Post/Author/DateTime	Post
throatshot 01-13-04, 08:58 AM	A player in the game I run has made it known that he wants to try to claim a castle the PCs cleared out. The party has 2 7th, 3 5th, and 1 4th-level character. What I'm trying to figure out is how to set it up so they have a chance, but without just giving it to them. He's willing to use his Profession (lawyer) and Forgery to make whatever documents are needed to seem legit. Since it's kind of rare for my players to even put ranks in Profession, let alone lots of them, I want to provide an opportunity to use it in a roleplaying setting. The wizard who took over the castle to begin with killed the previous owner (but the adventure never said whom, and I didn't give it much thought). I was thinking of having him make a Profession (lawyer) check to find out who the owner was and that taxes are due to the kingdom within a few months (probably something like 10,000 gp; it's not that big of a castle). He would also need to use Forgery to re-register the deed in his name. After that, he's free of taxes for a year, but he'll start having upkeep costs assuming he actually does anything but let the castle rot. I see a roleplaying opportunity in the future when an heir to the first owner shows up wondering where his uncle/cousin/father is and wonders why these people are claiming his inheritance as his own. Do you see anything wrong with this? Too easy? Too strict?
Rugraknot 01-13-04, 09:45 AM	In my non-oriental campaigns which are my focused on laws and rights this is my rule: If they cant take it from you its yours!!! They can't Force you to pay tax on it if you kill the Tax man!!! I say that having the rightful heir show up later is good but unless he is a Epic Level (and if you make him one you are the worst DM ever) or he come home with an army the castle is still theirs both in Reality and on Paper. They can kill him for tresspasing if he trys anything. PS: The thing about the Worst DM ever is just because I had an old DM who had at least 2 Epic level NC living in each 100 person village so if we even strayed from his railroading for one second we were dead and to make it worse it was an evil campaign how are we going to take overthe town if we are elvel 1 and epics live in it!
throatshot 01-13-04, 10:03 AM	I'm thinking a cloth merchant, but...an Epic Level Cloth Merchant! OK, so I'm kidding. Never included an epic level character in anything. I doubt I'd even need to come up with stats, but if I did, it would be Commoner, Expert or Aristocrat. Single digit levels, definitely. I can't stand it when DM's railroad players.
torgo 01-13-04, 10:19 AM	A party of six PCs could very well hold off a besieging army, if it comes to that. Maybe the PCs could declare fealty and homage to the local lord in exchange for the castle. As long as he thought the PCs would be loyal and pay taxes, it shouldn't be a problem. He could declare the PCs as lords of that castle until they die. Maybe the one player's lawyer skills could come in handy in getting out of taxes, military service, etc. I don't know how keen a baron would be on trusting adventurers, though.
Wayward Son 01-13-04, 10:23 AM	Hmmmm, interesting . . . very ingenious of the player, too. I'd hate to see such initiative unduly punished. (Unless, of course, the PC is Good, in which case he's treading happily toward an alignment shift for all the legal legerdemain.) First, you need to decide what sort of "kingdom" this is and exactly what sort of property rights a person can claim. Private property is a relatively new concept, after all. In a feudal monarachy, all land belongs to the monarch, who parsels out portions to his/her feudal lords to control in his/her name. Those lords can then appoint lesser lords who get a portion of their land, and so forth. In such a system, typically, only nobles can "own" land, and even that ownership is at the monarch's sufferance. The mass of people are tenants and/or serfs, bound to the land and paying their local lord in goods and services for the priviledge of living there. In this system, the PCs would have to seek an audience with the moanarch or a local representative (a Duke or Baron, perhaps) and request permission to retain the castle. Success will depend on a lot of Diplomacy. This same system would work for a tightly-controlled theocracy. If it's a republic, democracy or other such representative government, or a monarachy with a stronger, seperate judiciary to which even the monarch must answer, then there will likely be a legal recourse for the PCs to apply for ownership of the abandoned castle, with their effort to clear and control the space as their claim to it. There might be a probationary period where they may control the space while a hearing is held and other claimants are found and heard, ending with the PCs' grant of title, or eviction, depending on the claims heard. This might be where your lawyer PC would shine the brightest, arguing his case before a magistrate. If the land is under a less-lawful society, the castle may be clearly theirs because they had the force to take and hold it. Of course, if this is the case, the lawyer wasted a lot of skill points, and I don't get the feeling you want to do that. If you do go this route, there may still be some government to contact, but he should be wary of others trying to trick them out of the land, or sending an army to claim it for themselves. In any event, a returning heir could be a large problem. Depending on how it's played and what system you ultimately adopt, the end result could be anything from the heir's quiet murder and disappearance (if the PCs are evil), to the PCs accepting his claim and staying on as retainers of the wealthy noble. If he insists on forging the needed documents, there could be a lengthy court battle to settle the dispute. Find out what direction all of your players want the campaign to take, and let that be your guide. Let us know how it turns out.
Morka 01-13-04, 11:48 AM	Is there some serfs, commoners, farmers coming with this castle? Usually, a castle is built to protect a small population from invaders or raiders. What if suddenly the local population need to be protected ? How evil are your characters?
throatshot 01-13-04, 12:29 PM	Whatever was in the castle originally was killed or ran off, because of the wizard and her minions. The only buildings still standing in the castle itself are the stables and keep. Now that the party has killed the wizard and most of her minions, the rest ran off. It's a rather far away place. The nearest town is several days' ride away, and it's not really an ideal location for anyone but someone who wants privacy. It's a great fixer-upper for adventurers. The basic background I came up with: The castle was owned by a cloth merchant from Telflamm (in Thesk, the campaign location). It was his retirement home. He left his cloth emporium to his nephew in Telflamm. I don't use the alignment system, but I do insist on players playing generally heroic characters (no burning down peasant villages for the fun of it). Probably CG or CN would be the closest you could tie the party to an alignment, based on their past actions. In other words, they aren't opposed to outright theft, but they aren't likely to murder a man in cold blood because he's in the way. I used some of your suggestions, and now they're trying to decide whether to go the forgery route or talk with the nephew and make a deal of some sort. Off the subject: I heartily recommend a private message board for gaming groups. If I hadn't gone ahead and let this part of the game take place OOG (with the Irony Dice Roller used for the Profession check), I would've been scrambling come Friday when they decided to go talk to the nephew/spy him out isntead of starting their next adventure. Now I have time to come up with some really good roleplaying encounters.
Morka 01-13-04, 01:13 PM	There is still one obscure point in your background: is the wizard and the cloth merchant are the same person, or did the evil wizard killed the merchant to steal his castle? If the former, the nephew is right to want a revenge for the PCs. But if the later, the nephew should be thankful to the party to have avenge his uncle, and since he lives in the city and can't dare about the castle, he could let it to the PCs. Unless he is either stupid or outrageously upset for the murder of his uncle...
throatshot 01-13-04, 02:41 PM	Oh, sorry, wasn't clear on that. The PCs know the cloth merchant and the wizard aren't the same. They've been chasing this wizard for several months and across two countries. You have a good idea about the nephew not caring about the castle. It's a good 15 days away from Telflamm, which is basically the hub of the whole country (at least according to those who live there). I'm thinking he'll probably not be too interested in it, and if they heroes can convince him that they took care of the person who killed his uncle (and weren't responsible for his death), he'll probably be willing to give them some rights to it. But I think that being a merchant, he'll want some share in it just in case it's worth something. I'm thinking he'll share their names on the deed in exchange for a yearly maintenance fee (something that will leave him comfortable in Telflamm, like maybe 3000 gp a year or less with a good Diplomacy check, plus a fair share of the taxes), and his approval is required before they sell it (with him getting a share).
Darkhunter 01-13-04, 03:32 PM	Buy it from the king buy paying back taxes--then keep up with the taxes.... This gives goodwill from the folks who would be enforcing ownership issues--'the wizzards was probable delinquint in paying tax (maybe even sent some tax collectors back as frogs or something).
Prospero 01-13-04, 10:01 PM	If they cleared it out, I'd let them keep it. However, instead of just charging them cash for the keep or buying the rights to it from the nephew, who is still the legal heir to it, he has this little problem that some intrepid adventurers could handle for him. Solve the problem, get the keep, free, clear, and legal. Plus maybe a little cash, or goods/services for renovations.
Titar 01-13-04, 10:27 PM	Well.... if the area is lawless enough that the Wizard could take it in the first place, there is a good chance the characters now more or less own it no matter what anyone else says. Heck, if the previous owner's relatives were so all fired up about getting it, why didn't THEY kick out the Wizard AND if the local Law cares, why didn't THEY kick out the Wizard. Plus since the party has proved itself to be more powerful than the Wizard.... Legitimizing their hold over the land probably has more to do with what they plan to do with the Castle and their relation to the local Lord. A local Lord would in theory be very happy to have a powerful party base themselves at some corner of his kingdom clearing out monsters but would want the following in return. 1. Sworn loyalty, to the point of doing the Lord occasional services. 2. That they don't recruit an army that could threaten the Lord. 3. That they take the responsibility to keep the castle clear so it doesn't become the home of some other threat. Either defending it themselves, or paying someone (possibly the Lord himself) to defend it for them. Over all, ask yourself what is the local rule "getting" out of the deal.