Casual gamers or just dimwits? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Casual gamers or just dimwits? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
porker
08-20-04, 06:33 PM Every time I go to play the game, I end up listening to some type of rhetoric about " We've been playing since 1980, we're veterans.. blah blah blah."

We play once a week for four or 5 hours, but ummm.... I look at the other players, and I know the lights are on, but I don't think anyone is home. 3rd Edition has been out for quite some time, and we've been there from the start, but simple day 1 basics just aren't there.

Examples

Wizard casts a spell, and I ask what the DC is. I need to explain EVERY WEEK how you find out a spell's DC.

"I only moved my normal movment so I get to make my full attack"

" I'm gonna attack the back of his miniature so I can sneak attack him"

Scroll costs? Wonderous item costs? Spell Resistance checks? Don't ask.

Flanking, prone, grappled? I'd be better off speaking German.

I sat down, I thought about it. I came to the conclusion that I really did like first grade, but spending 4 years there would be a little boring. Keeping day 1 tactics and day 1 questions and never progressing is getting boring.

So I'm their DM, what did I do? I killed them. Not unfairly, I just didn't pull any punches, and I took what was in the module and I played the monsters the way I would play my character to the best of my ability and they lost.

Rather than being like. Okay, roll up new guys. I sent them on their way to hell, (they're all evil, wich is nice) and right before they got into the gates of hell they ended up in Hextor's War accadamy.

There were 8 doors and in each one they learn some new lesson. One was about flanking, one was about working together, one was about ambushes, prep spells, combat maneuvers other than just hitting the guy with your sword, all that stuff. I was even nice, if they died, they just turned into ghosts until the next day and they could rejoin their group.

You know what I'm hearing to this day?

Wizard casts a spell, and I ask what the DC is. I need to explain EVERY WEEK how you find out a spell's DC.

"I only moved my normal movment so I get to make my full attack"

" I'm gonna attack the back of his miniature so I can sneak attack him"

Scroll costs? Wonderous item costs? Spell Resistance checks? Don't ask.

Flanking, prone, grappled? I'd be better off speaking German.

Are they retarded? Are they just casual gamers and that's the way they are?... What's a DM to do?
LukiLoki
08-20-04, 07:04 PM Uhhh,
You know these people out of game, right?
I mean, are they... challenged in any way? Did they graduate from junior high yet?

Because that sounds like a bummer. You've gone out on a limb to "educate" them, and they still don't understand the rules, and they didn't find any motivation from a TPK?

I play with some "veteran casual gamers" as well, casual just cause we don't have a lot of time to play. But we're all pretty much up to speed on the basics at least.

I'm sorry. This post is useless. I don't know what to say...
Salla
08-20-04, 07:15 PM Do they play lots of other, different games? I've occassionally had problems with players who get rules and terms confused from game to game.

Past that ... they're just not paying attention or not really interested. I know someone who keeps trying to drag his friends into gaming, but they really aren't interested (of course, he's not that good of a DM, which isn't helping), so they aren't paying enough attention to learn the details.
DwarvinJedi
08-20-04, 07:18 PM My questions:
1: How old are they?
2: Do they like gaming?
3: Do they like D&D?
4: Do they like Role-playing more than Roll-playing?
5: Do they own the PHB?
6: How smart are they? ( in your opinion, I don't care about IQ, or anything like that?
7: Do they play lots of video games?
sub-question: What kinds of games?
and finally 8: are they your out of game friends?
Rian Lightblade
08-20-04, 07:25 PM Oh man!!! I feel for you. I have a couple in my group that are like that as well. What I've done is make cheats. A single page with the formulas on how to figure out most stats and rolls. It took about five hours but has saved at least 40. You might want to try that.

By the way, I've been playing since 1980 (well 1985), I'm a veteran.. blah blah blah :D
PenderGrass
08-20-04, 08:22 PM Well, I see where the problem lies - and it is YOU.

That is right, I said you are at fault here.

Why?

You are coddlig them too much.

How to solve it?

Next time you ask for a Spell's DC and they ask what it is - look right back at that person and say:

"Hey, you know what Joe? Why don't YOU tell me what your spell's DC is? Here is the PHB, I am gonna go get some food at Taco Hell, when I get back maybe you can enlighten me.... if not I know there are some cool movies on tonight....."

And then walk out - maybe even inviting some of the other Players to go with you (and then assure them that they should also know their PCs).

When you come back you will either have some Players that are ready to play - or an empty den.

You are welcome to add your own diplomatic twists to this - but without making them do the work, they will never learn.
Lxarth
08-20-04, 08:25 PM I like to at least think of myself as a Veteran...except I was never in a war...oh well....sucks for me.

My uncle (used) to play D&D with me...he was like that all the time too...from 2nd and now 3rd...he just didnt want to get it. I think the problem is "you cant teach and old dog new tricks". I dont think you can cure them of this.

I say the next time you are like..."whats the DC to save against your lightning bolt"...and they are like "um....idonno"...say "ok, he makes his save" and dont even roll for it. Kill them and make them sit out to make a new character.
trapspringer
08-20-04, 08:40 PM Noooo, that is completely unfair.

Just set all the unnamed dc's to 10.

Oh, and you could pick up a copry of UA, and employ the facing varient. Then the back stabbing would actually work.
Lxarth
08-20-04, 09:39 PM Why is that unfair...I think its unfair to the DM who has to do EVERYTHING!

I say auto-save.

but then again...no rolling could cause a temper tantrum from your 'veteran' players
Aliquid
08-20-04, 10:03 PM The original poster registered in August 2004.... this is the only post he has made... makes vague insulting comments about "vetran players", and playing styles.

I don't know if we should really take him seriously. I'm not going to go so far as to say "troll". He might just be a new member that decided to vent on his first post... but still it is a bit suspect
Aliquid
08-20-04, 10:06 PM Originally posted by Rian Lightblade
Oh man!!! I feel for you. I have a couple in my group that are like that as well. What I've done is make cheats. A single page with the formulas on how to figure out most stats and rolls. It took about five hours but has saved at least 40. You might want to try that.

By the way, I've been playing since 1980 (well 1985), I'm a veteran.. blah blah blah :D

I've actually made custom colour coded character sheets. When I have one of those players....

Me: Roll your Reflex save
Player: How do I do that again?
Me: Savings throws are blue, roll the one that says "Reflex"
Drachasor
08-21-04, 01:16 AM I have to agree with the person that said you need to stop helping them as much. As hard as it is to do, sometimes you just need to tell them to figure it out on their own.

However, tell them ahead of time you are going to do this, and tell them to read through the PHB (or SRD if they don't have the PHB) to prepare for next session. Then if they ask, tell them they have done it before and it isn't that hard. Heck, most of the stuff is explained on the character sheet.

You can always make them a cheat-sheet too, and then tell them to look it up there.

You can also ask them why they don't seem to care, and tell them it is very hard on you.

-Drachasor
Lxarth
08-21-04, 01:32 AM What does it mean when you say "troll"?
Drachasor
08-21-04, 01:49 AM Originally posted by Lxarth
What does it mean when you say "troll"?

It's message-board talk in this case. A Troll is someone that posts a delibrately inflammatory comment merely to get people to respond with emotion and anger. (In contrast to a Flamer that retorts to things with anger and personal insults).

-Drachasor
Kilsek of Sheverash
08-21-04, 01:54 AM I yell "CRACK THE SPINE!!" when a player is clueless on a rule he should know direcly related to his character.

It's become a funny kind of thing now - everyone yells it at everyone when they screw up and don't know what the rules are for something...lol So they go and crack the spine of their handy-dandy wow-I-really-do-have-one-huh PHB, those lazy bastards!

Which is great, bc it puts the focus in a fun way on the simple fact that Players have ONE responsibility: to read and understand the PHB.

Having said that, it's definitely overwhelming for many newer players. Coaching them is fine - for a while, not forever.

For veteran gamers trying to unlearn a previous edition - same thing as newbies, but you should be a little tougher on them. CRACK THE SPINE!!!

And to be fair, I've gotten the same thing yelled at me on the rare occassions I've played... lol Needless to say, I quickly do exactly that and I try very hard not to get blasted with it ever again! :D
Methos of Aundair
08-21-04, 09:13 AM You might first check to see if they are playing any other games, much like what Salla asked. I’ve found players often get confused with gaming rules from the different systems. Usually though, if this is the case, the player tends to be a hardcore gamer and not a casual one.

Another thing, did you begin at 1st level? If these players are as confused as you say they are maybe you should start over from 1st level, that way they are able to learn the game from the beginning and better understand the characters capabilities.

As to the:

" We've been playing since 1980, we're veterans.. blah blah blah."

…remark, the group I play in and DM in has an average age of 35. The least experienced of our group began playing DnD when it was AD&D (1st edition). Never have I heard them state they are veterans. I have heard them rant about all the previous edition books that now sit forgotten in a box at the back of their closet. But veteran remarks, no. How old is your group?

As to this being his first post, give him a chance. I spent several months reading this board before I ever posted, and once I did it was in relation to something I disagreed with and started a new thread to find everyones’ opinions. I'm sure I didn't look to good there either. Not to say I don't wonder myself, but at least give him a chance.
Lxarth
08-21-04, 11:01 AM It's message-board talk in this case. A Troll is someone that posts a delibrately inflammatory comment merely to get people to respond with emotion and anger. (In contrast to a Flamer that retorts to things with anger and personal insults).

:weep:I feel so...dirty...:weep:

Nice explination...now I feel like im 8...but thats ok, ill just go shot a passing car with a paintball MARKER
DMFTodd
08-21-04, 11:42 AM Been playing for over a year with the same group, every week, they've all played much longer than a year; and every week I, as well, have to explain a spell DC to most of them.

In my case, I've decided that my players are, in fact, retarded and there is nothing I can do about it.
Derren S.
08-21-04, 12:05 PM I also had a group of players like these. After one year of gaming they finally got the basics but in the following two years never advanced beyone that.

The reason? They didn't want to learn the rules.
quote: "Rules are something for the DM. I say what I want to do and the DM tells me how this translates into rules.

They finally dropped me because I was to much a rules lawyer and they couldn't do realistic stuff in my games like knocking out experienced soldiers instantly by throwing a stone at their head and I didn't allow theri creative arm protectors +5 and knee protectors +5 and by this choked their creativity.
porker
08-21-04, 04:58 PM I see some nice responses. Some I can use and some I can't. I really thought that I was going to get posts like " Well, you're just a jerk." Or " It's just a game".

Anyway, the people I play with range in age from 21 - 35. There are 8 of us. All of them are either in collage or have graduated with at least a BA/BS. Shows the quality of a collage education now doesn't it? As far as relationships, one is my brother, and two are close friends, other than that I can say I 'like' the other ones as people but we aren't quite buddy buddy. Three of us have been playing since Dungeons and Dragons was a stapled together rag with the dragon and the guy with the golden spear going at it. One of the players is BRAND new to tabletop Dungeons and Dragons but has played most of the computer games that have to do with DnD.

It's a good point that unlearning one edition to the next might be hard. Not that they put too much emphisis on learning those ones either, but stoneskin for example has a bit hard to beat into them, and the 250 gold pieces seldom gets paid.

As for what level we started at, we did start at level 1. We got one group of characters up to level 18 or so, and then we started over, epic seemed kind of boring, and 3.5 was out for a month or so before we got to use it.

From what I've read, I feel better knowing that I'm not the only one who is treated like the DM handles the rules and the players just say what they want to do. Not that I agree with it, just nice to know I'm not alone.

As far as making cheat sheets and things like that, a lot of those are in the 3.5 DMG/PHB's. Back in 3.0 I did make some of those, but, that's just another sheet to loose. Also, the basic character sheet has a spot for spell DC's .

I'd like to say the players not knowing the mechanics was the only thing that I was angry about. I know the answers and while it would speed the game up quite a bit only half of my problem is things like that. I hear complaints about " I just want a straight up fight", but at level 13, if the monsters just "stright up fight" a party of 7 pc's the exp is going to be insane as is the treasure and... quite frankly that's boring to me as a DM. Monsters with reach are going to trip charging fighters, monsters that don't use weapons are going to try and disarm people and take their item and possibly ise it aganst them, and enemy casters are going to do things other than just cast fireballs non stop. I just feel that monsters with an int over 12 are smarter than I am, and I should put up the best fight I can. But if I do that, they'll all die.

I'm sure it's going to be a gradual process. I went so far as to give one of the 'tacticlly gifted" players a crown that lets him make a suggestion to each of the players before the combat round, so they could act more as a uniform group, and if they took the suggestion, they wouild get +2 to their attack rolls, damage rolls and skill checks and a few othter things. Only thing is, that I think that player got bogged down, not sure. I do wholeheartedly like the "crack the spine" coment.

As for being a troll, I'm not sure this qualifies as the most debateable topic, but maybe you have a point. I've been here before, but I got a new computer and making a new screen name was a bit easier, my other screen name was Gorescream.
Aliquid
08-21-04, 07:17 PM Originally posted by porker
As for being a troll, I'm not sure this qualifies as the most debateable topic, but maybe you have a point. I've been here before, but I got a new computer and making a new screen name was a bit easier, my other screen name was Gorescream.

I should note that my post said that I wouldn’t go so far as to suggest you were a troll, I just thought the post was a bit suspect.

Even so, now that I have read your second post I have to apologise for even suggesting suspicion. I have been dealing with some annoying trolls on some different boards lately, and I must just be a bit trigger happy on the subject. I hope I didn’t offend.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
porker 08-20-04, 06:33 PM	Every time I go to play the game, I end up listening to some type of rhetoric about " We've been playing since 1980, we're veterans.. blah blah blah." We play once a week for four or 5 hours, but ummm.... I look at the other players, and I know the lights are on, but I don't think anyone is home. 3rd Edition has been out for quite some time, and we've been there from the start, but simple day 1 basics just aren't there. Examples Wizard casts a spell, and I ask what the DC is. I need to explain EVERY WEEK how you find out a spell's DC. "I only moved my normal movment so I get to make my full attack" " I'm gonna attack the back of his miniature so I can sneak attack him" Scroll costs? Wonderous item costs? Spell Resistance checks? Don't ask. Flanking, prone, grappled? I'd be better off speaking German. I sat down, I thought about it. I came to the conclusion that I really did like first grade, but spending 4 years there would be a little boring. Keeping day 1 tactics and day 1 questions and never progressing is getting boring. So I'm their DM, what did I do? I killed them. Not unfairly, I just didn't pull any punches, and I took what was in the module and I played the monsters the way I would play my character to the best of my ability and they lost. Rather than being like. Okay, roll up new guys. I sent them on their way to hell, (they're all evil, wich is nice) and right before they got into the gates of hell they ended up in Hextor's War accadamy. There were 8 doors and in each one they learn some new lesson. One was about flanking, one was about working together, one was about ambushes, prep spells, combat maneuvers other than just hitting the guy with your sword, all that stuff. I was even nice, if they died, they just turned into ghosts until the next day and they could rejoin their group. You know what I'm hearing to this day? Wizard casts a spell, and I ask what the DC is. I need to explain EVERY WEEK how you find out a spell's DC. "I only moved my normal movment so I get to make my full attack" " I'm gonna attack the back of his miniature so I can sneak attack him" Scroll costs? Wonderous item costs? Spell Resistance checks? Don't ask. Flanking, prone, grappled? I'd be better off speaking German. Are they retarded? Are they just casual gamers and that's the way they are?... What's a DM to do?
LukiLoki 08-20-04, 07:04 PM	Uhhh, You know these people out of game, right? I mean, are they... challenged in any way? Did they graduate from junior high yet? Because that sounds like a bummer. You've gone out on a limb to "educate" them, and they still don't understand the rules, and they didn't find any motivation from a TPK? I play with some "veteran casual gamers" as well, casual just cause we don't have a lot of time to play. But we're all pretty much up to speed on the basics at least. I'm sorry. This post is useless. I don't know what to say...
Salla 08-20-04, 07:15 PM	Do they play lots of other, different games? I've occassionally had problems with players who get rules and terms confused from game to game. Past that ... they're just not paying attention or not really interested. I know someone who keeps trying to drag his friends into gaming, but they really aren't interested (of course, he's not that good of a DM, which isn't helping), so they aren't paying enough attention to learn the details.
DwarvinJedi 08-20-04, 07:18 PM	My questions: 1: How old are they? 2: Do they like gaming? 3: Do they like D&D? 4: Do they like Role-playing more than Roll-playing? 5: Do they own the PHB? 6: How smart are they? ( in your opinion, I don't care about IQ, or anything like that? 7: Do they play lots of video games? sub-question: What kinds of games? and finally 8: are they your out of game friends?
Rian Lightblade 08-20-04, 07:25 PM	Oh man!!! I feel for you. I have a couple in my group that are like that as well. What I've done is make cheats. A single page with the formulas on how to figure out most stats and rolls. It took about five hours but has saved at least 40. You might want to try that. By the way, I've been playing since 1980 (well 1985), I'm a veteran.. blah blah blah :D
PenderGrass 08-20-04, 08:22 PM	Well, I see where the problem lies - and it is YOU. That is right, I said you are at fault here. Why? You are coddlig them too much. How to solve it? Next time you ask for a Spell's DC and they ask what it is - look right back at that person and say: "Hey, you know what Joe? Why don't YOU tell me what your spell's DC is? Here is the PHB, I am gonna go get some food at Taco Hell, when I get back maybe you can enlighten me.... if not I know there are some cool movies on tonight....." And then walk out - maybe even inviting some of the other Players to go with you (and then assure them that they should also know their PCs). When you come back you will either have some Players that are ready to play - or an empty den. You are welcome to add your own diplomatic twists to this - but without making them do the work, they will never learn.
Lxarth 08-20-04, 08:25 PM	I like to at least think of myself as a Veteran...except I was never in a war...oh well....sucks for me. My uncle (used) to play D&D with me...he was like that all the time too...from 2nd and now 3rd...he just didnt want to get it. I think the problem is "you cant teach and old dog new tricks". I dont think you can cure them of this. I say the next time you are like..."whats the DC to save against your lightning bolt"...and they are like "um....idonno"...say "ok, he makes his save" and dont even roll for it. Kill them and make them sit out to make a new character.
trapspringer 08-20-04, 08:40 PM	Noooo, that is completely unfair. Just set all the unnamed dc's to 10. Oh, and you could pick up a copry of UA, and employ the facing varient. Then the back stabbing would actually work.
Lxarth 08-20-04, 09:39 PM	Why is that unfair...I think its unfair to the DM who has to do EVERYTHING! I say auto-save. but then again...no rolling could cause a temper tantrum from your 'veteran' players
Aliquid 08-20-04, 10:03 PM	The original poster registered in August 2004.... this is the only post he has made... makes vague insulting comments about "vetran players", and playing styles. I don't know if we should really take him seriously. I'm not going to go so far as to say "troll". He might just be a new member that decided to vent on his first post... but still it is a bit suspect
Aliquid 08-20-04, 10:06 PM	Originally posted by Rian Lightblade Oh man!!! I feel for you. I have a couple in my group that are like that as well. What I've done is make cheats. A single page with the formulas on how to figure out most stats and rolls. It took about five hours but has saved at least 40. You might want to try that. By the way, I've been playing since 1980 (well 1985), I'm a veteran.. blah blah blah :D I've actually made custom colour coded character sheets. When I have one of those players.... Me: Roll your Reflex save Player: How do I do that again? Me: Savings throws are blue, roll the one that says "Reflex"
Drachasor 08-21-04, 01:16 AM	I have to agree with the person that said you need to stop helping them as much. As hard as it is to do, sometimes you just need to tell them to figure it out on their own. However, tell them ahead of time you are going to do this, and tell them to read through the PHB (or SRD if they don't have the PHB) to prepare for next session. Then if they ask, tell them they have done it before and it isn't that hard. Heck, most of the stuff is explained on the character sheet. You can always make them a cheat-sheet too, and then tell them to look it up there. You can also ask them why they don't seem to care, and tell them it is very hard on you. -Drachasor
Lxarth 08-21-04, 01:32 AM	What does it mean when you say "troll"?
Drachasor 08-21-04, 01:49 AM	Originally posted by Lxarth What does it mean when you say "troll"? It's message-board talk in this case. A Troll is someone that posts a delibrately inflammatory comment merely to get people to respond with emotion and anger. (In contrast to a Flamer that retorts to things with anger and personal insults). -Drachasor
Kilsek of Sheverash 08-21-04, 01:54 AM	I yell "CRACK THE SPINE!!" when a player is clueless on a rule he should know direcly related to his character. It's become a funny kind of thing now - everyone yells it at everyone when they screw up and don't know what the rules are for something...lol So they go and crack the spine of their handy-dandy wow-I-really-do-have-one-huh PHB, those lazy bastards! Which is great, bc it puts the focus in a fun way on the simple fact that Players have ONE responsibility: to read and understand the PHB. Having said that, it's definitely overwhelming for many newer players. Coaching them is fine - for a while, not forever. For veteran gamers trying to unlearn a previous edition - same thing as newbies, but you should be a little tougher on them. CRACK THE SPINE!!! And to be fair, I've gotten the same thing yelled at me on the rare occassions I've played... lol Needless to say, I quickly do exactly that and I try very hard not to get blasted with it ever again! :D
Methos of Aundair 08-21-04, 09:13 AM	You might first check to see if they are playing any other games, much like what Salla asked. I’ve found players often get confused with gaming rules from the different systems. Usually though, if this is the case, the player tends to be a hardcore gamer and not a casual one. Another thing, did you begin at 1st level? If these players are as confused as you say they are maybe you should start over from 1st level, that way they are able to learn the game from the beginning and better understand the characters capabilities. As to the: " We've been playing since 1980, we're veterans.. blah blah blah." …remark, the group I play in and DM in has an average age of 35. The least experienced of our group began playing DnD when it was AD&D (1st edition). Never have I heard them state they are veterans. I have heard them rant about all the previous edition books that now sit forgotten in a box at the back of their closet. But veteran remarks, no. How old is your group? As to this being his first post, give him a chance. I spent several months reading this board before I ever posted, and once I did it was in relation to something I disagreed with and started a new thread to find everyones’ opinions. I'm sure I didn't look to good there either. Not to say I don't wonder myself, but at least give him a chance.
Lxarth 08-21-04, 11:01 AM	It's message-board talk in this case. A Troll is someone that posts a delibrately inflammatory comment merely to get people to respond with emotion and anger. (In contrast to a Flamer that retorts to things with anger and personal insults). :weep:I feel so...dirty...:weep: Nice explination...now I feel like im 8...but thats ok, ill just go shot a passing car with a paintball MARKER
DMFTodd 08-21-04, 11:42 AM	Been playing for over a year with the same group, every week, they've all played much longer than a year; and every week I, as well, have to explain a spell DC to most of them. In my case, I've decided that my players are, in fact, retarded and there is nothing I can do about it.
Derren S. 08-21-04, 12:05 PM	I also had a group of players like these. After one year of gaming they finally got the basics but in the following two years never advanced beyone that. The reason? They didn't want to learn the rules. quote: "Rules are something for the DM. I say what I want to do and the DM tells me how this translates into rules. They finally dropped me because I was to much a rules lawyer and they couldn't do realistic stuff in my games like knocking out experienced soldiers instantly by throwing a stone at their head and I didn't allow theri creative arm protectors +5 and knee protectors +5 and by this choked their creativity.
porker 08-21-04, 04:58 PM	I see some nice responses. Some I can use and some I can't. I really thought that I was going to get posts like " Well, you're just a jerk." Or " It's just a game". Anyway, the people I play with range in age from 21 - 35. There are 8 of us. All of them are either in collage or have graduated with at least a BA/BS. Shows the quality of a collage education now doesn't it? As far as relationships, one is my brother, and two are close friends, other than that I can say I 'like' the other ones as people but we aren't quite buddy buddy. Three of us have been playing since Dungeons and Dragons was a stapled together rag with the dragon and the guy with the golden spear going at it. One of the players is BRAND new to tabletop Dungeons and Dragons but has played most of the computer games that have to do with DnD. It's a good point that unlearning one edition to the next might be hard. Not that they put too much emphisis on learning those ones either, but stoneskin for example has a bit hard to beat into them, and the 250 gold pieces seldom gets paid. As for what level we started at, we did start at level 1. We got one group of characters up to level 18 or so, and then we started over, epic seemed kind of boring, and 3.5 was out for a month or so before we got to use it. From what I've read, I feel better knowing that I'm not the only one who is treated like the DM handles the rules and the players just say what they want to do. Not that I agree with it, just nice to know I'm not alone. As far as making cheat sheets and things like that, a lot of those are in the 3.5 DMG/PHB's. Back in 3.0 I did make some of those, but, that's just another sheet to loose. Also, the basic character sheet has a spot for spell DC's . I'd like to say the players not knowing the mechanics was the only thing that I was angry about. I know the answers and while it would speed the game up quite a bit only half of my problem is things like that. I hear complaints about " I just want a straight up fight", but at level 13, if the monsters just "stright up fight" a party of 7 pc's the exp is going to be insane as is the treasure and... quite frankly that's boring to me as a DM. Monsters with reach are going to trip charging fighters, monsters that don't use weapons are going to try and disarm people and take their item and possibly ise it aganst them, and enemy casters are going to do things other than just cast fireballs non stop. I just feel that monsters with an int over 12 are smarter than I am, and I should put up the best fight I can. But if I do that, they'll all die. I'm sure it's going to be a gradual process. I went so far as to give one of the 'tacticlly gifted" players a crown that lets him make a suggestion to each of the players before the combat round, so they could act more as a uniform group, and if they took the suggestion, they wouild get +2 to their attack rolls, damage rolls and skill checks and a few othter things. Only thing is, that I think that player got bogged down, not sure. I do wholeheartedly like the "crack the spine" coment. As for being a troll, I'm not sure this qualifies as the most debateable topic, but maybe you have a point. I've been here before, but I got a new computer and making a new screen name was a bit easier, my other screen name was Gorescream.
Aliquid 08-21-04, 07:17 PM	Originally posted by porker As for being a troll, I'm not sure this qualifies as the most debateable topic, but maybe you have a point. I've been here before, but I got a new computer and making a new screen name was a bit easier, my other screen name was Gorescream. I should note that my post said that I wouldn’t go so far as to suggest you were a troll, I just thought the post was a bit suspect. Even so, now that I have read your second post I have to apologise for even suggesting suspicion. I have been dealing with some annoying trolls on some different boards lately, and I must just be a bit trigger happy on the subject. I hope I didn’t offend.