Challenge rating info needed [Archive] - Wizards Community

Challenge rating info needed [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Thuragrun
08-03-04, 05:05 PM My first post!!

I am really new to dming and writing my first adventure. I have been playing for a long time so I am not totally inept. I searched the boards and see that the CR system is far from perfect. I hope someone can advise me to see if I am going to kill all the PCs. I am taking over for our old DM, he is moving. Where he left off, the PCs are supposed to attempt to free a town besieged by hobgoblins. The raiders do not think anyone knows they took the small town and get drunk at night in the large mead hall. The PC's want to attack the mead hall late at night to gain the advantage. There are six PCs between 7th and 8th level and a good mix of classes. They also have a 5th/4th level aasimar cleric/monk NPC(my old pc) in the party.I have a few questions....

1. I computed the CR of sixty four hobgoblins (1/2 CR each) and came up with CR 13. Am I right?

2. Are the PCs gonna die?

3. Is giving the drunken hobgoblins a -1 to hit but +1 to damage a good way to simulate the effects of alcohol.

4. Should I allow the PCs to have their initiative rolls and then have the hobgoblins go after due to suprise.

5. How in heck do I track that many combatants?

6. Should I scrap my old DMs adventure and just start over.

Thanks for all input!!
Redding MTG Player
08-03-04, 06:52 PM how drunk are they, if they are completely wasted then they would have a hard time standing up and would most likely hit their companions if they could even swing a sword, and in any case drinking is not going to give you strength unless it is made by those damn evil kibler elves.

if the hobgoblins arn't aware that they are there then they get a surprise round and afterwards you roll initiative (drinking would lower the hobgoblins rolls)

for that many you need some kind of mass combat system or just a lot of d20 sitting around.
KamikazeArchon
08-03-04, 07:10 PM Do the PC's have an arcane caster? A level 7-8 wizard will guarantee victory. A 7d6 fireball in a mead hall will probably take out half of the hobgoblins, and one or two more spells will waste the rest.

I know because we had a similar situation, scaled up... an average party level 10 group taking on an army of about 200 hobgoblins. Fireballs swept the battlefield clean.
primemover003
08-03-04, 09:40 PM 60 hobgoblins!!! Wow.

That's a lot of grunts that these PC's are gonna just massacre. Don't even include your old PC in the mix.

If you have to use more than 12 creatures to make an encounter chances are it's not even a challenge for PC's of that level.

Now you don't have to scrap the whole idea. By the level your PC's are at they have some serious firepower at their disposal. You should create the leaders of the Hobgoblin raiders and his chief lieutenants. Add a couple monstrous allies for good measure. The Hob leaders should have a Good fighter, at least one War oriented Cleric, and certainly a rogue.

You have 6 PC's (again drop your NPC they don't need the help) so when determining the encounters add 1 to it. The CR charts are set up to handle 4 players. Because you have 2 extra you need to add 1 to the EL.

The PC's should have the magic to sneak into the town without much problem. If they just start Fireballing the Hobs it's gonna get messy. Remember Hobgoblins are VERY militaristic. Some of them may be getting drunk in the Hall. But others WILL be on guard duty.

Hobgoblins are not savages like Orcs.
Nom
08-03-04, 11:07 PM Originally posted by Thuragrun
1. I computed the CR of sixty four hobgoblins (1/2 CR each) and came up with CR 13. Am I right?No. The system explicitly won't handle more than 16 critters (+8 EL) in a sensible manner.

The real question is "Will the PCs take any damage?" My party of level 5-6 characters recently fought about 20 hobgoblin warriors and barely raised a sweat. The scroll of level 5 fireball took out about half in a single hit, and the rest couldn't do enough damage to make a difference. Admittedly there were also about 10 other miscellaneous critters supporting the hobgoblins, but they hightailed it out of there immediately after the fireball.
Thuragrun
08-04-04, 03:01 AM No arcane spellcasters in the group, no one ever wants to play them, except me, but I am the DM now.

The drunks in the mead hall are only a portion of the total group of raiders. Most of the rest of the force is out on patrol, watching prisoners they huddled into some caves a mile out from the town center, or clearing out resistance fighters a few miles to the north.

I was also planning on having the leader be a human eigth level fighter, accompanied by a sixth level goblin cleric and four fifth level barbarian ogres as body guards. I was planning on having them drop into the fight when the grunts are worn down to about 10 - 15 left. I would assume the NPC cleric would be needed for healing since all the PCs are fighters, rogues, and rangers. I was thinking on having the remaining hobgoblins desert if the leaders and drunks get cleared out.
quaiven
08-04-04, 04:27 AM Well you've already gotten plenty of good advice here on the encounter, but I have to add something.

I know it's your old character and you enjoy playing, but you are the DM now and your party is already large enough so I strongly recommend that you retire your character. I know it's tough, but you have to remember that your character is effectively at 10th level while everyone else is 7th-8th, he can quickly outshine them which an NPC should never do. Just take a look around the boards and you'll quickly see all the threads that go along the lines of "My DM has an uber DMPC which is ruining the fun" Don't let your players have a reason to come here and gripe about you. And lastly speaking from exp it's really tough to resist the urge to cheat with your DMPC (you know adding magic items to the treasure that only they can use).
Thuragrun
08-04-04, 02:18 PM I know the evils of a DMPC. My old PC will be dying during the battle. I want a poetic death for him though. The four ogres will gang up on him. :bigeyes:
Autosponge
08-04-04, 04:44 PM Originally posted by Thuragrun
My first post!!

1. I computed the CR of sixty four hobgoblins (1/2 CR each) and came up with CR 13. Am I right?
12.5 actually so you'd round down to 12.
2. Are the PCs gonna die?
completely depends on their strategy, rolls, and how good their AC is (since they aren't dealing with magic, just lots of attacks. If they don't have a way to entangle/fireball or something similar early on they may be in trouble--doesn't mean you shouldn't run the encounter, just let them know that it could be deadly if they play stupid.
3. Is giving the drunken hobgoblins a -1 to hit but +1 to damage a good way to simulate the effects of alcohol.
no, giving them only partial actions like zombies would be if they are really drunk and make them always flat-footed.
4. Should I allow the PCs to have their initiative rolls and then have the hobgoblins go after due to suprise.
if the PCs get surprised you may have a TPK situation. The party will need distance, cover and at least to NOT be surprised to win/survive.
5. How in heck do I track that many combatants?
if they are all the same, it's easy. Just buy some yard sale stickers that you can write hits on and stick to the miniature. When you reach their HP total, take the mini off the table. Otherwise, use that and a spreadsheet to keep things straight since they won't have the same hp.
6. Should I scrap my old DMs adventure and just start over.
probably, but if you're new to DM'ing you can learn a lot from running a well-planned adventure, so it sort of depends on how much work was already done and how high the quality was.
Thanks for all input!!
np

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thuragrun 08-03-04, 05:05 PM	My first post!! I am really new to dming and writing my first adventure. I have been playing for a long time so I am not totally inept. I searched the boards and see that the CR system is far from perfect. I hope someone can advise me to see if I am going to kill all the PCs. I am taking over for our old DM, he is moving. Where he left off, the PCs are supposed to attempt to free a town besieged by hobgoblins. The raiders do not think anyone knows they took the small town and get drunk at night in the large mead hall. The PC's want to attack the mead hall late at night to gain the advantage. There are six PCs between 7th and 8th level and a good mix of classes. They also have a 5th/4th level aasimar cleric/monk NPC(my old pc) in the party.I have a few questions.... 1. I computed the CR of sixty four hobgoblins (1/2 CR each) and came up with CR 13. Am I right? 2. Are the PCs gonna die? 3. Is giving the drunken hobgoblins a -1 to hit but +1 to damage a good way to simulate the effects of alcohol. 4. Should I allow the PCs to have their initiative rolls and then have the hobgoblins go after due to suprise. 5. How in heck do I track that many combatants? 6. Should I scrap my old DMs adventure and just start over. Thanks for all input!!
Redding MTG Player 08-03-04, 06:52 PM	how drunk are they, if they are completely wasted then they would have a hard time standing up and would most likely hit their companions if they could even swing a sword, and in any case drinking is not going to give you strength unless it is made by those damn evil kibler elves. if the hobgoblins arn't aware that they are there then they get a surprise round and afterwards you roll initiative (drinking would lower the hobgoblins rolls) for that many you need some kind of mass combat system or just a lot of d20 sitting around.
KamikazeArchon 08-03-04, 07:10 PM	Do the PC's have an arcane caster? A level 7-8 wizard will guarantee victory. A 7d6 fireball in a mead hall will probably take out half of the hobgoblins, and one or two more spells will waste the rest. I know because we had a similar situation, scaled up... an average party level 10 group taking on an army of about 200 hobgoblins. Fireballs swept the battlefield clean.
primemover003 08-03-04, 09:40 PM	60 hobgoblins!!! Wow. That's a lot of grunts that these PC's are gonna just massacre. Don't even include your old PC in the mix. If you have to use more than 12 creatures to make an encounter chances are it's not even a challenge for PC's of that level. Now you don't have to scrap the whole idea. By the level your PC's are at they have some serious firepower at their disposal. You should create the leaders of the Hobgoblin raiders and his chief lieutenants. Add a couple monstrous allies for good measure. The Hob leaders should have a Good fighter, at least one War oriented Cleric, and certainly a rogue. You have 6 PC's (again drop your NPC they don't need the help) so when determining the encounters add 1 to it. The CR charts are set up to handle 4 players. Because you have 2 extra you need to add 1 to the EL. The PC's should have the magic to sneak into the town without much problem. If they just start Fireballing the Hobs it's gonna get messy. Remember Hobgoblins are VERY militaristic. Some of them may be getting drunk in the Hall. But others WILL be on guard duty. Hobgoblins are not savages like Orcs.
Nom 08-03-04, 11:07 PM	Originally posted by Thuragrun 1. I computed the CR of sixty four hobgoblins (1/2 CR each) and came up with CR 13. Am I right?No. The system explicitly won't handle more than 16 critters (+8 EL) in a sensible manner. The real question is "Will the PCs take any damage?" My party of level 5-6 characters recently fought about 20 hobgoblin warriors and barely raised a sweat. The scroll of level 5 fireball took out about half in a single hit, and the rest couldn't do enough damage to make a difference. Admittedly there were also about 10 other miscellaneous critters supporting the hobgoblins, but they hightailed it out of there immediately after the fireball.
Thuragrun 08-04-04, 03:01 AM	No arcane spellcasters in the group, no one ever wants to play them, except me, but I am the DM now. The drunks in the mead hall are only a portion of the total group of raiders. Most of the rest of the force is out on patrol, watching prisoners they huddled into some caves a mile out from the town center, or clearing out resistance fighters a few miles to the north. I was also planning on having the leader be a human eigth level fighter, accompanied by a sixth level goblin cleric and four fifth level barbarian ogres as body guards. I was planning on having them drop into the fight when the grunts are worn down to about 10 - 15 left. I would assume the NPC cleric would be needed for healing since all the PCs are fighters, rogues, and rangers. I was thinking on having the remaining hobgoblins desert if the leaders and drunks get cleared out.
quaiven 08-04-04, 04:27 AM	Well you've already gotten plenty of good advice here on the encounter, but I have to add something. I know it's your old character and you enjoy playing, but you are the DM now and your party is already large enough so I strongly recommend that you retire your character. I know it's tough, but you have to remember that your character is effectively at 10th level while everyone else is 7th-8th, he can quickly outshine them which an NPC should never do. Just take a look around the boards and you'll quickly see all the threads that go along the lines of "My DM has an uber DMPC which is ruining the fun" Don't let your players have a reason to come here and gripe about you. And lastly speaking from exp it's really tough to resist the urge to cheat with your DMPC (you know adding magic items to the treasure that only they can use).
Thuragrun 08-04-04, 02:18 PM	I know the evils of a DMPC. My old PC will be dying during the battle. I want a poetic death for him though. The four ogres will gang up on him. :bigeyes:
Autosponge 08-04-04, 04:44 PM	Originally posted by Thuragrun My first post!! 1. I computed the CR of sixty four hobgoblins (1/2 CR each) and came up with CR 13. Am I right? 12.5 actually so you'd round down to 12. 2. Are the PCs gonna die? completely depends on their strategy, rolls, and how good their AC is (since they aren't dealing with magic, just lots of attacks. If they don't have a way to entangle/fireball or something similar early on they may be in trouble--doesn't mean you shouldn't run the encounter, just let them know that it could be deadly if they play stupid. 3. Is giving the drunken hobgoblins a -1 to hit but +1 to damage a good way to simulate the effects of alcohol. no, giving them only partial actions like zombies would be if they are really drunk and make them always flat-footed. 4. Should I allow the PCs to have their initiative rolls and then have the hobgoblins go after due to suprise. if the PCs get surprised you may have a TPK situation. The party will need distance, cover and at least to NOT be surprised to win/survive. 5. How in heck do I track that many combatants? if they are all the same, it's easy. Just buy some yard sale stickers that you can write hits on and stick to the miniature. When you reach their HP total, take the mini off the table. Otherwise, use that and a spreadsheet to keep things straight since they won't have the same hp. 6. Should I scrap my old DMs adventure and just start over. probably, but if you're new to DM'ing you can learn a lot from running a well-planned adventure, so it sort of depends on how much work was already done and how high the quality was. Thanks for all input!! np