Challenge Question - Too tough for my group? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Challenge Question - Too tough for my group? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
im_robertb
12-02-06, 08:28 PM I'll open by saying anyone playing in my group (PCs Ramon, Soregh, Dalania, Seamus, Rozzerig, Daniel) needs to turn back now. SPOILERS within if you play in my game.

So I'm setting up a combat for my PCs, and I'd just like to get some outside opinions about whether or not this set of monsters will be too tough or not. First, the PC roster. All are 3rd level:

Ramon, Human Paladin (often fights greataxe)
Soregh, Elven Ranger (often fights longbow, favored enemy goblinoid)
Seamus, Halfling Rogue (often fights longbow for 1st round, rapier + light mace after)
Rozzerig, Gnome Druid (often chucks/stabs with spears while riding his riding dog animal companion)
Dalania, Half-elf Bard (often opens with bardsong, then fights with crossbow or whip-trip)
Daniel, Human Sorceror (often casts Enlarge Person on Ramon, then blasts away)

A quick note about their gear: Everyone carries healing potions. Soregh, Seamus and Dalania each have a 1/day cure light wounds item (Dalania can also cast it). Daniel has a few scrolls and casts the Enlarge Person spells via a wand.

Here's what they'll be up against:

Bugbear Rogue 1 (CR 3)
Orc Cleric 3 (CR 3, strength + war)
Orc Barbarian 5 (CR 5, leader)
Hobgoblin Ranger 4 (CR 4, archer, favored enemy elf)
Half-orc Rogue 2 (CR 2, meleeist)

Assuming they're fighting in a rather large room with a few pillars about, only the bugbear and half-orc rogues get surprise (probably not even them, due to high spot+listen among the PCs), and that the PCs are going into the encounter aware that a fight could break out, but unbuffed, how good of a chance do you think they have?

To me, it looks like one or more of the PCs will die, and a TPK is very possible. What do you think?

Here's a few extra notes on strategy and consumables: The orc cleric will open by casting Enlarge Person, then Bull's Strength on the barbarian. The barbarian, obviously, will wade into melee. The bugbear and half-orc rogues obviously go for flanking (but as high STR races, are no slouches in straight-up melee), as the hobgoblin ranger (who doesn't have precise shot) focuses on the elf and half-elf or fires at whoever isn't in melee.

On the PC side of things, expect the sorceror to open with an Enlarge Person on the paladin, who will then start smiting evil. The rogue will probably try to get flanking and fail (4 consecutive outdoor encounters, not one sneak attack.) Meanwhile, the bard sings the first round, then drops a sleep spell or two and heals. Druid will probably do a bit of healing, maybe toss a summon or start chucking produce flame-balls. Sorceror has grease and magic missile, not to mention a good mind for tactics. If they're smart, the druid will pull out his scrolls of flame blade/poison/dispel magic.

I think I might want to take out the bugbear rogue to be on the safe side. Opinions?
JackSnape
12-02-06, 11:34 PM I'd give your players 50/50 odds. That looks to me like a EL 8 which I would consider a little too high for L3 players, even 6 of them. I'd suggest dropping one of the rogues or the ranger to lower the EL a bit.
Another option is to change the odds by giving the PCs surprise or some other advantage.
Keep in mind that I'm prone to underestemating my own PCs and I've often expected TPKs and ended up with a room full of monsters and only bruised PCs.
Zendu
12-02-06, 11:38 PM depending on if the rogues are hiding or not, they either dont matter, or will slaughter your team.

The rest of the odds depend on how far away the ranger is, and what feats the barb has. Id say a super tough fight, TPK wouldnt surprise me.
Newpaintbrush
12-03-06, 01:37 AM "Ramon, Human Paladin (often fights greataxe)
Soregh, Elven Ranger (often fights longbow, favored enemy goblinoid)
Seamus, Halfling Rogue (often fights longbow for 1st round, rapier + light mace after)
Rozzerig, Gnome Druid (often chucks/stabs with spears while riding his riding dog animal companion)
Dalania, Half-elf Bard (often opens with bardsong, then fights with crossbow or whip-trip)
Daniel, Human Sorceror (often casts Enlarge Person on Ramon, then blasts away)"

"Bugbear Rogue 1 (CR 3)
Orc Cleric 3 (CR 3, strength + war)
Orc Barbarian 5 (CR 5, leader)
Hobgoblin Ranger 4 (CR 4, archer, favored enemy elf)
Half-orc Rogue 2 (CR 2, meleeist)"

Doesn't sound like you're playing the enemies to their best ability, but still, you should be able to kill off one or two PCs, and very possibly all the PCs will die.

The PCs have very limited healing ability, and very limited melee ability (only one melee fighter), while the NPCs are pretty much "rawr", especially that Barbarian 5 Orc - who, I might add, has a really nasty Strength score.

Your PCs might not be total dummies, but they ALL have to be pretty good to walk away from this one. One clever sorcerer with a grease spell is just not gonna cut it. Particularly since at 3rd level, he won't have access to 2nd level spells, or even be able to apply a metamagic "Sculpt Spell" to his grease.

If you make the enemy play REALLY stupidly, then yeah, the PCs will win, but that's just dumb. Chop a few of those enemy levels off. And dropping the bugbear will help, but you're still risking a TPK with the enemy barbarian, rogue, and ranger focusing on one opponent while the enemy cleric heals and buffs.

Oh yeah, and Enlarge Person is not a great spell for the enemy cleric for a lot of reasons. One, "Silence" is the 2nd level clerical spell of choice. He pops it on the barbarian, and the barbarian charges. Standard stuff. Two, it is a FULL ROUND to cast the spell, during which time the cleric could be interrupted. Third, "Bless" is far better for a first level spell, unless you're trying to help some kinda grappler out. Fourth, after "Bless" is cast, "Bane" is a pretty good 1st level spell. Fifth, the cleric should probably memorize and cast "Spiritual Weapon"; isn't that the War domain's spell? Sixth . . . agh.
im_robertb
12-03-06, 01:53 AM First, the enemy group isn't totally optimized for effectiveness - more of a doing what they can with what they've got situation. Enlarge Person is actually the cleric's first level domain spell - it was between that and War's Magic Weapon. I'm aware it take a full round to cast, but don't mind the idea much - if he can get the barbarian up to Large size, it will be a lot more difficult for the PCs to get past the tank and hit the cleric, won't it? Not to mention that the cleric's role (in his clan, even) is to advise and aid the barbarian, so it's normal that he'd go with that instinct in combat.

Oh, and he does have a spiritual weapon readied.

Of course, the enemies aren't brilliant either. There is an orc in charge, after all, and the less said about the average INT score in the enemy group, the better. The ranger won't be too far away: he does want to be within 30' for that favored enemy damage, after all. The ranger has fought the party before, and has a particular dislike for elves.

Note that risking a TPK I don't mind, just having too large of a risk - but it does seem a bit too likely - I think I'll knock off the bugbear rogue and use him some other time. The barbarian is disgusting. I almost feel bad about his stats alone. He's not so bad unbuffed, but enlarge, rage, and bull's strength together add +10 STR. He's a standard power attack+cleaver, by the way.

Oh, and when the going gets tough, the hobgoblin bolts, hehe.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
im_robertb 12-02-06, 08:28 PM	I'll open by saying anyone playing in my group (PCs Ramon, Soregh, Dalania, Seamus, Rozzerig, Daniel) needs to turn back now. SPOILERS within if you play in my game. So I'm setting up a combat for my PCs, and I'd just like to get some outside opinions about whether or not this set of monsters will be too tough or not. First, the PC roster. All are 3rd level: Ramon, Human Paladin (often fights greataxe) Soregh, Elven Ranger (often fights longbow, favored enemy goblinoid) Seamus, Halfling Rogue (often fights longbow for 1st round, rapier + light mace after) Rozzerig, Gnome Druid (often chucks/stabs with spears while riding his riding dog animal companion) Dalania, Half-elf Bard (often opens with bardsong, then fights with crossbow or whip-trip) Daniel, Human Sorceror (often casts Enlarge Person on Ramon, then blasts away) A quick note about their gear: Everyone carries healing potions. Soregh, Seamus and Dalania each have a 1/day cure light wounds item (Dalania can also cast it). Daniel has a few scrolls and casts the Enlarge Person spells via a wand. Here's what they'll be up against: Bugbear Rogue 1 (CR 3) Orc Cleric 3 (CR 3, strength + war) Orc Barbarian 5 (CR 5, leader) Hobgoblin Ranger 4 (CR 4, archer, favored enemy elf) Half-orc Rogue 2 (CR 2, meleeist) Assuming they're fighting in a rather large room with a few pillars about, only the bugbear and half-orc rogues get surprise (probably not even them, due to high spot+listen among the PCs), and that the PCs are going into the encounter aware that a fight could break out, but unbuffed, how good of a chance do you think they have? To me, it looks like one or more of the PCs will die, and a TPK is very possible. What do you think? Here's a few extra notes on strategy and consumables: The orc cleric will open by casting Enlarge Person, then Bull's Strength on the barbarian. The barbarian, obviously, will wade into melee. The bugbear and half-orc rogues obviously go for flanking (but as high STR races, are no slouches in straight-up melee), as the hobgoblin ranger (who doesn't have precise shot) focuses on the elf and half-elf or fires at whoever isn't in melee. On the PC side of things, expect the sorceror to open with an Enlarge Person on the paladin, who will then start smiting evil. The rogue will probably try to get flanking and fail (4 consecutive outdoor encounters, not one sneak attack.) Meanwhile, the bard sings the first round, then drops a sleep spell or two and heals. Druid will probably do a bit of healing, maybe toss a summon or start chucking produce flame-balls. Sorceror has grease and magic missile, not to mention a good mind for tactics. If they're smart, the druid will pull out his scrolls of flame blade/poison/dispel magic. I think I might want to take out the bugbear rogue to be on the safe side. Opinions?
JackSnape 12-02-06, 11:34 PM	I'd give your players 50/50 odds. That looks to me like a EL 8 which I would consider a little too high for L3 players, even 6 of them. I'd suggest dropping one of the rogues or the ranger to lower the EL a bit. Another option is to change the odds by giving the PCs surprise or some other advantage. Keep in mind that I'm prone to underestemating my own PCs and I've often expected TPKs and ended up with a room full of monsters and only bruised PCs.
Zendu 12-02-06, 11:38 PM	depending on if the rogues are hiding or not, they either dont matter, or will slaughter your team. The rest of the odds depend on how far away the ranger is, and what feats the barb has. Id say a super tough fight, TPK wouldnt surprise me.
Newpaintbrush 12-03-06, 01:37 AM	"Ramon, Human Paladin (often fights greataxe) Soregh, Elven Ranger (often fights longbow, favored enemy goblinoid) Seamus, Halfling Rogue (often fights longbow for 1st round, rapier + light mace after) Rozzerig, Gnome Druid (often chucks/stabs with spears while riding his riding dog animal companion) Dalania, Half-elf Bard (often opens with bardsong, then fights with crossbow or whip-trip) Daniel, Human Sorceror (often casts Enlarge Person on Ramon, then blasts away)" "Bugbear Rogue 1 (CR 3) Orc Cleric 3 (CR 3, strength + war) Orc Barbarian 5 (CR 5, leader) Hobgoblin Ranger 4 (CR 4, archer, favored enemy elf) Half-orc Rogue 2 (CR 2, meleeist)" Doesn't sound like you're playing the enemies to their best ability, but still, you should be able to kill off one or two PCs, and very possibly all the PCs will die. The PCs have very limited healing ability, and very limited melee ability (only one melee fighter), while the NPCs are pretty much "rawr", especially that Barbarian 5 Orc - who, I might add, has a really nasty Strength score. Your PCs might not be total dummies, but they ALL have to be pretty good to walk away from this one. One clever sorcerer with a grease spell is just not gonna cut it. Particularly since at 3rd level, he won't have access to 2nd level spells, or even be able to apply a metamagic "Sculpt Spell" to his grease. If you make the enemy play REALLY stupidly, then yeah, the PCs will win, but that's just dumb. Chop a few of those enemy levels off. And dropping the bugbear will help, but you're still risking a TPK with the enemy barbarian, rogue, and ranger focusing on one opponent while the enemy cleric heals and buffs. Oh yeah, and Enlarge Person is not a great spell for the enemy cleric for a lot of reasons. One, "Silence" is the 2nd level clerical spell of choice. He pops it on the barbarian, and the barbarian charges. Standard stuff. Two, it is a FULL ROUND to cast the spell, during which time the cleric could be interrupted. Third, "Bless" is far better for a first level spell, unless you're trying to help some kinda grappler out. Fourth, after "Bless" is cast, "Bane" is a pretty good 1st level spell. Fifth, the cleric should probably memorize and cast "Spiritual Weapon"; isn't that the War domain's spell? Sixth . . . agh.
im_robertb 12-03-06, 01:53 AM	First, the enemy group isn't totally optimized for effectiveness - more of a doing what they can with what they've got situation. Enlarge Person is actually the cleric's first level domain spell - it was between that and War's Magic Weapon. I'm aware it take a full round to cast, but don't mind the idea much - if he can get the barbarian up to Large size, it will be a lot more difficult for the PCs to get past the tank and hit the cleric, won't it? Not to mention that the cleric's role (in his clan, even) is to advise and aid the barbarian, so it's normal that he'd go with that instinct in combat. Oh, and he does have a spiritual weapon readied. Of course, the enemies aren't brilliant either. There is an orc in charge, after all, and the less said about the average INT score in the enemy group, the better. The ranger won't be too far away: he does want to be within 30' for that favored enemy damage, after all. The ranger has fought the party before, and has a particular dislike for elves. Note that risking a TPK I don't mind, just having too large of a risk - but it does seem a bit too likely - I think I'll knock off the bugbear rogue and use him some other time. The barbarian is disgusting. I almost feel bad about his stats alone. He's not so bad unbuffed, but enlarge, rage, and bull's strength together add +10 STR. He's a standard power attack+cleaver, by the way. Oh, and when the going gets tough, the hobgoblin bolts, hehe.