Post/Author/DateTime	Post
snakeheadfish33 03-07-05, 10:55 AM	It happens every time. I and one of my gamers cannot meet eye to eye on the CR for encounters. The books say a 2nd lvl Dwarf Fighter is a CR 2 but one of my players feels the Dwarf is no challenge for a group of four 2nd level characters. He feels the Dwarf should only be worth the XP of a CR 1, not CR 2. See his example below from our current session— "I'm sure that my formula is correct. You basically take a monsters hit-dice + level adjustment & then divide by 2. For example A centaur has 4 hit dice & a level adjustment +2 = 6. Six divided by 2 = 3 which is their CR. So this monster should be fought generally by four 3rd level characters. So like that drow we fought was level 12 + 2 level adjustment = 14. You divide by 2 & my CR would be 7. Which mean that generally, four 7th level guys should fight him (which makes total sense). If his CR was 14, it would mean that four 14th level guys should fight him - this wouldn't be right - His CR should be 7." I want to keep my players happy but I also don't want to go against the correct CR for the group. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Meisterbrau 03-07-05, 11:12 AM	The problem with having only one BBEG at low lvls is that 4 1st lvl characters can easily take a 2-4th level character (providing its not a decked out fighter/barbarian or somthing). The basic problem I run into is that the BBEG gets one action then the pcs get all of theres. So the BBEG might take one guy out but he will most likely be nailed by the remaining party (at least in the low end where the BBEG has like 20 hp or somthing). What I tend to do is throw my PCs up against the BBEG supported by several mid-low CR allies. That way they have to take care of the backup as well as the BBEG. So if yer party thinks killing a single lvl 2 dwarf is to easy back him up with another 3-5 lvl 1 characters (including one cleric) and see if that evens the odds.
snakeheadfish33 03-07-05, 11:28 AM	so your advice for my current game would be, have the Drow Wizard be backed up by ... say ... 2-3 displacer beasts ... or something. Then keep the CR14 with them combined?
Docrailgun 03-07-05, 11:55 AM	I'm sure that there will be folks that will correct me, as I'm not sure that I have the whole CR vs Encounter level vs whatever thing sorted out, but here's what I think: CR (Challenge Rating) is just a way to determine how tough a monster or trap/challenge might be. The DM takes these CRs and modifies them due to various factors to come up with an EL (Encounter Level) for the encounter in question. An EL equal to the average character level of the party ought to take 20% of that party's resources (hit points, consumables, magic). Actually, I'm not sure that last bit is in the DMG, but may be in the RPGA module-writing guidelines. So, a CR 2 creature isn't intended to be much of a challenge for a party with an average level of 2. It's only intended to eat up 20% of the party's resources. So, this party ought to be able to take on 4-5 CR/EL 2 encounters before they have to rest. Even if this isn't exactly correct, it seems to work for me, and it makes sense (to me, of course). YMMV. It happens every time. I and one of my gamers cannot meet eye to eye on the CR for encounters. The books say a 2nd lvl Dwarf Fighter is a CR 2 but one of my players feels the Dwarf is no challenge for a group of four 2nd level characters. He feels the Dwarf should only be worth the XP of a CR 1, not CR 2. See his example below from our current session— "I'm sure that my formula is correct. You basically take a monsters hit-dice + level adjustment & then divide by 2. For example A centaur has 4 hit dice & a level adjustment +2 = 6. Six divided by 2 = 3 which is their CR. So this monster should be fought generally by four 3rd level characters. So like that drow we fought was level 12 + 2 level adjustment = 14. You divide by 2 & my CR would be 7. Which mean that generally, four 7th level guys should fight him (which makes total sense). If his CR was 14, it would mean that four 14th level guys should fight him - this wouldn't be right - His CR should be 7." I want to keep my players happy but I also don't want to go against the correct CR for the group. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Board_Rider 03-07-05, 12:01 PM	Well your friend has a valid point and all but tell him that the CR system is kinda abstract. IMO it is kind of set-up so a party can succeed. At higher levels it begins to balance itself out because creatures have abilities/properties that, if the characters are not prepared properly, can result in a TPK. But remember too that while he says that 4 CR2's can destroy his Dwarf, which may be true, he would be sure to use some of their resources. Especially if prepared.
JonahBlack 03-07-05, 12:01 PM	For creature's that advance "By Character Class", the creature's CR is equal to it's ECL if it has PC classes, or it's ECL - 1 if it has NPC classes. It's not quite so cut and dry with other creatures (such as an aboleth with cleric levels). In that case you need to consider whether the class is 'associated' or not. This is covered, I believe, in the monster manual under 'Advancing monsters' (I don't have my books with me) A party of 4 characters of level X should use 1/4 of their resources (spells, HP etc.) to defeat a creature of CR X. Now, this is on average, and can be a little wonky at low levels. If you think about it, a 2nd level fighter against a 2nd level part isn't likely to drain 1/4 of the party's resources, but it is pretty likely to seriously injure one character before it is taken down (assuming the fight is fair). Therefore, it is an appopriate challenge for a level 2 party. It's not a hard encounter, but neither is it a cake walk. Your player's formula is way off, though. Think of the example of the 14th level (ECL) Drow. I don't know what his class was, but imagine he was a wizard. As a 12th level wizard, he has 6th level spells. He probably has an Int around 20 (from items and level bumps). He can cast a DC 21 Circle of death, killing 12d4 HD worth of characters (avg 30). Half your party will fail (Fighter 7, Con 18 has a +9 Fort save). While the remaining two are trying to get through his Stoneskin, he can pound them with Maximized Fireball (DC18, 60 dmg), or Disintegrate, or baleful polymorph. Clearly 4 7th level characters are no match for this Drow. Now, if they were all level 14, the drow would likely be defeated. Circle of death wouldn't work, and the saves against disintegrate would be in the neighborhood of +15. The party wizard would have competitive spell. Now, the Drow would still get in some licks with his fireballs, and the party wizard and cleric would waste some spells. It's not an all out battle, but, again, it's no cakewalk. (after preview) For a BBEG, you probaly want a CR a level or 3 higher than the party, so a CR 4 for the level 2 party, or multiple attackers. This encounter will force the party to use much more that a 1/4 of the resources, and will be a much greater challenge.
Aricandor 03-07-05, 12:02 PM	Change percentage to 25% and the number of encounters to a flat 4 and you have what the core rules are all balanced on. Practically; 4 ECL 10 characters should face 4 EL 10 encounters between rest periods, and each of these should consume 25% of the party's resources. This means that either one player should be dead/almost dead and the others unscathed or everyone in the party be at about 75% hp, spells and the like. [Edit]Jonah explained it much better than I did. Just remember that you do not send a level 5 psion on a lvl 3 party. (The 5d6+5 damage can easily become too much for them to withstand :))
Bringslite 03-07-05, 12:08 PM	The thing with CRs, especially at low levels, is that they lose thier danger value if the party has ability scores or equipment better than what is suggested by the RAW. Things get out of whack. The system breaks down. Are your party's scores higher than average? Is thier equipment better than what they should have at thier lvl?
JonahBlack 03-07-05, 12:12 PM	Docrailgun is right about the link between CR and EL. For the most part, an encounter with a CR 5 creature is about as tough as an encounter with a total EL of 5. As I understand it, every time you double the number of creatures in an encounter, you add 2 to the EL. So two of your dwarven fighters would be EL 4, and 4 would be EL 6 and so forth (for people who think that 4 CR2s wouldn't pose a significant threat, my players just lost a 6th level character to 4 second level warriors with bastard swords. In one round. A few high rolls is all it takes). It's more complicated when you have monsters of different CRs, or lots of monsters of much lower CR. This takes a little more consideration on the part of the DM.
snakeheadfish33 03-07-05, 12:34 PM	the drow wizard was base class wizard but then went prestige class pale master. His end CR was 14 not sure how the clasess break down exactly with out my paperwork. the character party consisted of only 3 characters, the 4th was disintegrated by a ray earlier in the game. the characters were also drow, with various class levels and the advancement +2 for their race were all 9th level characters. The party was pretty beat down by the end of it, pretty much on their last legs.
Aricandor 03-07-05, 12:51 PM	Ahh, the infamous "not-quite-TPK" in which the players are barely standing. I just love that situation.. :D
BobtheMighty 03-07-05, 12:59 PM	There's one more thing to note about the CRs of NPCs: they tend to have much more loot than typical monsters, and what they have is much more valuable to an adventuring party. A level 5 Human Fighter probably won't be nearly the same threat to a party as a troll, even though the two examples have the same CR. However, that troll will probably have very little loot on him, and even if his lair is found, a standard treasure for that CR probably won't be that impressive. On top of that, it will probably consist mostly of loot that has to be carried and transferred into coins before it can be spent on new equipment. A level 5 Fighter, on the other hand, will have some nice, readily useable loot. I don't remember the sample equipment offhand, but his primary weapon will probably be magic, and he'll probably have some magic armor, among some other minor magic items. Heck, I think even a level 1 NPC fighter comes standard with a masterwork weapon, which is more than any level 1 PC can be outfitted with at character generation. Of course, there are monsters who don't necessarily have class levels who will have sizable treasures; dragons come to mind. Oh, and I echo the statement that BBEGs need minions, even if those minions are very low level.
Bringslite 03-07-05, 01:08 PM	Well that makes sense. A higher then PC lvl challenge that just about kicked thier booty's. So what is the problem? If it was "one" encounter and tested them as "four" normally would? If the rest of your PCs agree with the other PC then start giving less rewards. I think that would be great for you. PC's lvl up too fast as it is. If they want 1/2 exp then that's just peachy! Just keep in mind that the system works pretty good. Give them CRs by the rules and 1/2 the exp. I expect the PC will quickly change his tune when his lvl advancement slows by 1/2. :evillaugh
mercurial67 03-07-05, 01:17 PM	As was stated by a few others before me, a CR rating is supposed to be an easy encounter for four characters of the CR rating level. The encounter should use at most 25% of the resources of the group. For the CR rating to work relatively well, the characters have to be based on a 28pt buy & have character wealth appropriate for their level. Anything else throws the system off. Also, you have to remember the XP is divided evenly between all the characters For my group, the are based on a 32pt buy & there are six characters. I bump their encounters up by two since they are 32pt buy & there are six of them. I also tend to give them magic/money is spurts. Sometimes they have more then what they should have, sometimes they have less.
Sildatorak 03-07-05, 01:29 PM	You basically take a monsters hit-dice + level adjustment & then divide by 2. Though level adjustment and CR are related, it isn't nearly this simple and the (HD+LA)/2=CR is just a coincidence. The CR is based off of the danger of a monster to a group of PC's and the LA is based off of the utility of the monster as a PC. A troll, for example is 6 HD with a level adjustment of +5, but it is only a CR 5 monster. That is because fast healing 5 is probably only going to account for about 20 points of healing during a typical combat, but if the PC survives through a combat, she will end up with full hp within a few minutes after the dust settles. Some other abilities that really bump up LA without increasing CR that much are damage reduction and at will spell-like abilities.
Dreamer3333 03-07-05, 04:51 PM	in our gaming group, we use a CR = ClassLevel-1 formula...to try and balance the Monster vs. classes CR problem. As previously stated a 5th level human <insert class> is less of a challenge than a troll... we realize that lvl-1 isn't a perfect fit either...the CR system is kind of flawed, but all and all not too bad, and a pretty good guide. Another *weird* bit is this : example: Ogre Mages say advancement: by class level. BUT one of the example NPCs online has like 4 levels of sorceror, but then goes on to say that since the ogre mage is basically a "tough a$$" not a caster, those levels don't advance him "enough", so it's CR+2 (1 per 2 sorc levels)... - dreamer
ManinDarkness 03-07-05, 04:57 PM	Rules for class levels in monsters in the MM mention that indeed, unless it previously casted spells as a class, the class levels are no-associated and do not count fully to CR. If four characters encountered four 5th-level NPCs, the odds would probably be the same for either group, making it a encounter level of the party + 4. Following the rules for doubling, or halving in ths case, only one should be at the party level. I think that the reason that class NPCs seem less powerful is because the DM knows his characters less than a player.
Aluroon 03-07-05, 05:13 PM	Ahh, the infamous "not-quite-TPK" in which the players are barely standing. I just love that situation.. :D Most of my encounters end up this way. Am I doing something wrong? Now last weekened was an exception, I killed 4 out of 5 of the party. In the remaining ecounters I was close, half the characters where in negatives or single didgets half the time (and there level 8). In answer to the posters question, your right, he's wrong. Aluroon
FreeTheSlaves 03-07-05, 05:30 PM	I want to keep my players happy but I also don't want to go against the correct CR for the group. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Just follow the book and find a way to politely ignore your player. CRs are not based on any formula other than playtesting and unless you want to do that with your specific makeup of characters in the party, you need to accept them. The odd weak CR will balance with the odd strong one just like treasure awards average out. Don't look for balance in the detail, look for it over the campaign.
snakeheadfish33 03-07-05, 10:57 PM	thanks all. I am still deciding how I will handle this come Wednesday (weekly game night) but all of your input has been priceless. I think I am going to stick to the CR's as they are, using that as a base. Then once the encounter has happened adjust it accordingly if I feel it doesn't match up to how it played out. Then again ...
Nom 03-07-05, 11:30 PM	Level 2 dwarf fighter against a party of 4? Let's start with the assumption that he doesn't get attacked with or successfully saves against any 'save or die' spells (eg sleep, scare). Since he's a fighter (with CR = EL), we can assume he uses elite array and max HP at level 1. He's probably got decent armour (eg banded mail, AC 6, Dex +1), a large shield, and a dwarven war-axe. Let's throw in Weapon Focus too. So, base stats might be: AC 19 (banded mail +6, Dex +1, large shield +2), atk +5 (1d10+2 20/x3), HP 2d10+6 (21 hp). If the party doesn't successfully take him down with Will spells (using resources), it's fairly likely that they'll take at least a couple of hits before they wear through his hp (AC 19, 21 hp), which also uses resources (hp, heal spells, or potions). Whether this is exactly 20% is up for debate, but it's likely to be notably more than 0%. Thus an equivalent CR/EL challenge. The important thing to remember is that EL = party level does not equal fair fight. EL = party level +4 is a "fair fight", which means that it's equal odds the party will lose (TPK). EL = party level should equal "need to put in some effort, but prevail without major losses". Now consider what would happen if said dwarf ambushed the party as they returned from a major encounter low on spells and hp. Would it be a challenge? Definitely. An EL = party level encounter is easy for a fresh party, but dangerous for a wounded one.
grayeyes008 03-07-05, 11:54 PM	Will it seem to me that there is a problem on who running your game. Are you the DM??? So what is a player doing looking at your note. In my game the player don’t know what CR I though at them. But hey maybe your more open than I. Hey and another thing CR do stack. With the number of monster and class add to them. Also make sure your encounter is will planned out. As for your first example your group would roll over that dwarf like freight train.
UltimateReality 03-08-05, 12:18 AM	Will it seem to me that there is a problem on who running your game. Are you the DM???THANK YOU! Someone finally made the point I was hoping to see. Your player may sit there devising alternate CR systems all he likes. The truth of the matter is, you're the DM so you don't have to use his system. Now, I'm not advocating you tell him "I don't care what you think, sod off!" but a gentle reminder may be in order that this is your campaign and if he really wants to try out his idea, he should run his own. In my game the player don’t know what CR I though at them. But hey maybe your more open than I.This is a variable thing. At one point in a campaign I was in, players were getting *****y about the exact CR they were going against, whining that it was always too high/too low. The DM got his revenge by giving them challenges that were "too low" CR by the party's standards and then beating them down with tactics. Whoa, NPCs with Int and Wis scores? Who'da guessed? :rolleyes: "The CR was too high!!" is a common excuse from players when they lose a battle -- at which point the DM started explaining exactly what an encounter's weaknesses were and how to beat them. At one point he even handed out one-shot out-of-campaign challenges, such as: "You must defeat the tarrasque. You are level X and have Y gold." (Actual challenge.) So we all got a schooling in preparation and good tactics. :P Also make sure your encounter is will planned out. As for your first example your group would roll over that dwarf like freight train.If your player is complaining the encounters are too easy, you can also point out that an equal-EL challenge is only supposed to take up 20% of the party's resources and they should be able to take four of them a day. This was something I had problems adjusting for -- spacing encounters out right so they didn't become ridiculously easy or insanely hard. Also, if your party is an unusual size (larger or smaller than 4), or differs from the standard wealth (grossly more or grossly less), this will also affect the "effective" CR of encounters. Giving out high point-buy or dice-rolling for stat gen can also create problems (though not as large as the ones mentioned before, I've found). CR is balanced against 28 point buy I believe. Once you get above 32 p.b./4d6 you start to notice the encounters getting easier...
snakeheadfish33 03-08-05, 12:29 AM	actually i am the DM. I also play a character in the party as well. i always take input from my players and hide nothing from them. we have a very untraditional game to tell you the truth. Ultimately they respect my decisions, but hey, you can't blame them for trying to shape the game to their enjoyment. But same as any game, the DM has final say. it's just that the whole CR whatnot is slightly confusing and I wanted to know how other DM's had been handling the whole situation.
UltimateReality 03-08-05, 01:31 AM	it's just that the whole CR whatnot is slightly confusing and I wanted to know how other DM's had been handling the whole situation.I just use the CR system as listed and have my players vote on 4d6 or 32 point buy at the start of the campaign. I also don't let my parties get any larger than 5 PCs (or any less than 3), and try to avoid NPCs travelling with them as much as possible, so I don't have to adjust CRs. I make sure the wealth evens out every couple levels and the fluctuations aren't too bad, and send them up against stuff maybe +3 their party level, tops, for the BBEG. I find it's no longer much of a problem to find something +2, or even +1 that has abilities they have trouble dealing with. Encounters that are +2 their level consistently beat the tar out of them. At the start of a new adventure, I tally their party wealth and XP, and adjust my encounters accordingly.