Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SnowbladeYuki 10-01-05, 06:43 PM	This is probably something that no GM's have to deal with, but unfortunately, things this this do come up from time to time. Here's the situation. Normally I run a campaign for a group of friends. One particular player (let's call him Bob) would always roll high in "critical" situations, and most of the time I never see the rolls, he just rolls the dice in some obscure place and declares the result. Other time Bob will just randomly roll his dice and then later when I ask him what his rolls are he shows me the results on the table and declared it as a "pre roll". While I hate to accuse Bob of cheating, I simply had no proof and I did not want to accuse him of cheating since we're all friends, I merely took his word for granted, as odd as his rolls is. However, a week ago, another player of mines ran a campaign and I joined in as a player. Doing that, I was able to observe everyone a bit more in detail since I was no longer preoccupied with GMing, and kept a very close eyes on some of the rolls, especially the ones by Bob. I noticed some things as odd, such as adding +7 to his To Hit on his rolls as a lvl 1 non combat character, which I called him out on, and his "pre rolling" tricks. However, what truly TRULY upset me that night is when he tried to do a critical action, he was suppose to roll a certain value on a dice. He did it openly in front of everyone, and I kept a very close eye on the roll, and when he did it, he FAILED by one. However not everyone was paying close attention (who knows?) but the result was on the table for about half a second and he quickly scooped up the dice, and declared the result as making the roll, which really upset me, because now it puts the GM in a position of suddenly dealing with the equvilent of a lvl 1 character gaining a +5 Sword. Not only that, every player there played honestly, as I kept a close eye on everyone, which makes that one player taking advantage of the situation that much more worse. I brought this up with the GM, who was also shocked to hear it. We already decided to implement the following rules for both our games 1. No more pre rolling. Rolls can only be made when the GM declares it. Any other rolls made when the GM did not declare it will not count. (and pre rolling only slows the game down) 2. Results must be made visible and left on the table. If the GM didn't see it, it doesn't count. If you take away the dice after you made the roll when the GM ask for the result, then it automatically fails. 3. At least one other party must bear witness to seeing the roll made after it was offically declared. We also decided to automatically fail any future attempts for Bob to try obtain that "lvl 5 Sword" to automatically fail, it was never his (he should count it as lucky, because failure would have resulted in a violent death). As a Gm we can fib with the rolls in secret so that's the stance that we're going to take it. Now, the problem with him as not being able to kick him out as a player is that he happens to be a very good friend of ours. Any type of conflict with him will result in everyone's friendship tearing apart. As much as I enjoy RPGing, it's not worth losing friendships over a game, however I do feel he's taking advantage of the situation with our trust. It's my hope that with the new rules we can keep his rolls in check, but I'm afraid that once a cheater always a cheater, he'll just find a new way around it. If that were to happen, then we can probably confront him (in private) in regards to it, but I hope it doesn't have to come down to that. How would you handle such a situation? We're still in the process to decide how to handle Bob so any feedback would be much appreciated.
Ared Du'kel 10-01-05, 06:52 PM	Have you tried talking with him about it? Don't flat out accuse him, but tell him you are starting to feel a little queasy about the way he rolls. Let him know you still want him to stick around, and that you don't think he's trying to cheat, but let him know that even the appearance of cheating leads to the accusation.
otto333 10-01-05, 06:58 PM	Well if that ever happend in my game I would look at it as taking advantage of the trust in me and the group. I would take it very offensive for he is taking advantage of your friendship. I would take him asside and say "Isn't it funny that people take advantage of friendship over a game?" that there should make him think about what he is doing.
imperialjunkie 10-01-05, 07:00 PM	Here's the situation. Normally I run a campaign for a group of friends. One particular player (let's call him Bob) would always roll high in "critical" situations, and most of the time I never see the rolls, he just rolls the dice in some obscure place and declares the result. Other time Bob will just randomly roll his dice and then later when I ask him what his rolls are he shows me the results on the table and declared it as a "pre roll". While I hate to accuse Bob of cheating, I simply had no proof and I did not want to accuse him of cheating since we're all friends, I merely took his word for granted, as odd as his rolls is... I brought this up with the GM, who was also shocked to hear it. We already decided to implement the following rules for both our games 1. No more pre rolling. Rolls can only be made when the GM declares it. Any other rolls made when the GM did not declare it will not count. (and pre rolling only slows the game down) 2. Results must be made visible and left on the table. If the GM didn't see it, it doesn't count. If you take away the dice after you made the roll when the GM ask for the result, then it automatically fails. 3. At least one other party must bear witness to seeing the roll made after it was offically declared. It happens and there are threads about it from time to time here. The easy solution is open rolling. Therefore implement #1 and #2. The third rule is a little excessive and can slow down game play. If the player knows he needs to leave the dice on the table in front of everyone for longer than 1/2 second, then he will probably change his ways. However not everyone was paying close attention (who knows?) but the result was on the table for half a second and he quickly scooped up the dice, and declared it as making the roll, which really upset me, because now it put the GM in a position of suddenly dealing with the equvilent of a lvl 1 character gaining a +5 Sword. We also decided to automatically fail any future attempts for Bob to try obtain that "lvl 5 Sword" to automatically fail, it was never his (he should count it as lucky, because failure would have resulted in a violent death). How in the name of all that is good and just is a 1st level character getting the option of acquiring a +5 weapon?!!!! And if the two alternatives were either him getting the weapon or dying, then the DM needs to consider: #1 Treasure allocation #2 Game balance #3 Sanity This situation seems out of control. Now, the problem with him as not being able to kick him out as a player is that he happens to be a very good friend of ours. Any type of conflict with him will result in everyone's friendship tearing apart. As much as I enjoy RPGing, it's not worth losing friendships over a game, however I do feel he's taking advantage of the situation with our trust. It's my hope that with the new rules we can keep his rolls in check, but I'm afraid that once a cheater always a cheater, he'll just find a new way around it. If that were to happen, then we can probably confront him (in private) in regards to it, but I hope it doesn't have to come down to that. You are about to get a torrent of posts from those who believe that you need to end your friendship with this person immediately as they are not worthy of your friendship, time, or compassion. Cheaters are worthless maggots who deserve to be stepped on. Just wanted to prepare you. ;)
OneRingShort 10-01-05, 07:03 PM	I think he saying the character is as powerful as a level 1 character weilding a +5 sword becuase of his rolling, not becuase he actually has one
ytookay 10-01-05, 07:03 PM	I would handle the situation like a jackass. I've dealt with a player like that before, and the situation can be tricky. We got lucky because we can, for the most part, avoid interacting with our group's resident cheater/liar/SOB. So, if you guys used to/still do other things with him outside of DnD, you can just not invite him or only play it when he's not around and do whatever else when he is. If you want to settle the dispute in game, always give him the short end of the stick. Is everyone getting really cool, useful treasures that you rolled up 'randomly' when you made the adventure? Give him something he can't/won't use. Kill his characters shamelessly, and gently guide other players from situations that would cause their deaths.
imperialjunkie 10-01-05, 07:05 PM	I think he saying the character is as powerful as a level 1 character weilding a +5 sword becuase of his rolling, not becuase he actually has one OK. My bad. Poor reading comprehension.
SnowbladeYuki 10-01-05, 07:06 PM	I think he saying the character is as powerful as a level 1 character weilding a +5 sword becuase of his rolling, not becuase he actually has one Correct, with Bob making that one roll by cheating it, it puts the GM in a very bad position. Im not going to disclose the full nature of exactly what happened here (the PC's in the game may on the off chance read this very public forum of course) but lets just say it's pretty bad. That's why him making that particular roll when the DC is very high looks a bit.... odd
Vengeblade 10-01-05, 07:08 PM	I would personally confrot him. I've had a player who would do exactly the same thing. Well I keep all the player's character sheets in a portable-mini file holder. This is so I can audit character sheets every few weeks to assure everyone is about equal. This also let's me leave notes for them that only me and the player in question see. I hate kicking people out, my group is made only of good friends of mine and I don't wanna change that, but cheating is really killing the excitement of the game. So I just left a note in his folder saying: I know you've been fudging your rolls, I don't know why, I just want it to stop, if you feel like you're not having fun and are resorting to this to do so, then we need to talk about your character and what to do to fix it. Any other questions just ask me." I didn't use the word cheating though simply because people get defensive real quick when you do, just be honest and upfront, but don't forget to be concerned about why he feels the need to do this.
dan1234 10-01-05, 07:19 PM	we had a player that kept one roling over and over again when it wasent his turn. If the dice woul land on anything above 15 he would say, "OH! I am keeping that one". At first he had just started playing and did not do it a lot, so we just ignored it. But after a while we told him to f*ck off and stop doing that, and he did. So I see your problem as the same thing. . .
Psychoticpsymon 10-01-05, 07:25 PM	This is probably something that no GM's have to deal with, but unfortunately, things this this do come up from time to time. Here's the situation. Normally I run a campaign for a group of friends. One particular player (let's call him Bob) would always roll high in "critical" situations, and most of the time I never see the rolls, he just rolls the dice in some obscure place and declares the result. Other time Bob will just randomly roll his dice and then later when I ask him what his rolls are he shows me the results on the table and declared it as a "pre roll". While I hate to accuse Bob of cheating, I simply had no proof and I did not want to accuse him of cheating since we're all friends, I merely took his word for granted, as odd as his rolls is. However, a week ago, another player of mines ran a campaign and I joined in as a player. Doing that, I was able to observe everyone a bit more in detail since I was no longer preoccupied with GMing, and kept a very close eyes on some of the rolls, especially the ones by Bob. I noticed some things as odd, such as adding +7 to his To Hit on his rolls as a lvl 1 non combat character, which I called him out on, and his "pre rolling" tricks. However, what truly TRULY upset me that night is when he tried to do a critical action, he was suppose to roll a certain value on a dice. He did it openly in front of everyone, and I kept a very close eye on the roll, and when he did it, he FAILED by one. However not everyone was paying close attention (who knows?) but the result was on the table for about half a second and he quickly scooped up the dice, and declared the result as making the roll, which really upset me, because now it puts the GM in a position of suddenly dealing with the equvilent of a lvl 1 character gaining a +5 Sword. Not only that, every player there played honestly, as I kept a close eye on everyone, which makes that one player taking advantage of the situation that much more worse. I brought this up with the GM, who was also shocked to hear it. We already decided to implement the following rules for both our games 1. No more pre rolling. Rolls can only be made when the GM declares it. Any other rolls made when the GM did not declare it will not count. (and pre rolling only slows the game down) 2. Results must be made visible and left on the table. If the GM didn't see it, it doesn't count. If you take away the dice after you made the roll when the GM ask for the result, then it automatically fails. 3. At least one other party must bear witness to seeing the roll made after it was offically declared. We also decided to automatically fail any future attempts for Bob to try obtain that "lvl 5 Sword" to automatically fail, it was never his (he should count it as lucky, because failure would have resulted in a violent death). As a Gm we can fib with the rolls in secret so that's the stance that we're going to take it. Now, the problem with him as not being able to kick him out as a player is that he happens to be a very good friend of ours. Any type of conflict with him will result in everyone's friendship tearing apart. As much as I enjoy RPGing, it's not worth losing friendships over a game, however I do feel he's taking advantage of the situation with our trust. It's my hope that with the new rules we can keep his rolls in check, but I'm afraid that once a cheater always a cheater, he'll just find a new way around it. If that were to happen, then we can probably confront him (in private) in regards to it, but I hope it doesn't have to come down to that. How would you handle such a situation? We're still in the process to decide how to handle Bob so any feedback would be much appreciated. "bob" is playing in a situation with all very good friends, so bob is probably fudging his die because he thinks you all don't care. I do it sometimes, but it's funny and obvious when I do. Everyone let's me get away with it cuz we aren't all uptight about it. I vote to talk to him, and if everyone isn't paying attention to everyone elses rolls, then maybe you need to up the action, all things considered. I'm getting the vibe they just sit around staring blankly while bob rolls. This should be remedied immediately.
Teydyn 10-01-05, 08:44 PM	Talk to him. Just you two. Be honest (but friendly ;) ) Set up your rules. If he keeps cheating/breaking these rules: Kick him. He may be a friend, but a friend doesnt ruin the fun of the others...
BadCatMan 10-01-05, 11:55 PM	"Wow, Bob, your dice are lucky. Here, let me borrow your d20 so I can do some practice rolls with it. Maybe its badly balanced. You can borrow Bill's d20 for now. And roll it over there so its not bouncing off anything."
OctoberRaven 10-02-05, 12:47 AM	1 and 2. Make it count for EVERYBODY, not just him. If he continues to break the rule, instead of solving it OOC, use reverse metagaming and have an Inevitable hunt him down.
Bloodtide_the_Red 10-02-05, 01:25 AM	1. No more pre rolling. Rolls can only be made when the GM declares it. Any other rolls made when the GM did not declare it will not count. (and pre rolling only slows the game down) 2. Results must be made visible and left on the table. If the GM didn't see it, it doesn't count. If you take away the dice after you made the roll when the GM ask for the result, then it automatically fails. Now theas are not in the Core Rules, but they should be, after all most good gamers use them. Pre-Roll? Please.. And you should not try to 'hide' rolls from the DM...of course the DM should see every roll.(It's like the folks that hide things in game from the DM...when I shake his hand he gets hit with the vamparic touch that I cast in secret before). Another thing you can do is not tell the players the DC(or AC). Simply tell them to roll. If they ask how hard it is, simply describe it without the numbers. BT
KJW 10-02-05, 08:25 AM	I have a player who fudges his rolls from time to time. He is also a phenomenal min/maxer munchkin powergamer. :) Fortunately, we have open rolling. We all know his tendencies and call him on it every so often, he then checks his numbers, and says "oh, I must have added wrong." Annoying, but funny actually. It's so expected that everyone is watching him, which helps keep him in line. Plus, stunts like that are an invitation for me as the DM to fudge my rolls against the player, and no one can fudge as well as the DM. :) I can say that over the years he is fudging less and less. I understand this would make people ballistic in other groups, and a few of my players do occasionally get upset, but the truth is he is a good roleplayer, he has played some brilliant characters including an outstanding pacifist healer. He is just very attached to his characters and the concept of 'winning,' while not the best mindset for D&D I do understand it. It's a balancing test, if he was not such a good roleplayer I would be more annoyed, and likely take more serious action, but I try to judge my players as a whole package. Plus the friends factor makes things more complicated and more tolerable.
Otto the Bugbear 10-02-05, 09:03 AM	Otto's house rules. #1. Cheat if you want to, I will too. :devil: I've used that one for years. Usually when people pester me about it, I'll just explain that, as DM, I don't even need to use dice. Rocks work just was well. "Look! Another crit. Sorry Mr. Cheater." I can only remember one incident years ago that it didn't work. Then I had to be a dick to get the point across. (I know, it's a shock. A bugbear being a dick.) Mr. Cheater started to get all whiney and arguementative about me not allowing a pre-roll. After that, all pre-rolls turned into fumbles. That brought him around rather quickly. Nowadays, I'd just talk to the player calmly and explain why he isn't going to do that anymore. At least I think that's what I'd do. The above example had gotten on my nerves for a while, so I was less calm about it than I should have been. Actually, I'm thinking of changing my rule #1 before I start my next DM session, thanks to a rule I found on this board. Though I can't remember who posted it originally. I think the new one will read: Rule 1: DON'T BE A DICK! Cheers Otto :)
Nom 10-02-05, 10:04 AM	1. No more pre rolling. Rolls can only be made when the GM declares it. Any other rolls made when the GM did not declare it will not count. (and pre rolling only slows the game down)I use a slight variant. Before rolling (or as you roll) the dice, the player must declare what the roll is for and anything that might be applicable to the roll. It also must be relevant to the situation at hand - "I roll my attack" when everyone else is rolling for initiative will be ignored. The only time I'll allow a player to "keep that roll" is if the player takes an action and then we discover that an important event was missed. Unless the missed event significantly changes the situation, the out-of-order action stays resolved, for good or ill. I also assume that everyone except the DM will roll their dice "publicly", in that anyone who wants to see the result gets to have a look. The DM is a partial exception to this rule, though I am tending more and more (when DM-ing) to roll publicly too, unless the PCs shouldn't know the result.
DarknessEternal 10-02-05, 03:01 PM	As a Gm we can fib with the rolls in secret so that's the stance that we're going to take it. That's pretty hypocritical of you. The game is more fun when no one cheats, especially the DM. It's more rewarding to the players if the DM doesn't cheat.
imperialjunkie 10-02-05, 03:06 PM	That's pretty hypocritical of you. The game is more fun when no one cheats, especially the DM. It's more rewarding to the players if the DM doesn't cheat. It ain't rewarding to the player if the DM doesn't cheat and that results in character death.
Light of Day 10-02-05, 03:49 PM	My group's rules on dice rolling: 1: No pre-rolling. Only roll when the DM asks you to. 2: DM must see the roll for it to be valid. This one's usually overlooked so long as at least one person other than the die roller can verify the roll, though. 3: If it goes on the floor, re-roll it. It's too much of a pain in the backside to verify rolls that land off the table. 4: Players are allowed their own dice-rolling conventions on top of this, so long as they agree with the top 3 rules, and are consistant. For instance, we have a player who always has a pad of paper in front of him for taking notes and stuff, and likes to roll his dice on the pad. The DM allows him to re-roll any dice that roll off of the pad, so long as he re-rolls ALL dice that go off the pad. 5: The DM is not obliged to tell you DCs before you roll. I have a habit of asking DCs before I roll the dice. Due to above rules, and the fact that I'm such a slow adder I generally tell another player my modifier and get them to add it for me, it'd be pretty hard for me to cheat by knowing the DC. I still tend to ask anyway, for some reason. The DM has yet to buckle and tell me straight what a DC is unless it's something simple straight out of the player's handbook, though. We've never really had any problem with people cheating dice rolls (except the DM, who happens to be a poor lier so it's obvious when he fudges rolls). I'm not really sure what we'd do if we DID have a player cheat. I'm not sure any of us have the backbone to call a player on something like that.
Unknowable 10-02-05, 04:26 PM	This is probably something that no GM's have to deal with, but unfortunately, things this this do come up from time to time. Here's the situation. Normally I run a campaign for a group of friends. One particular player (let's call him Bob) would always roll high in "critical" situations, and most of the time I never see the rolls, he just rolls the dice in some obscure place and declares the result. Other time Bob will just randomly roll his dice and then later when I ask him what his rolls are he shows me the results on the table and declared it as a "pre roll". While I hate to accuse Bob of cheating, I simply had no proof and I did not want to accuse him of cheating since we're all friends, I merely took his word for granted, as odd as his rolls is. However, a week ago, another player of mines ran a campaign and I joined in as a player. Doing that, I was able to observe everyone a bit more in detail since I was no longer preoccupied with GMing, and kept a very close eyes on some of the rolls, especially the ones by Bob. I noticed some things as odd, such as adding +7 to his To Hit on his rolls as a lvl 1 non combat character, which I called him out on, and his "pre rolling" tricks. However, what truly TRULY upset me that night is when he tried to do a critical action, he was suppose to roll a certain value on a dice. He did it openly in front of everyone, and I kept a very close eye on the roll, and when he did it, he FAILED by one. However not everyone was paying close attention (who knows?) but the result was on the table for about half a second and he quickly scooped up the dice, and declared the result as making the roll, which really upset me, because now it puts the GM in a position of suddenly dealing with the equvilent of a lvl 1 character gaining a +5 Sword. Not only that, every player there played honestly, as I kept a close eye on everyone, which makes that one player taking advantage of the situation that much more worse. I brought this up with the GM, who was also shocked to hear it. We already decided to implement the following rules for both our games 1. No more pre rolling. Rolls can only be made when the GM declares it. Any other rolls made when the GM did not declare it will not count. (and pre rolling only slows the game down) 2. Results must be made visible and left on the table. If the GM didn't see it, it doesn't count. If you take away the dice after you made the roll when the GM ask for the result, then it automatically fails. 3. At least one other party must bear witness to seeing the roll made after it was offically declared. <snip> How would you handle such a situation? We're still in the process to decide how to handle Bob so any feedback would be much appreciated. I haven't read through the entire thread. At the game that I DM, everyone has to roll out in the open. Any rolls that are concealed by the players hand or obstructed by any other means automatically count as a natural 1. This includes scraping up the dice before anyone else sees it. There are no do overs and no pre-rolls. This rule is for everyone. And, believe me, this rule works better than the 'doesn't count' rule because the 'doesn't count' rule leaves the player with the chance to maybe get in another try if the first one didn't work. So a player might risk it. No player that I have ever DMed has ever been willing to risk a fumble. That has been my standing rule for a long time now (ten years at least that I can remember (I've been playing for 20 years and DMing for 18 of those years), and that is one of the first things a player learns when coming into my game (I go over my house rules and etiquette rules with everyone before they play their first gaming session with me) and so I've never had anyone try to pull those tricks in any game that I have DMed (at least that I can remember). So I don't know how to tell you to deal with someone that does pull those kinds of tricks. Anyway, I do have a house etiquette rules list that I run my games by. Every game that I have ever seen go bad has always been a result of someone not using at least something on my house etiquette. I have not had a game of my own go bad in this way for over a decade. If you want I could post it and you can adopt it. I have already known several DMs to adopt it and it cleared up almost all the problems in the group. Granted, they almost all lost players once they adopted and enforced the house etiquette but soon found that their games were better without those players.
invisble1 10-02-05, 05:22 PM	is Bob's name Julie?
Fixxxer 10-03-05, 01:45 AM	How would you handle such a situation? This happened to me tonight, as a matter of fact. I thought I noticed the player cheating, but since I wasn't 100% on it, I didn't bring it up. After the game, one of my players called me to tell me that he'd seen the offending player cheating. The solution is as simple as it is effective...the offender won't be comming back.
UltimateReality 10-03-05, 02:42 AM	Anyway, I do have a house etiquette rules list that I run my games by. Every game that I have ever seen go bad has always been a result of someone not using at least something on my house etiquette. I have not had a game of my own go bad in this way for over a decade. If you want I could post it and you can adopt it. I have already known several DMs to adopt it and it cleared up almost all the problems in the group. Granted, they almost all lost players once they adopted and enforced the house etiquette but soon found that their games were better without those players.Actually, I'm interested in them! Post or PM as you wish. :)
DarknessEternal 10-03-05, 12:52 PM	It ain't rewarding to the player if the DM doesn't cheat and that results in character death. How rewarding is it to play when you can't possibly die? Do you really want players jumping down a dragon's mouth because they know you won't let them die? Character death is motivation. Why are they bothering to do anything at all if they can't die? "Yay, we won again despite putting no thought into anything or even trying. Good thing we're protected by the DM." If that's how you play, throw out the dice entirely. If you insist on adjudicating all random events, you won't need them, neither will your players.
OGS-Remix 10-03-05, 01:08 PM	+7 at level 1 isn't too out of whack really. A raging Barbarian with 20 str and weapon focus has +7. A halfling fighter with 16 dex, with throwing weapons and weapon focus has +7. Cheating is bad though, and rules about rolling usually solve them. If you still have a problem, just fudge rolls back and see how he likes getting constantly critted.
Bruunwald 10-03-05, 01:16 PM	I think you'd be surprised how many of us have to deal with cheaters. Our latest cheater pulled a lot of subtle stuff over a few years' time. His latest went something like this: I emailed everybody to find out their total gold, so I could factor it with their equipment to keep track of character wealth. He emails me back, telling me he has three times what I think he should just in gold (after buying tons of equipment, including mithril armor for a Large character! and a Large-size mithril axe!). I tell him that's wrong, and I point out the estimated wealth of the others. He insists. I go back and calculate treasure handed out (over two years!), and tell him how impossible it is that he has this much. He still insists. So in the interests of moving forward and giving him the benefit of the doubt, I compromise. I tell him to erase his total, take half that, and that he should be happy because it's almost twice what one of the other characters has. He agrees. Then, later, he "finds" a scrap of scratch paper in some dark corner of his notes that "might be" his actual total. Guess what? It's less than half of what I settled for, making the total he claimed more than three times what he really had. But now he has me, because I've already made my decision and he knows I'll stick with it. So I feel totally played, of course. This guy makes big dollar deals for a living, which doesn't make me feel any better. So the next game, I tell him, "remember how the Duke compensates you for consumable items when you work for him? Well, consider yourself compensated for the next thirty missions." He tries to whine about it. He'll even give back the gold just to have the opportunity to make my life miserable by continuing to argue for more and more compensation after missions. I tell him I'm tired of arguing with him over money. I put the game on a longterm hiatus for this guy's behavior and other reasons. The part that sucks? We don't want him back, but we do want his live-in girlfriend (a friend of ours who was in the game before he was). The other day she told my wife how badly they both want to play. I know I have to eventually explain to her the situation. We want her, but not him. But I know it's going to make everybody miserable. Sometimes, there's no helping that.
Bane 10-03-05, 01:21 PM	My rules on rolling. 1. Roll as often as you like, whenever you like. When I ask you for a roll, you can roll one that counts. Just don't roll loudly, I'm trying to describe something. 2. Roll wherever you like. Just make sure I see the ones that you want to affect the game. 3. Sure you can bring your own dice. But dice at my table tend to get redistributed during the course of the game, so your loaded die may end up in my hands at critical times. 4. No dice towers. If you build one, pewter dice will start flying towards you.
Bruunwald 10-03-05, 01:23 PM	How rewarding is it to play when you can't possibly die? Do you really want players jumping down a dragon's mouth because they know you won't let them die? Character death is motivation. Why are they bothering to do anything at all if they can't die? "Yay, we won again despite putting no thought into anything or even trying. Good thing we're protected by the DM." If that's how you play, throw out the dice entirely. If you insist on adjudicating all random events, you won't need them, neither will your players. Character death may be a sort of motivation to think. But character reward is motivation to act. Both are necessary. Sometimes a die flub by the DM is necessary to keep the excitement going. Sometimes, the cruel reality of the dice is the best dramatic resolution. A good DM is open to both.
Psychoticpsymon 10-03-05, 02:12 PM	Here's one, have everyone roll a random reflex save. Then have anyone who passes it jump to the side and fall into a hidden pit of stakes with massive poison on them. Have everyone else get hit with a large stick for 1d2 damage. :D
DarknessEternal 10-03-05, 02:26 PM	Reverse traps are particularly nasty to high-level adventurers over-confidant in their trap avoidance abilities. Sprinkle them around.
bob_the_great 10-03-05, 02:37 PM	i recently joined a game, its very laid back and i've seen this one guy cheat a few times. i'm not saying anything, as i don't really care too much and i don't know if the dm would care. unless the dm sets ground rules, the players may not think it is a very big deal.
ErikPSO 10-03-05, 03:01 PM	I am against adding rules in the middle of the game. This may solve your problem, but it may also alienate the player. How would you feel if your DM added a rule that you knew was aimed at you? The last thing I would ever want to do is lose a friend over a game. Pay attention to your friend's feelings. I would be particularly careful about the use of the word "cheating," as Vengeblade said earlier.
Slider33 10-03-05, 03:10 PM	The odds are on your side. If you need proof, next time you play just secretly write down the roll result (w/o modifiers). Of course you'll be writing what he "says" he gets. Jot 'em down. Get a good sample of his rolls (maybe even other players rolls) and compare. Statistically, his rolls should appear random. If you see a tendancy to be high, you can be skeptical. If they are very high, you'll have valid reason to be suspicious. And mark the ones that are in those "critical" situations like you mentioned, and see how his results look. But all in all, if he's swiping the dice so fast you can't see the result, or rolling out of plain sight when everyone else is, you have need to concern. How you should deal with it, it's another story. But he's the one jeopardizing the friendship and bond of the group, not you. It's not fair to you or anyone else if he's the one cheating. If the group breaks up, it's his fault, not yours for calling him out on it. The other players should support fairness. But in any case, if he is a friend, approach it casually, nonchalantly, or just give him a hard time with it in a buddy-buddy feel. Like a little friendly ribbing from his buddies about his questionable rolls. If he gets the hint, he should shape up. Also, what are the other players feelings on the matter? Have none of them said a single thing about it? But, all you gotta do is throw in a casual "hey, dude reroll that for me I didn't see it. You took it away too fast." If he keeps doing that, just make him reroll it every time. He should roll exactly like everyone else does, if not, then you have to enforce it.
Jiro 10-03-05, 04:02 PM	When I am playing and I see something that doesn't add up my first reaction is to call it! It doesn't take many "No you didn't roll a 20! The die was a 2! What are you doing?" to get them to stop. We haven't had any cheating, but sometimes we do have incorrect addition going on, with me being as bad as any of them. :D It is harder to spot as a dm, but if you have a good group (I do) everybody looks out for each other. But the rules on rolling are good ones and you should feel confident implementing them. If the offending player feels picked on, just ask him "Why? Are you cheating? If you have nothing to hide, then the rolling rules are irrelevent to you..."
revnk 10-03-05, 07:01 PM	Character death may be a sort of motivation to think. But character reward is motivation to act. Both are necessary. Sometimes a die flub by the DM is necessary to keep the excitement going. Sometimes, the cruel reality of the dice is the best dramatic resolution. A good DM is open to both. Agreed. And it's one thing to die because of cold dice and another thing to die because you got in over your head or otherwise did something stupid. If a player is about to badly lose an encounter where he ought to triumph simply because he's rolling low and the DM is on a streak, it may be time (but not always!) for the DM to "misread" a few die rolls to keep things in line.
Bruunwald 10-03-05, 07:43 PM	i recently joined a game, its very laid back and i've seen this one guy cheat a few times. i'm not saying anything, as i don't really care too much and i don't know if the dm would care. unless the dm sets ground rules, the players may not think it is a very big deal. Hmmm... I guess most of us were taught as children that cheating was wrong, and so, is always a big deal. No cheating isn't a ground rule the DM ought to have to set. It should be granted. I would say the opposite might be true. That in order to okay cheating, the DM would have to set a ground rule approving it. In which case, it wouldn't be cheating!
Malruhn 10-03-05, 09:02 PM	I had a good friend that did the same stuff. He would toss his d20 UP, then it would hit the table... *Bounce* *Bounce* *SNAG* "Natural 18! Plus five, that's a 23!!" Problem was, the danged die NEVER STOPPED BOUNCING!!! I finally called him on it, and it got ugly. He was hollering and screaming, but I never budged. The entire group was sick of it. So, I capitulated. I just told him that when he rolled, he had to roll his dice all the way across the table, so it bounced off the DM screen - and if it didn't, he missed/failed/whatever. If he didn't want to do this, he was banned from the table. He pouted for about fifteen minutes, and then agreed when we got to the next battle. We played for about five years together after that... with the same rules. He finally admitted to having a "problem" and that he appreciated having the second chance.
Catra 10-03-05, 09:15 PM	State before each game that re-rolls are not allowed, and if someone calls a re-roll, they automatically take 10 no matter what the result. Even in combat :devil:
bob_the_great 10-03-05, 11:23 PM	Hmmm... I guess most of us were taught as children that cheating was wrong, and so, is always a big deal. No cheating isn't a ground rule the DM ought to have to set. It should be granted. eh, i don't cheat. this guy fudging a roll here and there doesn't really affect me, definitly not to where it is worth rocking the boat. now, if at any point the dm stated an intolerance for cheating and i saw the cheater do it again, i'd mention it to him. until that happens i'll stick to my current impression of the game, that what is most important is that everyone is having fun. just trying to present a view that others might not have considered
DarknessEternal 10-04-05, 01:04 AM	If a player is about to badly lose an encounter where he ought to triumph simply because he's rolling low and the DM is on a streak, it may be time (but not always!) for the DM to "misread" a few die rolls to keep things in line. I heartily disagree 100%. I will never play in a game with such a DM. Throw the dice and numbers away and co-author a novel with your group if that's how you feel.
HomerSimpson 10-04-05, 01:04 AM	Another thing you can do is to not tell players what the target DC/AC is. It is more of a shot in the dark for them that way, and they in general will be less comfortable with cheating. If the DC/AC is known, then they can "conveniently" roll the exact number or just over what they needed. With unknown targets, however, cheating is a lot more obvious (ya know... when every roll they make is a natural 17 or higher).
Archon151 10-04-05, 01:26 AM	We had a chronic cheater in our group once. We did several things about it. We called them on it in front of everybody. When they failed to cease the GM would just roll 2-5 extra dice (we were playing exalted/old starwars at the time) to compensate for there amazing rolls. I figure what you can do is just make sure what his maximum roll can be then make him make a roll he cant possibly make and see if he does it.
revnk 10-04-05, 03:38 PM	I will never play in a game with such a DM. That is absolutely your prerogative. Throw the dice and numbers away and co-author a novel with your group if that's how you feel. While I'm sure that my group could write a pretty good book, we prefer playing a game--but thanks for the friendly advice. For whatever it might be worth, DE (and I expect it won't be worth much to you), the theory that a DM has the prerogative to fudge rules if it advances the good time of the group is a time-honored tradition going back to the hoary old days of RPGing, and was even a part of official advice from companies like TSR, West End and Chaosium. It might well be somewhere in the official advice of Wizards, now that they have the D&D franchise. It is quite possible you've had a DM who did you a few favors on the dice without you even knowing it. Still, the bottom line remains that you have a right to DM as you please, or to play with a group that shares your philosophy on the dice. There are those, it appears, who disagree with you. My advice to any less-experienced DMs reading this thread is simply to go by whichever philosophy works better for you. Cheers.
Slider33 10-04-05, 03:52 PM	I'm sure I'm not alone when I say I wouldn't allow countless hours of work be wasted by a few unlucky rolls of the dice. I put far too much work in my campaign to have that happen, I would fudge enough to at least avoid a huge disaster. However, if the players themselves are the cause of it, there's not much you can do about that, hard work or no. Can't really avoid it when the players decide to do something suicidal.
revnk 10-04-05, 04:34 PM	I'm sure I'm not alone when I say I wouldn't allow countless hours of work be wasted by a few unlucky rolls of the dice. I put far too much work in my campaign to have that happen, I would fudge enough to at least avoid a huge disaster. However, if the players themselves are the cause of it, there's not much you can do about that, hard work or no. Can't really avoid it when the players decide to do something suicidal. Yep. That's where I think someone's comment about "players jumping down a dragon's throat because they know they won't die" is inapposite--if the players are doing something really dumb, the dice pretty much have to fall where they may and everyone lives with it. If a DM chooses to fudge--and that's up to an individual DM, and there's nothing wrong with strictly living by the dice--if a DM chooses to fudge, it ought to be a relatively rare thing that the players aren't aware of, and necessary to avoid a disaster. A DM who has to fudge often is probably overpowering his encounters and ought to step back a moment to reconsider how he's running his game.
DarknessEternal 10-04-05, 04:55 PM	It is quite possible you've had a DM who did you a few favors on the dice without you even knowing it. We don't use a screen around here. Everyone (including the guy running whatever) rolls in the open. My advice to any less-experienced DMs reading this thread is simply to go by whichever philosophy works better for you. And by you, he means your group, not just one person's singular opinion.
wonlee76 10-04-05, 05:11 PM	If he is a good friend, call him out on it. Remind him that D&D has no "winners" or "losers" and cheating isn't going to really help him. Cheating just makes the game pointless to play when a PC has no chance of failing in a critical situation. Plus it makes those successes feel like genuine successes. Implement the rules you suggested but he should know its his fault for the rules.