effects are unaffected except for those that require attack rolls (which are treated like any other effects) and fire effects.

Fire: Nonmagical fire (including alchemist’s fire) does not burn underwater. Spells or spell-like effects with the fire descriptor are ineffective underwater unless the caster makes a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level). If the check succeeds, the spell creates a bubble of steam instead of its usual fiery effect, but otherwise the spell works as described. A supernatural fire effect is ineffective underwater unless its description states otherwise. The surface of a body of water blocks line of effect for any fire spell. If the caster has made a Spellcraft check to make the fire spell usable underwater, the surface still blocks the spell’s line of effect.
Escef
07-22-05, 12:55 PM there are no penalties for casting underwater with verbal components. water does not change you ability to speak, it just effects how the sound will travel. its not like a silence spell where sound does not exist. also srd if you need a reference:

The problem lies in that the rules mention nothing way one or other. And in most peoples' minds it is very different. Largely because it is. The current rule set is inadequet in this area. Maybe the new water/sea terrain book will have better official rules on this matter. In the meantime, we are left with either the text from the SRD (which is identicle to that in the DMG on the pages I mentioned), or house-rule something. My vote goes with house-ruling.
friedmad
07-22-05, 01:21 PM silent spell feat coupled with either the still spell feat or freedom of movement is required to cast underwater for spells with a S and V component. and even if you can cast the spell, it may not work (eg, fireball underwater, fog cloud, rays, etc.
smileybob1
07-22-05, 01:32 PM silent spell feat coupled with either the still spell feat or freedom of movement is required to cast underwater for spells with a S and V component. and even if you can cast the spell, it may not work (eg, fireball underwater, fog cloud, rays, etc.

it would be great if you could give a reference to this. currently this is not the rule. and fireball will work underwater with a successful spell craft check. rays work fine as well.
scott644
07-22-05, 03:29 PM The verbal component requires the caster to be able to correctly enunciate the words of the spell. For those who think this is normally possible underwater, go for a swim and attempt to recite a short poem and see what happens.
The Abominable Darkling
07-22-05, 03:52 PM That's not necessarily a problem. You can recite a poem under water just fine; you simply can't hear it very well thanks to the terbulence it causes. I suppose you could make an argument that spells need to hear their verbal components in some sense, but it's really just conjecture. In any case, I would personally go with the rule that you need a water breathing effect (or the ability to breath water naturally) to cast spells with a verbal component while under water.
smileybob1
07-22-05, 04:51 PM i guess for me i dont understand this arguement about having to breathe water or use silent spell. i was a swimmer for about 8 years of my life. i grew up in florida. i have been swimming since i was 6. talking underwater does not effect your pronunciation. i am trying to argue this on a real life experience, since that is appearently what everyone likes to make rulings from (even though the rules do not penalize underwater casters in this way).

why is everyone so bent on crippling underwater spell casters. i guess merfolk and sea elves should just give up magic :)

anyway, i dont understand why if the written rules do not penalize casters, why would you want to make a house rule that does so? do you think casters are somehow unbalanced in the ocean?"

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arindor 07-22-05, 10:10 AM	Hey can someone point me to the rules about casting under water? I was sure I had read it somewhere but now all I can find are some self contradicting rules about concentration checks about fire spells and that the water blocks line of effect from said fire spell. So what I want to know is: a) Can a spellcaster under water cast a spell with a verbal component b) What difficulties do they have c) Does silent spell negate these difficulties d) Where the darn rules for this are
Unca_Laguna 07-22-05, 10:15 AM	all i remember is that the requirements of a verbal component is that the person has to be able to speak in a clear voice, I wouldn't think that's possible underwater. on the other hand, being above water and casting INTO the water is allowed unless the spell description says it isn't (a la fog spells).
DrMorganes 07-22-05, 10:24 AM	All I can do is quote from previous editions. You may want to check out Stormwrack - the third, latest and last (?) environmental sourcebook - to see if it contains updated rules. Anyhoo... a) Can a spellcaster under water cast a spell with a verbal componentNot normally. In previous editions, however, there was a spell called Airy Water that essentially created a bubble of very humid air that stayed centered on the caster. Spells could be cast normally inside its area of effect. b) What difficulties do they haveYou mean beside not being able to breathe? Assuming you get around this niggly little item, I'd say the following apply: Breathing water is not the same as being an aquatic native. Unless your spell states you can speak normally while submerged you cannot cast spells with a verbal component. Furthermore, casting a spell becomes a full-round action unless the caster is under a Freedom of Movement effect. Water resistance is a *****. c) Does silent spell negate these difficultiesSince Silent Spell removes the verbal component from the equasion, it would allow you to cast any spell as long as you can fit it into that higher spell slot... Still have the trouble with full-round casting though. d) Where the darn rules for this areFor 3.x, I have no idea. Disclaimer: This is pulled from memory based on rules that are between 15 and 20 years old. Consider the information in this post to be a House Rule unless otherwise substantiated.
Escef 07-22-05, 10:29 AM	Rules for water and underwater combat are in the DMG, pgs. 92-93. These do not cover casting. I'd say that unless the character has some form of waterbreathing or a silent spell he won't be able to use spells with verbal components. And if he can't breath but can still cast I'd give him a concentration check to not botch his spell. (You try doing something mentally taxing while trying to figure out where your next breath is coming from.) Of course, I'd waive all that for warforged characters (or undead).
Pax 07-22-05, 10:31 AM	Well, FWIW - there's a feat, "Aquatic Spellcasting", in Lords of Madness that eliminates all penalties for casting in, into, or out of water. ^_^
scott644 07-22-05, 12:02 PM	Or, one could play a bronze or gold dragon (yeah, high level, I know :cool: ) and bypass the issue altogether. :D
smileybob1 07-22-05, 12:18 PM	there are no penalties for casting underwater with verbal components. water does not change you ability to speak, it just effects how the sound will travel. its not like a silence spell where sound does not exist. also srd if you need a reference: AQUATIC TERRAIN Aquatic terrain is the least hospitable to most PCs, because they can’t breathe there. Aquatic terrain doesn’t offer the variety that land terrain does. The ocean floor holds many marvels, including undersea analogues of any of the terrain elements described earlier in this section. But if characters find themselves in the water because they were bull rushed off the deck of a pirate ship, the tall kelp beds hundreds of feet below them don’t matter. Accordingly, these rules simply divide aquatic terrain into two categories: flowing water (such as streams and rivers) and nonflowing water (such as lakes and oceans). Flowing Water: Large, placid rivers move at only a few miles per hour, so they function as still water for most purposes. But some rivers and streams are swifter; anything floating in them moves downstream at a speed of 10 to 40 feet per round. The fastest rapids send swimmers bobbing downstream at 60 to 90 feet per round. Fast rivers are always at least rough water (Swim DC 15), and whitewater rapids are stormy water (Swim DC 20). If a character is in moving water, move her downstream the indicated distance at the end of her turn. A character trying to maintain her position relative to the riverbank can spend some or all of her turn swimming upstream. Swept Away: Characters swept away by a river moving 60 feet per round or faster must make DC 20 Swim checks every round to avoid going under. If a character gets a check result of 5 or more over the minimum necessary, he arrests his motion by catching a rock, tree limb, or bottom snag—he is no longer being carried along by the flow of the water. Escaping the rapids by reaching the bank requires three DC 20 Swim checks in a row. Characters arrested by a rock, limb, or snag can’t escape under their own power unless they strike out into the water and attempt to swim their way clear. Other characters can rescue them as if they were trapped in quicksand (described in Marsh Terrain, above). Nonflowing Water: Lakes and oceans simply require a swim speed or successful Swim checks to move through (DC 10 in calm water, DC 15 in rough water, DC 20 in stormy water). Characters need a way to breathe if they’re underwater; failing that, they risk drowning. When underwater, characters can move in any direction as if they were flying with perfect maneuverability. Stealth and Detection Underwater: How far you can see underwater depends on the water’s clarity. As a guideline, creatures can see 4d8×10 feet if the water is clear, and 1d8×10 feet if it’s murky. Moving water is always murky, unless it’s in a particularly large, slow-moving river. It’s hard to find cover or concealment to hide underwater (except along the seafloor). Listen and Move Silently checks function normally underwater. Invisibility: An invisible creature displaces water and leaves a visible, body-shaped “bubble” where the water was displaced. The creature still has concealment (20% miss chance), but not total concealment (50% miss chance). Underwater Combat Land-based creatures can have considerable difficulty when fighting in water. Water affects a creature’s Armor Class, attack rolls, damage, and movement. In some cases a creature’s opponents may get a bonus on attacks. The effects are summarized in the accompanying table. They apply whenever a character is swimming, walking in chestdeep water, or walking along the bottom. Ranged Attacks Underwater: Thrown weapons are ineffective underwater, even when launched from land. Attacks with other ranged weapons take a –2 penalty on attack rolls for every 5 feet of water they pass through, in addition to the normal penalties for range. Attacks from Land: Characters swimming, floating, or treading water on the surface, or wading in water at least chest deep, have improved cover (+8 bonus to AC, +4 bonus on Reflex saves) from opponents on land. Landbound opponents who have freedom of movement effects ignore this cover when making melee attacks against targets in the water. A completely submerged creature has total cover against opponents on land unless those opponents have freedom of movement effects. Magical effects are unaffected except for those that require attack rolls (which are treated like any other effects) and fire effects. Fire: Nonmagical fire (including alchemist’s fire) does not burn underwater. Spells or spell-like effects with the fire descriptor are ineffective underwater unless the caster makes a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level). If the check succeeds, the spell creates a bubble of steam instead of its usual fiery effect, but otherwise the spell works as described. A supernatural fire effect is ineffective underwater unless its description states otherwise. The surface of a body of water blocks line of effect for any fire spell. If the caster has made a Spellcraft check to make the fire spell usable underwater, the surface still blocks the spell’s line of effect.
Escef 07-22-05, 12:55 PM	there are no penalties for casting underwater with verbal components. water does not change you ability to speak, it just effects how the sound will travel. its not like a silence spell where sound does not exist. also srd if you need a reference: The problem lies in that the rules mention nothing way one or other. And in most peoples' minds it is very different. Largely because it is. The current rule set is inadequet in this area. Maybe the new water/sea terrain book will have better official rules on this matter. In the meantime, we are left with either the text from the SRD (which is identicle to that in the DMG on the pages I mentioned), or house-rule something. My vote goes with house-ruling.
friedmad 07-22-05, 01:21 PM	silent spell feat coupled with either the still spell feat or freedom of movement is required to cast underwater for spells with a S and V component. and even if you can cast the spell, it may not work (eg, fireball underwater, fog cloud, rays, etc.
smileybob1 07-22-05, 01:32 PM	silent spell feat coupled with either the still spell feat or freedom of movement is required to cast underwater for spells with a S and V component. and even if you can cast the spell, it may not work (eg, fireball underwater, fog cloud, rays, etc. it would be great if you could give a reference to this. currently this is not the rule. and fireball will work underwater with a successful spell craft check. rays work fine as well.
scott644 07-22-05, 03:29 PM	The verbal component requires the caster to be able to correctly enunciate the words of the spell. For those who think this is normally possible underwater, go for a swim and attempt to recite a short poem and see what happens.
The Abominable Darkling 07-22-05, 03:52 PM	That's not necessarily a problem. You can recite a poem under water just fine; you simply can't hear it very well thanks to the terbulence it causes. I suppose you could make an argument that spells need to hear their verbal components in some sense, but it's really just conjecture. In any case, I would personally go with the rule that you need a water breathing effect (or the ability to breath water naturally) to cast spells with a verbal component while under water.
smileybob1 07-22-05, 04:51 PM	i guess for me i dont understand this arguement about having to breathe water or use silent spell. i was a swimmer for about 8 years of my life. i grew up in florida. i have been swimming since i was 6. talking underwater does not effect your pronunciation. i am trying to argue this on a real life experience, since that is appearently what everyone likes to make rulings from (even though the rules do not penalize underwater casters in this way). why is everyone so bent on crippling underwater spell casters. i guess merfolk and sea elves should just give up magic :) anyway, i dont understand why if the written rules do not penalize casters, why would you want to make a house rule that does so? do you think casters are somehow unbalanced in the ocean?"