Challenge Ratings [Archive] - Wizards Community

Challenge Ratings [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tsank
08-14-06, 09:04 AM I'm currently working on a campaign and I've always had trouble balancing out a good challenge for the party. Because i tend to use my own Chracter builds over monsters to challenge the party I'm not really sure as to at what level the BBEG should be at in order to challenge the party but not obliterate them. So what i want to know is at what level do I have a to build a character in order to challenge a party of 3 - 4 6th level characters. And how much I should raise that BBEG's level as the PC's level up. Hope this makes sense. PLEASE HELP THIS WOULD BE DM!
Cifer
08-14-06, 09:52 AM It's relatively simple: Character levels directly translate into challenge ratings when they are useful (one level of wizard on a INT8-ogre is not useful).
A challenging, but definitely manageable encounter usually is about the same CR as the partie's level, meaning 6 or maybe 7 at the moment. 8 and 9 (average party level +2 or +3) are for truly challenging fights that might go bad for the party, anything higher usually asks for a total party kill (reminds me of a cleric five levels above our party the DM sent us... blasphemy is a bad thing that ought to not exist...)

If you want to combine several monsters (or characters) refer to the DMG-table that explains how you calculate an encounter level from individual challenge ratings.
theblindman
08-14-06, 10:01 AM To get a truely boss-battle feel, I usually make the BBEG two or three levels higher than the average level of the party. In your case that would be CR 8 or CR 9.

But as Cifer said, a lot of the challenge depends on the way you set up the encounter. (intelligence 8 wizard was a good example) Similarly, an encounter with the solo arch-nemesis Wizard will not last long, unless there's an obstacle (a river, or ten orcs) that stops the tank from charging into melee. Wizards as a class aren't designed to be in combat, so even a 10th level wizard wouldn't last very long against a 6th level party if the fight devolved into melee. And the DMG has a good example somewhere - an enounter with ten orcs is a lot easier if you can pour boiling oil on them.

So it's not just about class levels, it's also about the way you design the enounter.
Dux_is_me
08-14-06, 10:10 AM I remember reading about relevant and non-relevant (or something like that) class levels on monsters, in the MM I believe. Non-relevant levels (like the aforementioned ogre wizard example) add 1/2 to the monster's CR, until the CR is twice the CR of the monster with no class levels. Any class level beyond that adds 1 to the CR (instead of 1/2). Thus, an ogre (CR 2) can add 4 levels of wizard at +1/2 CR each (until its CR becomes 4), and then any wizard level adds +1 to the CR.

But this seems to not matter anyway, as you prefer to use NPCs for BBEGs. Thus, go with what Cifer said. There's a table for that in the DMG too (table 3-2 in the Spanish ed., dunno about the English ed., but it's probably the same). I'd go with 2 or 3 higher than the party's level, thus CR 8 or 9. A party of 3 characters is significantly weaker than a party of 4 characters of the same level, so maybe the CR should be 7 to 8.

Edit/ Right, wizard BBEGs often need additional strategies such as minions or sidekicks. A wizard 7 with two fighters 5 is roughly a level 9 encounter. A wizard 6 and two fighters 4 is about level 7-8. (Or so the DMG table says.)
nastynate
08-14-06, 10:45 AM Character levels translate directly to CR. So a level 4 fighter is a CR 4 challenge for a party of 4 characters of level 4. A CR 4 encounter should cost the PCs 25% of their resources.

What you are probobaly looking to do is put a level 8 "boss" against your party of 3 sixth level player characters, with a bunch of cronies (5 is good) around level 3. This will give your PCs a decent challenge without totally ripping them to pieces.

If the BBEG is supposed to be a recurring threat, keep leveling him up each time the party gains a level, so he always stays 2 levels higher than they are. Remember to allow the PCs to have a chance to kill him though (even if you plan to use him again); if their tactics, actions, and die rolls should result in his death, the players should be rewarded justly.

Recurring enemies can be great, but they can frustrating too. You have to balance things just right. Plan his escape before hand, and have a back-up plan if it fails. The players need to feel like can beat him, even if they can't, and he needs to be interesting, memorable, and a worthy challenge.

Hope that helps. :D
Muspelheim
08-14-06, 02:26 PM Another thing to look out for is the way you generate characters. CRs are designed with 25-point buy in mind, so if you use a higher point buy or another way which generates high ability scores, then you might want to adjust CRs a little bit to better challenge the party.

Also, I find that the character level = CR is a bit problematic, especially at higher levels. The thing is that, say, a level 11 fighter-type really needs alot of gear to be effective. But if he has got all the necessary gear to actually be effective at a level around CR 11, what happens when the PCs defeat him? They get all that gear to sell or use, which can upset the wealth balance very quickly, especially if you run encounters with humanoid class-levelled opponents often.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tsank 08-14-06, 09:04 AM	I'm currently working on a campaign and I've always had trouble balancing out a good challenge for the party. Because i tend to use my own Chracter builds over monsters to challenge the party I'm not really sure as to at what level the BBEG should be at in order to challenge the party but not obliterate them. So what i want to know is at what level do I have a to build a character in order to challenge a party of 3 - 4 6th level characters. And how much I should raise that BBEG's level as the PC's level up. Hope this makes sense. PLEASE HELP THIS WOULD BE DM!
Cifer 08-14-06, 09:52 AM	It's relatively simple: Character levels directly translate into challenge ratings when they are useful (one level of wizard on a INT8-ogre is not useful). A challenging, but definitely manageable encounter usually is about the same CR as the partie's level, meaning 6 or maybe 7 at the moment. 8 and 9 (average party level +2 or +3) are for truly challenging fights that might go bad for the party, anything higher usually asks for a total party kill (reminds me of a cleric five levels above our party the DM sent us... blasphemy is a bad thing that ought to not exist...) If you want to combine several monsters (or characters) refer to the DMG-table that explains how you calculate an encounter level from individual challenge ratings.
theblindman 08-14-06, 10:01 AM	To get a truely boss-battle feel, I usually make the BBEG two or three levels higher than the average level of the party. In your case that would be CR 8 or CR 9. But as Cifer said, a lot of the challenge depends on the way you set up the encounter. (intelligence 8 wizard was a good example) Similarly, an encounter with the solo arch-nemesis Wizard will not last long, unless there's an obstacle (a river, or ten orcs) that stops the tank from charging into melee. Wizards as a class aren't designed to be in combat, so even a 10th level wizard wouldn't last very long against a 6th level party if the fight devolved into melee. And the DMG has a good example somewhere - an enounter with ten orcs is a lot easier if you can pour boiling oil on them. So it's not just about class levels, it's also about the way you design the enounter.
Dux_is_me 08-14-06, 10:10 AM	I remember reading about relevant and non-relevant (or something like that) class levels on monsters, in the MM I believe. Non-relevant levels (like the aforementioned ogre wizard example) add 1/2 to the monster's CR, until the CR is twice the CR of the monster with no class levels. Any class level beyond that adds 1 to the CR (instead of 1/2). Thus, an ogre (CR 2) can add 4 levels of wizard at +1/2 CR each (until its CR becomes 4), and then any wizard level adds +1 to the CR. But this seems to not matter anyway, as you prefer to use NPCs for BBEGs. Thus, go with what Cifer said. There's a table for that in the DMG too (table 3-2 in the Spanish ed., dunno about the English ed., but it's probably the same). I'd go with 2 or 3 higher than the party's level, thus CR 8 or 9. A party of 3 characters is significantly weaker than a party of 4 characters of the same level, so maybe the CR should be 7 to 8. Edit/ Right, wizard BBEGs often need additional strategies such as minions or sidekicks. A wizard 7 with two fighters 5 is roughly a level 9 encounter. A wizard 6 and two fighters 4 is about level 7-8. (Or so the DMG table says.)
nastynate 08-14-06, 10:45 AM	Character levels translate directly to CR. So a level 4 fighter is a CR 4 challenge for a party of 4 characters of level 4. A CR 4 encounter should cost the PCs 25% of their resources. What you are probobaly looking to do is put a level 8 "boss" against your party of 3 sixth level player characters, with a bunch of cronies (5 is good) around level 3. This will give your PCs a decent challenge without totally ripping them to pieces. If the BBEG is supposed to be a recurring threat, keep leveling him up each time the party gains a level, so he always stays 2 levels higher than they are. Remember to allow the PCs to have a chance to kill him though (even if you plan to use him again); if their tactics, actions, and die rolls should result in his death, the players should be rewarded justly. Recurring enemies can be great, but they can frustrating too. You have to balance things just right. Plan his escape before hand, and have a back-up plan if it fails. The players need to feel like can beat him, even if they can't, and he needs to be interesting, memorable, and a worthy challenge. Hope that helps. :D
Muspelheim 08-14-06, 02:26 PM	Another thing to look out for is the way you generate characters. CRs are designed with 25-point buy in mind, so if you use a higher point buy or another way which generates high ability scores, then you might want to adjust CRs a little bit to better challenge the party. Also, I find that the character level = CR is a bit problematic, especially at higher levels. The thing is that, say, a level 11 fighter-type really needs alot of gear to be effective. But if he has got all the necessary gear to actually be effective at a level around CR 11, what happens when the PCs defeat him? They get all that gear to sell or use, which can upset the wealth balance very quickly, especially if you run encounters with humanoid class-levelled opponents often.