Challenge Ratings for Multiple Monsters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Challenge Ratings for Multiple Monsters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Groovydave1962
03-13-04, 10:38 AM OK. So the system I've been using for determining the CR for multiple creatures is to raise the CR by 1 for each doubling of the group, i.e at 2, 4, 8, 16 and 32 creatures. The problem I've just determined with this is that a single 9th level character who actually manages to defeat a group of 32 6 HD creatures is only going to get 5400 EP. This seems low to me, even given the disparity of the relative power levels. I mean, this character could possibly be flanked by 8 creatures at once, in four successive waves. I don't think there is any way he could wipe out 8 creatures per round, even with average HPs of 24 each. This means the battle could go on quite a while. Even if these creatures were doing a piddly 4 points of damage each, that could add up to 32 points each round. I just don't think the hypothetical 9th level character would survive. So the challenge is actually quite high. I think this system came from a spell or something, but I can't remember where we got it. The DMG doesn't seem to address it anywhere that I can find (easily), and there isn't an entry in the index. Anybody got a system they use?
Drone23
03-13-04, 11:01 AM I'm not sure I follow this.

For 5400 xp, he kills 32 creatures. 5400/32=168 xp each. These must be very low CR creatures (below CR 2 at least). But a lower-than-CR 2 creature with 6 HD? What are these creatures by the way? Perhaps you've calculated the award incorrectly. Maybe using the EL instead of the CR for awarding xp?

But, as the DM, it is completely within your right to NOT (yes, not) award xp for an encounter that does not challenge the PCs. See "Assigning Ad Hoc XP Awards" in the DMG (p 167 in the 3.0 DMG and p 29 in the 3.5 DMG).

But my first thought may be correct. The xp was calculated incorrectly. We need more info than you've given.

What are the monsters?

(Edit: Whoops! You raise the EL of the encounter by 2 for each doubling of the number of monsters, not their CR. That may be where the trouble lies in addition to what's above.)
Groovydave1962
03-13-04, 12:03 PM Absolutely correct! That is what I was doing wrong. I was confusing EL and CR and oversimplifying the whole process. I forgot that the the CR chart was meant to reflect a party of four characters of the given level, not one. The type of creature isn't important in my example, especailly since I was doing it wrong, but I was just picking a CR out of thin air for arguments sake. I'm not sure I fully understand the relationship between EL and CR as far as calculating EP. I'll have to reread those sections.
Drone23
03-13-04, 02:05 PM Quickly: CR is for one creature and EL is for multiples, even ones of differing CRs. CR is used for calculating XP, not EL.

I used to make that mistake too. Don't beat yourself up over it, it's a common mistake.

Glad I could help, though.
madoule
03-13-04, 03:03 PM Hey, this is kinda on topic with a question of mine...

I'm trying to figure out (or I think i have figured out)
that a group of 4 players at level 3 or whatever, should be
calculated on the creature encounter chart.. becuase
a group of third level character or what ever level character seem to absolutly demolish with no problem at all their average party level CR monster...

What im trying to say is...

Which way do *you* average your parties level?:confused:

Becuase for me a "average" group of third level players can make mince meat out of any 3rd level monster, perod.

So looking at pg 49 of the DMG 3.5 edition...
Im thinking 4 3rd level (or whatever) chars actual party level should be 7! and lets say that have a combinded magic total of +4 so i'll make them an even 8 level party

therfore a CR 3 monster should only net them only 400 xp or 100 xp per player (not 900 or 225 per player) and doing the math... it takes 3,000 xp to go from 3rd to fourth so ... it would take about thirty encounters of the weak easy 3rd level guys for the "average party" to level up. I think its fair, and makes things run out longer inbetween leveling up IMO.

Also, how does magic factor in for *you*? I think it should! In fact i think magic should be factored n to the avearge by totaling all the magic together (say you have a total of +10) and divinding it by 1/4 and add it to the characters level.
Groovydave1962
03-13-04, 03:05 PM OK, so CR is for XP, EL is not. What is EL for? I mean, what purpose does it serve for me to know what the EL is? I guess to guage the encounter versus the party. But does that mean that there is no way to calculate XP for a group of creatures without doing each one individually? This begins to get tedious when you have to do each characters XP individually for each creature they face divided by the number of characters. Wow. OK, so I suppose can determine the XP for each character based on each creature defeated, total that, then divide by the number of party members. I guess trying to set a CR to a group of creatures is just too tricky. Hmmmm....
madoule
03-13-04, 03:30 PM CR=Creature Ratiting
EL=Encounter level (total of CR)
so...
back to pg 49 (3.5)
lets see.. a group of 2 CR 2 monsters = EL 4 (look on the chart on pg 38 for CR 4 award)
okay group of 4 CR 2 = 6
8 CR 2 = 8
16 CR 2... brick wall! the chart doesn't go that high!
so, instead look at 2 CR 8's which = 10
32 (which is two CR 10's) = 12
64 (two CR 12's) = 14
So looking at the chart it was a EL 14 (so now look at the chart for CR 14) the one 9th level guy should get 16,200XP for that battle of 64 CR 2's, or 8,100 if you used 32 of them, or 4,050 for 16, or 1,800 for 8 of the beasties (anything below that is pretty small)
Nom
03-13-04, 06:04 PM Originally posted by Groovydave1962
OK, so CR is for XP, EL is not.CR is a guesstimate of the power of a monster. EL is a guesstimate of the power of an encounter.

The game attempts to be balanced such that an encounter whose EL is equal to the level of a party of four characters (of the same level) will on average use up 20% of the parties resources. Or, to put it another way, the party has sufficient resources to face four such encounters, but would be under-resourced to face a fifth.

For a single opponent vs four opponets, EL is equal to CR. For multiple identical opponents, every doubling of the number of opponents adds 2 to EL. Mixed opponents are trickier; experiment to find what works.

Here's the important bit:

By the DMG, only CR has an in-game effect. Experience for "overcoming" encounters is calculated by, for each character, comparing CR to character level and dividing the resulting XP by party size. CR is calculated on a per monster / trap / ... basis. EL is purely a game-balancing aid.

Note that if you have multiple identical monsters or identical characters, you can multiply the results as required. 6 CR 2 monsters vs 4 level 4 characters (6 * CR 2 -> EL 5, so a tough encounter) is easy to do XP for: 600 (CR 2 vs level 4) * 6 (monsters) / 4 (players) each.

EL has no in-game effect; it's a ready reckoner to help the less experienced DM. With practice, a DM can eyeball the creature and player capabilities and make a pretty good guess as to the result. If this is not in line with the nominal EL, that's OK.
Groovydave1962
03-13-04, 06:48 PM very succinctly put. I think a lot of the confusion in this area results from the fact that this information is scattered through at least two books and over a couple of chapters in the DMG. I'll probably print out that post as a reference.
airhead
03-15-04, 10:33 AM Groovydave1962, that is add two (2) to the el for each doubling of the number of encounters.

Ok, check out Tierra Starr's/Arcady's XP/encounter calculator (see sig)

Also:
Quick lesson:
Think of an average party of 4 at 5th level. They meet an 5th level NPC. This is a balanced encounter epl of 5 vs. el of 5. The party should not have a lot of dificulty in killing the monster, but should use up some resources (spells, hit points, charges, potions, etc.). A fresh party would not find this difficult, but repeated encounters would become a problem as they would run out of healing spells, etc.

Now, the same party meets 2 npc's each 5th level. EPL is still 5, but el is 7 (double the cr, add 2 to the el). The party should be able to handle this, but will use up much more resources (possibly including a party member)

Finally, the party meets itself, 4 other 5th levels. EPL is still 5, but the EL is 9 (again doubled from 2 to 4, add 2 more to el). This encounter is going to depend on tactics and luck of the dice. A very good chance that a party memeber or more will be killed. A TPK (total party kill) is a possibility.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Groovydave1962 03-13-04, 10:38 AM	OK. So the system I've been using for determining the CR for multiple creatures is to raise the CR by 1 for each doubling of the group, i.e at 2, 4, 8, 16 and 32 creatures. The problem I've just determined with this is that a single 9th level character who actually manages to defeat a group of 32 6 HD creatures is only going to get 5400 EP. This seems low to me, even given the disparity of the relative power levels. I mean, this character could possibly be flanked by 8 creatures at once, in four successive waves. I don't think there is any way he could wipe out 8 creatures per round, even with average HPs of 24 each. This means the battle could go on quite a while. Even if these creatures were doing a piddly 4 points of damage each, that could add up to 32 points each round. I just don't think the hypothetical 9th level character would survive. So the challenge is actually quite high. I think this system came from a spell or something, but I can't remember where we got it. The DMG doesn't seem to address it anywhere that I can find (easily), and there isn't an entry in the index. Anybody got a system they use?
Drone23 03-13-04, 11:01 AM	I'm not sure I follow this. For 5400 xp, he kills 32 creatures. 5400/32=168 xp each. These must be very low CR creatures (below CR 2 at least). But a lower-than-CR 2 creature with 6 HD? What are these creatures by the way? Perhaps you've calculated the award incorrectly. Maybe using the EL instead of the CR for awarding xp? But, as the DM, it is completely within your right to NOT (yes, not) award xp for an encounter that does not challenge the PCs. See "Assigning Ad Hoc XP Awards" in the DMG (p 167 in the 3.0 DMG and p 29 in the 3.5 DMG). But my first thought may be correct. The xp was calculated incorrectly. We need more info than you've given. What are the monsters? (Edit: Whoops! You raise the EL of the encounter by 2 for each doubling of the number of monsters, not their CR. That may be where the trouble lies in addition to what's above.)
Groovydave1962 03-13-04, 12:03 PM	Absolutely correct! That is what I was doing wrong. I was confusing EL and CR and oversimplifying the whole process. I forgot that the the CR chart was meant to reflect a party of four characters of the given level, not one. The type of creature isn't important in my example, especailly since I was doing it wrong, but I was just picking a CR out of thin air for arguments sake. I'm not sure I fully understand the relationship between EL and CR as far as calculating EP. I'll have to reread those sections.
Drone23 03-13-04, 02:05 PM	Quickly: CR is for one creature and EL is for multiples, even ones of differing CRs. CR is used for calculating XP, not EL. I used to make that mistake too. Don't beat yourself up over it, it's a common mistake. Glad I could help, though.
madoule 03-13-04, 03:03 PM	Hey, this is kinda on topic with a question of mine... I'm trying to figure out (or I think i have figured out) that a group of 4 players at level 3 or whatever, should be calculated on the creature encounter chart.. becuase a group of third level character or what ever level character seem to absolutly demolish with no problem at all their average party level CR monster... What im trying to say is... Which way do you average your parties level?:confused: Becuase for me a "average" group of third level players can make mince meat out of any 3rd level monster, perod. So looking at pg 49 of the DMG 3.5 edition... Im thinking 4 3rd level (or whatever) chars actual party level should be 7! and lets say that have a combinded magic total of +4 so i'll make them an even 8 level party therfore a CR 3 monster should only net them only 400 xp or 100 xp per player (not 900 or 225 per player) and doing the math... it takes 3,000 xp to go from 3rd to fourth so ... it would take about thirty encounters of the weak easy 3rd level guys for the "average party" to level up. I think its fair, and makes things run out longer inbetween leveling up IMO. Also, how does magic factor in for you? I think it should! In fact i think magic should be factored n to the avearge by totaling all the magic together (say you have a total of +10) and divinding it by 1/4 and add it to the characters level.
Groovydave1962 03-13-04, 03:05 PM	OK, so CR is for XP, EL is not. What is EL for? I mean, what purpose does it serve for me to know what the EL is? I guess to guage the encounter versus the party. But does that mean that there is no way to calculate XP for a group of creatures without doing each one individually? This begins to get tedious when you have to do each characters XP individually for each creature they face divided by the number of characters. Wow. OK, so I suppose can determine the XP for each character based on each creature defeated, total that, then divide by the number of party members. I guess trying to set a CR to a group of creatures is just too tricky. Hmmmm....
madoule 03-13-04, 03:30 PM	CR=Creature Ratiting EL=Encounter level (total of CR) so... back to pg 49 (3.5) lets see.. a group of 2 CR 2 monsters = EL 4 (look on the chart on pg 38 for CR 4 award) okay group of 4 CR 2 = 6 8 CR 2 = 8 16 CR 2... brick wall! the chart doesn't go that high! so, instead look at 2 CR 8's which = 10 32 (which is two CR 10's) = 12 64 (two CR 12's) = 14 So looking at the chart it was a EL 14 (so now look at the chart for CR 14) the one 9th level guy should get 16,200XP for that battle of 64 CR 2's, or 8,100 if you used 32 of them, or 4,050 for 16, or 1,800 for 8 of the beasties (anything below that is pretty small)
Nom 03-13-04, 06:04 PM	Originally posted by Groovydave1962 OK, so CR is for XP, EL is not.CR is a guesstimate of the power of a monster. EL is a guesstimate of the power of an encounter. The game attempts to be balanced such that an encounter whose EL is equal to the level of a party of four characters (of the same level) will on average use up 20% of the parties resources. Or, to put it another way, the party has sufficient resources to face four such encounters, but would be under-resourced to face a fifth. For a single opponent vs four opponets, EL is equal to CR. For multiple identical opponents, every doubling of the number of opponents adds 2 to EL. Mixed opponents are trickier; experiment to find what works. Here's the important bit: By the DMG, only CR has an in-game effect. Experience for "overcoming" encounters is calculated by, for each character, comparing CR to character level and dividing the resulting XP by party size. CR is calculated on a per monster / trap / ... basis. EL is purely a game-balancing aid. Note that if you have multiple identical monsters or identical characters, you can multiply the results as required. 6 CR 2 monsters vs 4 level 4 characters (6 * CR 2 -> EL 5, so a tough encounter) is easy to do XP for: 600 (CR 2 vs level 4) * 6 (monsters) / 4 (players) each. EL has no in-game effect; it's a ready reckoner to help the less experienced DM. With practice, a DM can eyeball the creature and player capabilities and make a pretty good guess as to the result. If this is not in line with the nominal EL, that's OK.
Groovydave1962 03-13-04, 06:48 PM	very succinctly put. I think a lot of the confusion in this area results from the fact that this information is scattered through at least two books and over a couple of chapters in the DMG. I'll probably print out that post as a reference.
airhead 03-15-04, 10:33 AM	Groovydave1962, that is add two (2) to the el for each doubling of the number of encounters. Ok, check out Tierra Starr's/Arcady's XP/encounter calculator (see sig) Also: Quick lesson: Think of an average party of 4 at 5th level. They meet an 5th level NPC. This is a balanced encounter epl of 5 vs. el of 5. The party should not have a lot of dificulty in killing the monster, but should use up some resources (spells, hit points, charges, potions, etc.). A fresh party would not find this difficult, but repeated encounters would become a problem as they would run out of healing spells, etc. Now, the same party meets 2 npc's each 5th level. EPL is still 5, but el is 7 (double the cr, add 2 to the el). The party should be able to handle this, but will use up much more resources (possibly including a party member) Finally, the party meets itself, 4 other 5th levels. EPL is still 5, but the EL is 9 (again doubled from 2 to 4, add 2 more to el). This encounter is going to depend on tactics and luck of the dice. A very good chance that a party memeber or more will be killed. A TPK (total party kill) is a possibility.