Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Isida Kep'Tukari 01-14-08, 05:54 AM	Howdy, I've got myself a problem player, and wanted to turn to the experts for some advice. I play with two other gaming couples, and one of the wives, let's call her "Paula," has some peculiar gaming habits that are not working for the games we're in. I DM her in one campaign, and am a fellow player in one her husband runs. As a note, she is relatively new to D&D, and is still fuzzy on a lot of the rules. The other guy in our group once played in a one-shot she ran, and said it was "enlightening" to see how she used the rules. If the player didn't fine the trap on the lock, she would say, "Why don't you check... the hinges!" and things of that manner. This explains why she often asks for multiple rolls on what are typically pass/fail skill checks. However, it's not her rules comprehension that's the problem. She's also a huge reader of fantasy and sci-fi. She and I share similar tastes in books, and she's borrowed several of mine in the past. Also, when asked, she's come up with interesting and engaging character backgrounds. Her immersion in the fantasy world isn't the problem either. What she has is no sense of wonder. All of her characters, from her epic-level fighter to her first level bard, are blase about everything. Even the most mind-blowing possible descriptions of world-shaking events are met with a "Huh... wow. Ok, that was cool. What did we find for treasure?" Not to toot my own horn, but the other players in the group were suitably awed (or, more fairly, their characters were) by said descriptions. She also likes to be the best at what she does. I mean, most players like their characters to be effective, and those of us with more D&D experience help her tweak her character to be as bad-ass as is legally allowed (because some of us are powergamers, and she is relatively new to the game), but she seems to focus on these mechanics in-game, and her roleplaying suffers. Or, alternately, she tries to lean too heavily on her roleplaying to the detriment of her mechanics. It's the roleplaying, more than anything else, that concerns me. The current campaign I am running required everyone to have a reason to run and hide in a big city (Sharn, in the Eberron setting). She's playing a 1st level bard/researcher that ran away from a powerful and abusive husband who's still searching for her. However, whenever we've met an NPC, she always says, "Surely you've heard of me!" because her character sings at a reasonably well-known inn. With any other character, any other player, I could just say her character was just having happy delusions of grandure with naivty of youth. But no, the player really seems to believe her character should be famous. Granted, we're playing in Eberron, where there aren't a boatload of high-level NPCs, and a relatively low-level character could be famous. And she's had the rolls to start to raise her character to greater venues (and fame) than she's had. However, she's still in hiding. The last thing she should want to do is become famous! Yet she's blase about the whole thing. Every single character I've seen her run casually approaches everything as something she's seen before. Even when the DM tells her, "Dude, you've never seen this before," she just has her character shrug, say "Huh, ok, so that's what that looks like," and goes on. I don't know if this is a consequence of all the books she's read. I don't know if she's thinking, perhaps subconsciously, "Well, I've read about dragons/demons/ancient horrors from beyond the pale, so it's no big deal," and then projecting these onto her characters. She doesn't emote her characters that much, other than for the usual game quips and jokes around the table. There is no wonder, there is no delight, there is no awe, unless she manages to get her hands on some shiny treasure, or take down a monster single-handedly, and even then it's transitory. When it comes to XP, I do doll out roleplaying XP, and she pretty much always gets the short end of the stick there. However, I do it in private, on separate pieces of paper, because I find that more fair. When she does attempt to emote, I try to praise her for that. What else can I do to draw this player further into the wonder of the game? Should I focus a few more scenes on her? Do I bite the bullet and have a private conversation or e-mail? What do you people suggest to bring the glory back to the game?
Balseraph 01-14-08, 06:19 AM	I have known someone who was similar in outlook to that and it mended itself somewhat over time. He is still the most likely to just shrug off something amazing in a game while everyone else marvels at it though. If time will not mend this fast enough for you then I guess it is either living with it or biting that bullet and mentioning it politely in private.
kelvinaw273 01-14-08, 06:34 AM	Is she like this in normal, everyday life? Because if so she's just projecting her 'been there, done that' attitude into the game world, and that's just the way she is.
KyoMamoru 01-14-08, 07:35 AM	It seems to me that you have a player using a character that's just begging for a plot hook. Rather than ignore the fact that her character boosts of her identity, make it a liability for the party. Perhaps the husband, so frantic for her love has sent mercenaries after her? Perhaps he believes the others in the group have kidnapped her, coerced her, etc. More so, by her using that line in every single town/city/place that you've been in, your characters are going to be incredibly easy to track. Those points all lead to brilliant chances to bring the player into the world, it's just a matter of taking them and rolling them into the plot. In terms of awe, there isn't much that you can really do. If you're hooking the other players, and she simply refuses to go 'WOW' in character, then all you can do is continue to make the others enjoy their play time. Something you may want to remind her, is that she was a Singer, and thus has rather limited experience outside of the walls of an inn. I doubt character wise they'd have let their -prize-, -renowned- singer venture off to explore. To an extent one could say that she had heard stories [bardic knowledge], but that will only cover "about local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places." [SRD]. Bardic Knowledge implies nothing about the knowledge of creatures or anything of the nature, those all require other knowledges. Thus as a character, if she would begin to 'know' about every creature in game, I would ask that she role play her knowledge checks properly. There are knowledges for every single creature type, if I recall, and that is their reason. At least, it is on the game table when I'm Dming. Now, there are branches in knowledge such as Religion providing information on Undead/Vampires to a very, very low extent. It's more of a matter of what makes sense the most.
Isida Kep'Tukari 01-14-08, 07:47 AM	It seems to me that you have a player using a character that's just begging for a plot hook. Rather than ignore the fact that her character boosts of her identity, make it a liability for the party. Perhaps the husband, so frantic for her love has sent mercenaries after her? Perhaps he believes the others in the group have kidnapped her, coerced her, etc. More so, by her using that line in every single town/city/place that you've been in, your characters are going to be incredibly easy to track. Those points all lead to brilliant chances to bring the player into the world, it's just a matter of taking them and rolling them into the plot. That's probably what I'm going to end up doing. It's just her whole backstory has this whole dramatic reason for her running away and recovering from the horrible abuse at her husband's hands... Ah well. I think it has the potential to be really neat to bring in her backstory, but I just wish it didn't have to be so blatant. Well, once bitten, twice shy.
stealth_monkey 01-14-08, 07:53 AM	To be honest I don't see the problem. Every player has their own little nuances that they project onto their characters, and hers is a blase attitude. Onto the other specific things you brought up: She also likes to be the best at what she does. I mean, most players like their characters to be effective, and those of us with more D&D experience help her tweak her character to be as bad-ass as is legally allowed (because some of us are powergamers, and she is relatively new to the game), but she seems to focus on these mechanics in-game, and her roleplaying suffers. Or, alternately, she tries to lean too heavily on her roleplaying to the detriment of her mechanics. It's the roleplaying, more than anything else, that concerns me. I think this is something most new players go through. I'd just give it some time until her confidence improves to the point where she can roleplay the big brawlers. Also, once she gets a better handle on the rules she won't have to spend quite as much attention to them, since as a general rule the more powerful characters require the interaction of several complicated rules in order to function, it's fairly natural she'll be confused. The current campaign I am running required everyone to have a reason to run and hide in a big city (Sharn, in the Eberron setting). She's playing a 1st level bard/researcher that ran away from a powerful and abusive husband who's still searching for her. However, whenever we've met an NPC, she always says, "Surely you've heard of me!" because her character sings at a reasonably well-known inn. With any other character, any other player, I could just say her character was just having happy delusions of grandure with naivty of youth. Actually, I think this is pretty damn decent role-playing. If she's a bard, she's going to have a fairly high charisma score, let's just say 15. That's pretty damn high in terms of mere mortals. Her character is going to be used to walking in a room to see people turn to watch her, and it's quite possible that all that attention has gone to her head. Also, anyone who has made a career out of being the centre of attention is going to have a hard time being hidden in the shadows, and mistakes as a character's nature comes out are inevitable Every single character I've seen her run casually approaches everything as something she's seen before. Even when the DM tells her, "Dude, you've never seen this before," she just has her character shrug, say "Huh, ok, so that's what that looks like," and goes on. She doesn't emote her characters that much, other than for the usual game quips and jokes around the table. There is no wonder, there is no delight, there is no awe, unless she manages to get her hands on some shiny treasure, or take down a monster single-handedly, and even then it's transitory. Now, I'm just trying to provide some neutral advice, so please take it at that, I'm not trying to insult you. In your post, you seem a little focussed on the whole "awe and wonder" thing, I'd suggest taking a glance at your dm'ing style when looking at this player. I'd suggest that you may be expecting a type of reaction from your players that you're just not getting from this girl. All dm's love seeing people enjoy their adventures and go "wow" at their descriptions of fantastic wonders, but perhaps this simply isn't this girl's schtick. Perhaps this girl isn't playing dnd for the wonder and amazement of discovery, perhaps she's playing to roll some dice, kill some monsters and get some treasure. If she's as prolific a reader as you suggest, she probably gets her fantasy wonder fix from the books she reads, and someone who enjoys the combat and social side of the game doesn't really hurt anyone. She's not one of the problem powergamers who will pout in the corner until combat starts, it sounds like she's someone who enjoys one aspect of the game and is quite content to let the other players enjoy their favourite aspects. By the sounds of it, if every player was like her the "what's a dm to do" forums would be a pretty quiet place, and I don't really see why anyone would want to change that.
Isida Kep'Tukari 01-14-08, 08:04 AM	I don't know, maybe my post is just my equivalent of whining, "She doesn't Understand my Deathless Prose!" All of your points are pretty much relevant, stealth monkey. Her roleplaying style is just so radically different from the rest of the group that she seems like the lead boot of the game in terms of roleplaying sometimes. I've cross-posted this on ENWorld, and I've also had pointed out that I probably just have an unavoidable personality conflict with this player. She's a nice person and friend; I enjoy seeing her and her husband socially. This thing with the roleplaying is just one thing that really bugs, and I'm trying to find a way to work around it before it goes from just bugging to seriously irking me. I probably should just suck it up though. :(
toucanbuzz 01-14-08, 11:13 AM	Aye, each person plays D&D for a different reason and gets something just a little different out of it. Some like the immersion into the world, others the mechanics of the game, some just like the feel of dice rolling! To help her along as a new player, just watch for any metagaming (recognition of a monster her character has never seen, use of info a 1st level character wouldn't have) and say "tell me how would your character knows that?" Once you get folks thinking along those lines, it'll be easier to get into character and even...maybe...roleplay. Have fun!
iserith 01-14-08, 05:23 PM	It seems to me that you have a player using a character that's just begging for a plot hook. Rather than ignore the fact that her character boosts of her identity, make it a liability for the party. Perhaps the husband, so frantic for her love has sent mercenaries after her? Perhaps he believes the others in the group have kidnapped her, coerced her, etc. More so, by her using that line in every single town/city/place that you've been in, your characters are going to be incredibly easy to track. Those points all lead to brilliant chances to bring the player into the world, it's just a matter of taking them and rolling them into the plot. I'm going to have to agree with KyoMamoru here. If the player gives you a background, it's in your best interest to make it part of the storyline. That's a big deal in my campaigns. I consider the overall plot first, the session goals second, and then I make sure that every session, somebody's background plays some role in the story. And I never pass notes or take people into the spare bedroom. I play it out in front of everyone and tell them what they can and cannot use in-game later on (barring being informed by other characters). Have her abusive husband show up with some lackeys and let the fists fly. Keep it a barfight just so it doesn't get too ugly (fisticuffs). Give her a feeling of empowerment if she wins or a thirst for revenge if she loses. I would also recommend booze.
Dunsel 01-14-08, 05:57 PM	This player sounds like a "Stevie". Take a folding chair and ... uh, wait a minute. Never mind. Actually, it sounds like you like her and you want her to stroke your ego! Hmm, maybe one or the other but it sounds like you are upset by this than you should be. This makes me think you are more involved in the issue. Bottom line - I wouldn't worry about it. If she isn't excited, she isn't excited.
Etarnon 01-14-08, 07:32 PM	I get the feeling that you need approval from all players, you aren't getting it from her in game, and you thus feel slighted.. that there is a personality conflict. You say you like her, you get along with her, she's a friend. So clue in to the fact that like some people that always have a signature move, or some PC's that are always oriental, wielding a katana, she has: "I am blase' about everything" Stamped and underlined on her character sheet. She seems down to earth, like "okay, sure fine, let's get to the treasure." If she was a greedy world weary dwarf, it would work for you, would it not? But she's not playing that so you are taking offense. Don't force her to be more than what she can give. You want her to "Roleplay better." See it like she's not running around as a CN Elf with 19 dex, slaying townspeople as she goes, nor plotting murder on the party. I mean, I'll tell you, all of my players have always had the blase' "whatever" attitude, about any campaign I've ran for the last 14 years of running this group. D&D1e, Birthright, Top Secret, Traveller, Gamma World, Timemaster, Boot Hill, AFMBE, CON X, 2.0 And now Spycraft 2.0. All blase'. How was the game? Meh. So that's just how it is. I'm still running, they are still playing. But I figured out, "the approval is in the showing up, not the ooh ah, thanks for a great game, DM." Good luck.
Rosisha 01-14-08, 07:52 PM	I agree. It sounds like you have a fairly happy gamer who is showing up and not disrupting the party or the game world. Her reaction isn't OMGWTFBBQPEWPEWPEWLASERBEAMS! but at the same time, she is there. She is playing, and she is enjoying herself. I seriously DO NOT intend this to be rude either, but as a sci-fi junky myself, can you honestly say that you write and project scenes on level with some of the upper level sci-fi books? This isn't an insult, I know for a FACT that I CANNOT do this. I DM and I know my worlds are no where near a description to say Martha Wells, or Tolkien. I can't compete. And my players, who know more about sci/fi then me, know it. I get the occasional "Awesome mechanic!" and that is that. It could just be the same for her. She enjoys playing the game, but doesn't see what happens at the game board to be the same as what happens in books. The day I can write that well will be the day I stop DMing and start making money as an author :D Rosisha
Etarnon 01-14-08, 11:49 PM	Good luck on the book writing. I feel the same way. My Trek games are not trying to outdo star trek...It's just the characters in whatever I come up with. But again, to the OP... Maybe she has some sort of mental wiring, where she's having trouble getting into character, and hasn't yet got suspension of disbelief. I'd go with make specially cool treasures, with some kind of puzzle or something, to figure out, just for her. Or maybe some prop costume jewelry...That way it feels more "real" to her, perhaps. I know there are some medical conditions where people can just come off as flat, not interested in anything. I wouldn't take it personally. As you say, she's a friend, she shows up. Tailor make a scenario that buys into her been there done that, uh huh where's the treasure...