Challenge and tactical elements [Archive] - Wizards Community

Challenge and tactical elements [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Agu
02-20-07, 03:32 PM I have some problems with giving real challenge to my players. In the beginning of our current campaign it wasn't hard to put challenging encounters to the four players with low hp and no magic items. But now I have seven players who are around level 14, and no encounter is a thread to them. The problem might have something to do with the fact that I really don't know how to use the ECL chart in Dungeon Master's Guide for seven players. How can I know in advance which encounter will be easy or challenging?

Another thing that I had in mind is different and unusual factors that affect the challenge level. For example, how can I make the enviroment an essential part of an enconter? And how should I make one of those "Easy if handed properly"- encounters mentioned in DMG?
tiamot
02-21-07, 10:44 AM Now that your characters are level 14 its time to get them to break out of the hack and slash mode and get them to think more creatively when it comes to battles. Sure, you can try to just toss things at them with a CR that you think is appropriate, but as you are finding out that can be too cut and dry. The key here is to make your monsters smarter. We expect PCs to use tactics, but often forget that monsters can use them too. Don't throw a threat at them that they can simply cut down to defeat. Put some other elements in place. Of course make sure that you are also taking your players strengths and weaknesses in mind. If you've noticed that your PCs tend to defeat monsters in a certain way, don't make it so easy for them to do what they think always works. Make it more challenging for your PCs to use their old tricks in order to get them to try new things. Surprise them! Separate them! Handicap them so they can't do the same old thing!

For example, don't just toss one or two big bad guys at them and then give them the luxury of being able to attack said bad guys all at once. For once, give the monster the tactical 'high ground', because realistically, your PCs won't always have the advantage! Let your PCs get to some town and bed down for the night, thinking all is peaceful. Then in the middle of the night, have the town attacked from all sides. It will take your PCs a few moments to get their bearings and get their armor on, but make it a race against time before the local guards can't defend the gates anymore. (Or you can even have the town overrun already!) Determine a few courses of action that would be successful in stopping the attack. Maybe they have to locate all of the generals and take them down? Don't tell them where the generals are, and how many there are. Let them figure this out. And if they try to go after each general as a group, have them get overrun. Use the power of numbers to force them to be sneaky and think out side of the box. You can also use this set up as a plot for them to have to go and find out why the town was attacked. There are plenty of ways that you can seek to justify such a large scale battle and make it challenging.

Another thing that you can try is to not focus so much on battles, but on puzzles and logic. I will occasionally toss my PCs into one of my famous 'logic dungeons' where there are few if any monsters to fight, but an entire slew of puzzles and challenging circumstances that the party must solve in order to get out of said dungeon.
krichaiushii
02-21-07, 03:11 PM Some disjointed thoughts.

Some environmental options include battles on ledges or bridges or cliff faces overlooking deep water, lava, etc. Opponents may try to bullrush or throw or trip PCs over the edge. High winds and storms may limit ranged combat due to limited line of sight and the difficulty of propelling anything through a high wind. Having to constantly make balance checks on slippery footing can cause a problem, as well.

Opponents may also be out of reach, perhaps up high, perhaps across a chasm, perhaps in a crowd of innocents (only a problem to good-aligned PCs).

Flying opponents may be able to stay out of reach of the PCs melee guys. Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic (and Mordenkainen's Disjunction) often take care of PC flyers.

Smart spellcasting opponents WILL Scry-Buff-Teleport to pop in and kill off PCs, then run away. If the PCs can do it, why can't the NPCs?

If your PCs have a reputation of hitting and running, then Dimensional Anchor on one may force the whole Party to stay and fight against impossible odds.

Darkness is your friend, especially with PCs who need light to see. Destroy the light sources.

Another option for terrain advantages include low corridors that constantly twist and turn (and have both murder holes in the ceilings and arrow slits on the sides) to prevent ranged combat, limit line of sight, limit how many melee guys can fight at one time, etc. Kobolds like this trick. They also like to flood low corridors - with fine sand, as this gets rid of those pesky water breathing magics.

At level 14, your PCs should start making forays into the planes. Some planes are actively hostile to mortal lifeforms. Carceri, the Abyss, Hell, etc. can all be a constant source of resource-drain. Coupled with innumerable bad guys, and you have a hostile environment.

Overall, try to have at least one opponent per PC per encounter. They don't all need to be the same strength, and indeed they shouldn't be, but they need to prevent the PCs from focusing fires on one guy long enough for that one guy to get off his special attacks or use his kewl powerz.
Gottwick
02-21-07, 06:33 PM At level 14 I think the PCs should see fewer simple combat encounters. The PCs should have intelligent, long-running foes with Intelligence. Mind-flayers, rakshasas, yuan-ti, cultists, fiends, dragons ... these should be the masterminds. They're deliberately trying to kill the PCs so they can advance their evil schemes. Let your imagination run wild.
chitzk0i
02-21-07, 07:21 PM Some environmental options include battles on ledges or bridges or cliff faces overlooking deep water, lava, etc. Opponents may try to bullrush or throw or trip PCs over the edge.

Don't be afraid to use this one. By 14th level, everyone should have a flying item. Why do you think there are so many kinds?
Agu
02-22-07, 04:16 AM Thanks for the great advice! I think my problem is that I almost always have only one or two big CR enemies at time, rather than many a bit easier ones. I still have one question: How should the ECL chart be used for different number of players than four? All the numbers there are meant to be used with four PCs, aren't they?
IceFractal
02-22-07, 04:24 AM Well, if you extrapolate from the rules for monsters, 7 players, compared to four, is worth about +2 ECL. However, a single monster with a much higher CL is probably not the best idea - either it'll TPK them or they'll steamroll it. So I'd recommend at least two major foes with 4-6 competent underlings.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Agu 02-20-07, 03:32 PM	I have some problems with giving real challenge to my players. In the beginning of our current campaign it wasn't hard to put challenging encounters to the four players with low hp and no magic items. But now I have seven players who are around level 14, and no encounter is a thread to them. The problem might have something to do with the fact that I really don't know how to use the ECL chart in Dungeon Master's Guide for seven players. How can I know in advance which encounter will be easy or challenging? Another thing that I had in mind is different and unusual factors that affect the challenge level. For example, how can I make the enviroment an essential part of an enconter? And how should I make one of those "Easy if handed properly"- encounters mentioned in DMG?
tiamot 02-21-07, 10:44 AM	Now that your characters are level 14 its time to get them to break out of the hack and slash mode and get them to think more creatively when it comes to battles. Sure, you can try to just toss things at them with a CR that you think is appropriate, but as you are finding out that can be too cut and dry. The key here is to make your monsters smarter. We expect PCs to use tactics, but often forget that monsters can use them too. Don't throw a threat at them that they can simply cut down to defeat. Put some other elements in place. Of course make sure that you are also taking your players strengths and weaknesses in mind. If you've noticed that your PCs tend to defeat monsters in a certain way, don't make it so easy for them to do what they think always works. Make it more challenging for your PCs to use their old tricks in order to get them to try new things. Surprise them! Separate them! Handicap them so they can't do the same old thing! For example, don't just toss one or two big bad guys at them and then give them the luxury of being able to attack said bad guys all at once. For once, give the monster the tactical 'high ground', because realistically, your PCs won't always have the advantage! Let your PCs get to some town and bed down for the night, thinking all is peaceful. Then in the middle of the night, have the town attacked from all sides. It will take your PCs a few moments to get their bearings and get their armor on, but make it a race against time before the local guards can't defend the gates anymore. (Or you can even have the town overrun already!) Determine a few courses of action that would be successful in stopping the attack. Maybe they have to locate all of the generals and take them down? Don't tell them where the generals are, and how many there are. Let them figure this out. And if they try to go after each general as a group, have them get overrun. Use the power of numbers to force them to be sneaky and think out side of the box. You can also use this set up as a plot for them to have to go and find out why the town was attacked. There are plenty of ways that you can seek to justify such a large scale battle and make it challenging. Another thing that you can try is to not focus so much on battles, but on puzzles and logic. I will occasionally toss my PCs into one of my famous 'logic dungeons' where there are few if any monsters to fight, but an entire slew of puzzles and challenging circumstances that the party must solve in order to get out of said dungeon.
krichaiushii 02-21-07, 03:11 PM	Some disjointed thoughts. Some environmental options include battles on ledges or bridges or cliff faces overlooking deep water, lava, etc. Opponents may try to bullrush or throw or trip PCs over the edge. High winds and storms may limit ranged combat due to limited line of sight and the difficulty of propelling anything through a high wind. Having to constantly make balance checks on slippery footing can cause a problem, as well. Opponents may also be out of reach, perhaps up high, perhaps across a chasm, perhaps in a crowd of innocents (only a problem to good-aligned PCs). Flying opponents may be able to stay out of reach of the PCs melee guys. Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic (and Mordenkainen's Disjunction) often take care of PC flyers. Smart spellcasting opponents WILL Scry-Buff-Teleport to pop in and kill off PCs, then run away. If the PCs can do it, why can't the NPCs? If your PCs have a reputation of hitting and running, then Dimensional Anchor on one may force the whole Party to stay and fight against impossible odds. Darkness is your friend, especially with PCs who need light to see. Destroy the light sources. Another option for terrain advantages include low corridors that constantly twist and turn (and have both murder holes in the ceilings and arrow slits on the sides) to prevent ranged combat, limit line of sight, limit how many melee guys can fight at one time, etc. Kobolds like this trick. They also like to flood low corridors - with fine sand, as this gets rid of those pesky water breathing magics. At level 14, your PCs should start making forays into the planes. Some planes are actively hostile to mortal lifeforms. Carceri, the Abyss, Hell, etc. can all be a constant source of resource-drain. Coupled with innumerable bad guys, and you have a hostile environment. Overall, try to have at least one opponent per PC per encounter. They don't all need to be the same strength, and indeed they shouldn't be, but they need to prevent the PCs from focusing fires on one guy long enough for that one guy to get off his special attacks or use his kewl powerz.
Gottwick 02-21-07, 06:33 PM	At level 14 I think the PCs should see fewer simple combat encounters. The PCs should have intelligent, long-running foes with Intelligence. Mind-flayers, rakshasas, yuan-ti, cultists, fiends, dragons ... these should be the masterminds. They're deliberately trying to kill the PCs so they can advance their evil schemes. Let your imagination run wild.
chitzk0i 02-21-07, 07:21 PM	Some environmental options include battles on ledges or bridges or cliff faces overlooking deep water, lava, etc. Opponents may try to bullrush or throw or trip PCs over the edge. Don't be afraid to use this one. By 14th level, everyone should have a flying item. Why do you think there are so many kinds?
Agu 02-22-07, 04:16 AM	Thanks for the great advice! I think my problem is that I almost always have only one or two big CR enemies at time, rather than many a bit easier ones. I still have one question: How should the ECL chart be used for different number of players than four? All the numbers there are meant to be used with four PCs, aren't they?
IceFractal 02-22-07, 04:24 AM	Well, if you extrapolate from the rules for monsters, 7 players, compared to four, is worth about +2 ECL. However, a single monster with a much higher CL is probably not the best idea - either it'll TPK them or they'll steamroll it. So I'd recommend at least two major foes with 4-6 competent underlings.