Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Keifer0999 12-05-04, 11:36 PM	Ok here's the situation: a group of high level characters with about 50-100 guardsmen are guarding a fort from an attack by 20,000 orcs, humans, undead demons and giants, with spellcasters etc and demons, a nightwalker and a couple of vampires. My players are throwing down Glyphs all over, putting charm monsters etc on them, sleep spells to be triggered, spears with continual lights. They are going to use Blizzard spells to slow down the enemy's advance. They will use consecrate spells and forbiddance spells. What would YOU do to attack the fort? And Defend...and counters and counter to counters etc. I'm coming up with stuff but outside help is always appreciated. Spellcasters on the evil side: 3 13th level clerics, 2 9th level and 4 5th level ( of Iuz). They have 18th level Evoker, 1 14th level Vampire Mage, 1 9th level vampire mage, and 4-6 mages of 5th-9th level. 1 15th level Necromancer. They have 1 nightwalker, 2 glabrezu's, 4 Vrocks Allowable books are Complete Divine, Warrior, Miniature's Handbook, Corebooks, and Book of Exalted Deeds. Finally..the badguys have several magic orbs of power that let any caster cast arcane spells as a 20th level mage with a 20 INT. They have an orb of abjuration, necromancy, enchantment, divination, transmutation. The fort is a small castle, that can only be attacked through a pass ( so only one wall section can be assaulted). It has 4 towers, a gatehouse and several warmachines. Thanks for any ideas.
Mordmorgan the Mad 12-05-04, 11:52 PM	To attack, I'd take about 13 bulettes, stick them in a bag of holding, give the bag to a barbarian scout, cast invisibility on him, have him run up to the fort carrying a stone with the spell sympathy cast on it. He throws the stone over the wall, releases the bullets and runs like hell. Once he's far enough away, the wizard dismisses the sympathy spell, and the bulettes run amok.
Primal 12-06-04, 03:35 AM	They could use low-level undead to clear the way of glyphs and traps along the pass. A few attacks by the Orcs should provide plenty of corpses for animation. They could use spells that allow movement through the air (e.g. Air Walk for the Clerics) or ethereal movement (like Ethereal Jaunt) to move a few crack troops within the fort, with the aim of oppening the gates. Spells that allow movement through the earth fast could also be used to transfer troops from another side, gaining surprise. More traditional approaches would be to use the Vrocks for example, wquiped with long-range magical items (e.g. wands) to take out any war-machines on the towers, plus rain havoc on any mundane defenders during an attack. Finally, unless the fort is located in a dead end (in which case it would not guard anything) there should be other approaches, even if it will take days to circle around. Some units should be sent the long way around, even if they arrive after the fort has fallen.
Vharuck 12-06-04, 03:38 AM	I'd use invisible flying units that are expendable to fly over the castle, then drop alchemist's fire or tanglefoot bags or [insert random nasty thing here].
Vanigo 12-06-04, 05:39 PM	I love doing these. :cracks knuckles: So, I'm going to need some details. How high level is the party? (If it's below 15, forget it; the evoker could take the fort by himself.) How many of them are there? What classes? A high level fighter is almost inconsequential in a siege due to the fact that he can only be in one place at any given time, but a high level spellcaster or marshal can change the course of history. How long does each side have to prepare? What kind of resourses does each side have? Item creation feats? How good are the guardsmen? The orcs/humans/undead/giants? How many giants, and what kind? What spells do the magic orbs give access to? Can one spellcaster use more than one? How exactly is the fort laid out? (Keeping in mind of course that they're likely to use wall of stone to remodel some.) What's the surrounding terrain like? The players are using forbiddance, which makes this nontrivial. A teleporting force can ruin any defender's day in a hurry, but forbiddance prevents that, and also stops ethereal intruders. It'll also hedge out most lower-level troops. If they think to slap a repulsion on top of it, they'll be all but useless. How far out are they doing this? They'll definetly do the entire interior of the fort, but extending the area past the moat is quite worthwhile. The spellcasters are going to have to do a lot of dispelling if they want their troops to do much, and that's going to leave them vulnerable to various nastiness. The players are probably going to come up with some ways to deal with flying creatures/troops. However, they probably aren't going to come up with ways to deal with burrowing creatures, and even if they think of it, it's very hard to do. Earth elementals and xorn are one of the best ways to crack open fortresses. Divination spells are probably going to be flying all over the place from both sides. Likewise, abjuration to prevent scrying and the like is a very good idea. Information is a weapon. Remember, catapults have better range than fireballs. +1 catapults of distance have even better range (and only take eight days to enchant). Magical catapult ammunition is a good way to ruin anyone's day long before they get to ruin yours. Booby traps. Magical and nonmagical. Pit traps, fire traps, snares, symbols, deadfalls, prismatic walls, caltrops, spike stones, and anything else your players' twisted little minds can concieve. Expect to see them. Have detect magic running on the front lines at all times, at the very least. Keep in mind also that this is going to be hell on morale. The players are probably going to run some harrassment and sabatoge missions while the attackers are on the march. They're pretty likely to steal some of those orbs while they're at it, and slaughter hundreds of troops. They'll take down a few of the spellcasters, too, if they can. And they'll probably need to. Neither side should count on invisibility too much. See invisibility extends as far as the target can see in 3.5. Permanent walls of force are great fortifications. They're also expensive, though. Your players may or may not use them. Your players are probably going to have an exit strategy, likely one that involves teleportation. What you do with it is up to you. Remember, forcecage is fatal against vampires in the open if they can't get out. Gaseous form can probably slip some people in. The question is what they can do once they're there. If the party detects them soon enough, they'll do very little harm. Few spells are better at wiping out grunts than cloudkill. One cloudkill drifting through the ranks of an army can kill hundreds of soldiers. The attackers will need to be able to recognise and run away from them. (Well, except for the undead, of course.) Disintegrate is an integral part of any high-magic siege. There's simply no other way you'll bring the walls down faster than they can be repaired by make whole and wall of stone. If the players can steal the transmutation orb and kill the two stronger mages, they've won. The grunts probably aren't going to be of much importance in this battle until the walls are breached. A few permanent walls of fire can render ladders useless, so you'll have to batter the walls down. The spellcasters, giants, nightwalker, and glabrezus are the only ones that really matter; the vrocks may play a bit role. It pretty much comes down to whether the party can bring them down before they destroy the walls. If they do, they can wipe out the 20,000 grunts pretty much at their leisure.
LordArkan 12-06-04, 06:51 PM	How much of the attacking force is undead? There are a number of very useful things those guys can do, you know. :D I'll get to those things in a moment, but I also want to point out that IMC I've "fixed" Horrid Wilting to 2 targets/level, because as written it can hit all 20,000 people in your attacking force. What the crap? Ok, now for those undead! - Why risk one of your units capable of flight to drop stuff on the enemy, when you can just use skeletons instead? Load them up with Stonebreaker Acid, Alchemist's Fire, etc, then launch them into the city via catapult. Bonus points if you give them a Fire Trapped book to hold shut (which of course, would fall open and explode once they hit something and shatter). Of course, you could also give them a few bottles of Troglodyte sweat or some similar liquid. Ewww... - What's the terrain like? Undead don't tire or have any self-preservation, so they've got no problem mining away enough of that mountain to cause an avalanche onto that nearby fort/city/etc. - Of course, there's always the good old troop transports. Get a few Zombified Dire Elephants and load them up with small/medium skeletons. - Those symbols, explosive runes, and glyphs work both ways, you know. Put them on several of those attacking undead. - Need a way into the city itself? Zombie Umber Hulks still keep their burrow speed. Failing that, just start handing out picks to the skeletons... - Taking the Skeleton Artillery concept a bit further, you can cover them in pitch and oil. After lobbing several of those, send in the exploding guys. :D I can come up with some more, but would need more information. :cool:
Dash Branaghan 12-06-04, 06:54 PM	#1) Put troops with Rings of Featherfall into catapults and then cast Improved Invisibility on them. Fire them into the fort, along with some rocks; the rocks will hit the ground, but the troops will fall gentle inside and take up their positions. #2) Undead used as fodder to set off the glyphs, etc. #3) Raising the dead as they fall (have plenty of scrolls of animate dead so the clerics don't have to waste their spells). #4) Siege machines. Nothing like Ballista, trebuchet, and catapults to take down the walls of the fort and provide holes. #5) Tactics. Have attacks on all sides, so the defenders are split along all four walls. If some positions aren't assailable, utilize flyers (mages with Improved Invis and Flight firing wands of Fireball). #6) Undermine the walls. The bulettes can be utilized, but really, just get undead digging their way underneath. Have them branch out once they reach the walls and dig out the ground underneath them...the siege weapons will short work the walls. #7) Disease...catapult bodies bloated with disease into the Fort. The more vile the disease, the better. #8) Surround the fort and let them run out of food for awhile. Sieges are always good that way, and lets face it...create food and water will not feed everyone there. So starve them into submission. #9) Archers. Out of 20 000 orcs, make even 1000 of them Heavy Crossbowmen. Dash
Dash Branaghan 12-06-04, 06:57 PM	- Why risk one of your units capable of flight to drop stuff on the enemy, when you can just use skeletons instead? Load them up with Stonebreaker Acid, Alchemist's Fire, etc, then launch them into the city via catapult. Bonus points if you give them a Fire Trapped book to hold shut (which of course, would fall open and explode once they hit something and shatter). Of course, you could also give them a few bottles of Troglodyte sweat or some similar liquid. Ewww... Another option, since the skeletons are going to die anyway, is to use one of the ointments from the Libris Mortis (GREAT BOOK!!!) that causes the skeletons to explode in bone fragments doing 1pt of piercing damage to everyone within 5'. That can add up if you fire 100 skeletons into an area. Dash
LordArkan 12-06-04, 07:29 PM	Another option, since the skeletons are going to die anyway, is to use one of the ointments from the Libris Mortis (GREAT BOOK!!!) that causes the skeletons to explode in bone fragments doing 1pt of piercing damage to everyone within 5'. That can add up if you fire 100 skeletons into an area. Dash AWESOME! I still hadn't finished reading through all the items due to the other great things in that book! :D I'm still trying to find a copy of the Complete Necromancer's Handbook from 2nd ed, but Libris Mortis gives me some great tools to work with. I am surprised that Mr. Cordell didn't throw some more stuff from the Black Academy and the Return to the Tomb, like Moilian Zombies. :eek: Seriously, though, with the Winter Wight in the epic handbook, Blackfire in Complete Arcane, and several monsters in Libris Mortis, the only major things not reprinted at this point are the Moilians :eek: and the Negative Energy Elementals.
krichaiushii 12-06-04, 07:32 PM	Starving out is an unlikely choice, as the invaders need to eat and the defenders likely have a cleric of high enough level to keep everyone fed... at the expense of having many of his spell slots used casting Create Food and Water. Disease is not a bad plan. Poison might work, too. One of the vampires could slip in via gaseous form and poison the water supply with something nasty and/or diseased... or fun, like a green slime. Speaking of slime, is it likely that in your world slimes and oozes and puddings can be trapped in glass spheres and launched via catapult into the defending keep? That would certainly keep defenders occupied. Perhaps the glabrezus could use their monthly wish spells to wreak some havoc, after all, the defenders falling should suffice for pain and suffering. A well-timed dance of ruin (perhaps under cover of the evoker throwing some nasty area effect spells) could be nasty. Both demon types have greater teleport as an option. If possible, the teleport in, wreak some havoc, and pop out. If they could call up some jovocs (MMII) for support, that would be dandy. The nightwalker's desecrating aura will suppress any hallowed or consecrate effects it comes across, which may be enough to let the nastier undead through. Plus, its fear gaze should help clear the walls. Lastly, sending this beast in should trigger all of the glyphs, charms, and such... and it can crush the light-spears. By the sound of it, your PCs expecting more living instead of undead attackers. He might even call up some incorporeal undead to wreak havoc for him. And he can do this every night. SCRY, SCRY, SCRY. Information is power. Both sides should be doing all they can to recon the opposition to learn strengths/weaknesses/targets for a teleport-in-kill-and-teleport-out mission or three. Gaseous Form or Invisibility to move around the interior, or just move to a surrounding height and look down and into the fortress. Speaking of which, the surrounding heights make wonderful locations for avalanches to be triggered. What are the races, classes, and levels of the defenders, or at least the defending PCs? This knowledge will help drive what they might do.
WunderGoat 12-06-04, 08:10 PM	First of all, to quote Terry Goodkind, "The purpose of magic in war is to counter magic". Those high level mages should first work on knocking out teh forbidance spells and the like. Next, they should use a gate spell or the like to dump troops into the fort. Siege engines will be effective, but as said before, wall of stone will counter it, for a while. Undead never tire, so you can pummel that wall 24 hours a day and force the enemy mages to waste spell slots on wall of stone. Then just hit em with troops. Offensively you can use walls of stone at a slant to make ramps for your troops, or perhaps wall of iron. Hit them every few hours with troops, but not too many. Just keep the defenders from sleeping (and thus keep the enemy casters from regianing spells). Use expendable troops at first, then switch to the goodies. As soon as you realize that they are out of spells, hit em hard and fast. Keep your best mages in reserve, and the medium level ones ready to stop enemy raids into the camp. Low level mages and all clerics medium and lower should accompany main assaults. On day one you should go out and find all those little magic traps and other nasties and dispel them. Use your weakest summons to find the traps (and keep the good summons for those important assaults). Above all, do not waste that 20k army on one huge frontal assault, or your PCs will eliminate it much more easily (fireballs and siege engines love dense formations, as do archers) If the fort is absolutly needed for the undead to capture(i.e. reinforcements will come though), then by all means lay siege with the full force. If its not, use wall of stone to walll up the pass and keep the PC's minions inside and move on. 20k is a lot, but you still cannot afford any phyrric victories, unless this is the most resistance you will encounter. You can bypass the fort with gate spells and move most of the army through without any trouble. Leave a small force to monitor the PCs and keep them thinking the army is out there (also use some illusion to fool scrying), and use the Vrock's teleport to relay messages to the main army. If the PCs attack, pull out the troops with a gate.
krichaiushii 12-06-04, 08:30 PM	Oh, about those orbs, can each one be used multiple times, or are they one-shot items? I ask because Mordenkainen's Disjunction is an abjuration that will take care of the assorted glyphs, forbiddances, and the like. As well as pesky defending magics that might allow for the hitting of undead troops. If the orbs can be used multiple times, just have a vampire move in under cover of darkness and Improved Invisibility, then blanket the area in front of the walls and up to the walls with MDJ. When complete, slip away under gaseous form. If the defenders are good, you can hit them with a moral dilemma. Presumably the invading army has attacked other places enroute to the fortress. If they took any prisoners, they may ransom them for the fortress. It may not work, but you could get some interesting RP (which is more important - the few prisoners, or the many that the fortress protects - both within AND beyond its walls).
Bringslite 12-06-04, 09:06 PM	What lvl are your PC's. It is possible for brave, well trained, soldiers can hold large armies at bay for a time. You are talking about 100 to 1 odds here though. Yes, your PC's are high lvl but it sounds like the enemy has many high lvl baddies also. How do just your PC's look to stack against just the toughest evil baddies? Then imagine 200 regular soldiers vs. the regular orc army of 20,000. If the evils are played even ineptly, this looks like one doooommmed fort.
mycroft65536 12-06-04, 10:21 PM	Attackers- Necklace of sonicballs, like a necklace of fireballs, but sonic. make a few dozen of them then I. Invis, fly and no more fort. Defenders- if the army's far away, ambush them. Historiclly, defenders had the advantage over the attackers, until the 1940's. The tech developed in that decade is like magic so now attackers have the edge. They need to take the offensive before the army gets to the fort. I like massive tunnleing and a huge sinkhole(for either side)
AnujaShadow 12-06-04, 10:26 PM	hehe...if you have a Book of Vile Darkness... Get some Jovoc's, Iron Maiden, high-setting. Clerics with healing spells. Greater Invisibility, Extended. Catapult's. Only Tanari'i defenders will be unaffected by this.
PhaedrusXY 12-06-04, 10:54 PM	I've "fixed" Horrid Wilting to 2 targets/level, because as written it can hit all 20,000 people in your attacking force. What the crap?Sorry to go off-topic for a minute, but no it can't. Targets: Living creatures, no two of which can be more than 60 ft. apartThat is basically the same as a 30 foot radius effect, except it only affects targets you choose. You can't fit 20,000 troops into that. But you do raise a good point: spread the troops out as much as is reasonable, and have the spellcasters conceal their approach with Obscuring Mist spells and the like, so they are more difficult to target and wipe out with area affect spells.
Keifer0999 12-06-04, 10:54 PM	Thanks for all the great replies. I realize that you have spent alot of time replying to me....I really appreciate the answers. To the poster who quoted Terry Goodkind...thats been on the top of my head throughout the planning of this campaign ( I lost a month+ of planning because the DM before me was so awful he ended up quitting the gameclub cause we hassled him). Just some general notes and replies: Yes, you can reuse the orbs as much as you want. The defenders: around 200 normal grunts, and the following high level PC's....a 14th level cleric of Moradin, a 13th wizard with a staff of the magi, a 12th level cleric of Cuthbert, a 13th level paladin kensai who does like 50 pts of damage a hit, a 13th level half orc barbarian, a 14th lvl halfling rogue, a 12th level dwarf fighter who has a ring of seeing invisible. A few of the ideas I've seen I've thought about...but alot are things I haven't. I really appreciate all the replies, cause when you work ( and I've been working parttime at the local gamestore for the holidays) you don't always have time to plan. They have 2 days to plan. They only need to hold the fort for 1 day, when help arrives. The enemy needs to overwhelm the fort, get through the pass into open country, or it will have to fight a pitched battle in confined territory against a smaller, more elite army where it can't bring its numbers to bear. They are planning on using Control Weather spells to slow the enemy from getting to the forts, but I already planned on doing the same to the relief lol. They do have the orb of evocation, so they have alot of firepower in their hands, but only if they can figure out how to use it.
PhaedrusXY 12-06-04, 11:00 PM	Umm... holy crap man. I don't see how the PCs have a chance at all. Like someone else said, the 15th level evoker might be able to kill them all if he's optimized and played well.
Keifer0999 12-06-04, 11:09 PM	Umm... holy crap man. I don't see how the PCs have a chance at all. Like someone else said, the 15th level evoker might be able to kill them all if he's optimized and played well. They are very powerful and experienced players.....But they haven't covered all the bases yet...I don't think the 15th lvl evoke could take them out...we'll see.
Keifer0999 12-06-04, 11:23 PM	Perhaps the glabrezus could use their monthly wish spells to wreak some havoc, after all, the defenders falling should suffice for pain and suffering. +++++++++++++++++ Just an aside...its been ages since I ran demons...do they use their at will abilities like a spellcaster casting a spell, or are they in addition to their normal actions? I seem to remember Demons and Devils getting something like this....
Vanigo 12-06-04, 11:53 PM	Thanks for all the great replies. I realize that you have spent alot of time replying to me....I really appreciate the answers. To the poster who quoted Terry Goodkind...thats been on the top of my head throughout the planning of this campaign ( I lost a month+ of planning because the DM before me was so awful he ended up quitting the gameclub cause we hassled him). Just some general notes and replies: Yes, you can reuse the orbs as much as you want. The defenders: around 200 normal grunts, and the following high level PC's....a 14th level cleric of Moradin, a 13th wizard with a staff of the magi, a 12th level cleric of Cuthbert, a 13th level paladin kensai who does like 50 pts of damage a hit, a 13th level half orc barbarian, a 14th lvl halfling rogue, a 12th level dwarf fighter who has a ring of seeing invisible. A few of the ideas I've seen I've thought about...but alot are things I haven't. I really appreciate all the replies, cause when you work ( and I've been working parttime at the local gamestore for the holidays) you don't always have time to plan. They have 2 days to plan. They only need to hold the fort for 1 day, when help arrives. The enemy needs to overwhelm the fort, get through the pass into open country, or it will have to fight a pitched battle in confined territory against a smaller, more elite army where it can't bring its numbers to bear. They are planning on using Control Weather spells to slow the enemy from getting to the forts, but I already planned on doing the same to the relief lol. They do have the orb of evocation, so they have alot of firepower in their hands, but only if they can figure out how to use it. The defenders have an impossible task. The attackers can, if you don't care about casualties, simply charge the walls while the bigger baddies engage the PCs. Victory is certain. 2-3 disintegrates and a few area greater dispel magics will open the way for the grunts to slaughter the guards, and any sort of flight magic will allow the stronger attackers to enter the fortress at will, where they will, barring absolute genious on the part of the players, slaughter the PCs. Even if the players do kill the stronger attackers (which I'm willing to admit is an outside possibility), the walls will already be breached and the fortress largely negated. Without that advantage, they can't possibly hold back the massive swarms of grunts. The PCs have only two ways they have even the slightest chance, as far as I can tell. First, they can use more control weather spells to negate the ones slowing down the relief force, so the reinforcements arrive before the attackers. If they know the reinforcements are being bogged down, this option provides a very good chance of success. Alternately, a well-executed midnight (or whenever the attackers are camping) raid could possibly eliminate the stronger mages and steal all the orbs. If they can pull it off (it would be difficult, but not impossible during a rainstorm), this will give them a pretty good shot at holding the fort for a day while the reinforcements come; only disintegrate will be able to breach the walls fast enough. [Edit: one other method: if the PCs steal all the orbs and figure out how to use them, they'll be able to easily smash the attackers.]
Keifer0999 12-07-04, 12:02 AM	I may nix the orbs, since that seems to be an unfair advantage on the bad guys part....at the same time, I'd prefer for my side to be more powerful, then I can cut a break to the players. Otherwise, things may totally go their way and the fight does not become a challenge.
Vanigo 12-07-04, 12:33 AM	I may nix the orbs, since that seems to be an unfair advantage on the bad guys part....at the same time, I'd prefer for my side to be more powerful, then I can cut a break to the players. Otherwise, things may totally go their way and the fight does not become a challenge. Dropping the orbs makes things much more interesting. With their spellcasting limited by their own level, only the evoker and the stronger vampire mage can cast the all-important disintegrates. If the party can hold off the stronger creatures (which, with the orbs out of the picture, would be difficult but not impossible), the horde will be largely helpless to breach the walls quickly enough, provided they use permanent walls of fire to make ladders useless. (A siege tower could get people up despite the wall of fire, but there's no way they've got one with them and they don't have time to build one.) On the other hand, if the party falls, any one of the stronger attackers can make short work of the remaining guards.
Student Of The Mind 12-07-04, 12:37 AM	I need more information, but with proper preparation the defenders could decimate the invading army. Dont get me wrong, I think in the end the defenders are over run and slaughtered like lambs...But they could put one hell of a fight. If the players have access to high level majic, then they could do incredible things...As I said I need more info, but the defenders would be killed in the end. On the invaders side...Well if they have a high level sorcerer with Metamagic Rod: Enlarge the mage would be able to reign death and destruction on the fortification from 800ft+80ft/lvl. Each day the sorcerer could launch their fireballs off from distance, and there would be no worries. Again there are tons of things that need to be explained, but it would be a great battle to witness! Good luck! Good gaming!
Treetrip Danglefoot 12-07-04, 01:21 AM	Honestly with the orbs the defenders are as good as dead twice. But they haven't covered all the bases yet...I don't think the 15th lvl evoke could take them out...we'll see. You said 18th level Evoker in the description. Honestly, even at their high-ish levels You have 7 characters between 12-14th level. Only 3 of which are spell casters. The enemy has 7 12-15th level Characters/monsters and a CR 16 Nightwalker. That means he's a challenge for 4 16th level PCs. and 2 of those monster (Galbrezu) have a 20% chance to summon another one of themselves (which they will if things get bad). They also have 20,000 lbs of meat shield and an assortment of other casters. If you add the orbs. 20th level caster w/ 20 Int... well. They really can't hack it. As mentioned even a wall is easily circumnavigated by a "Wall of Stone" or Iron. If everyone of the Low level enemy casters memorized Dispel Magic and let the big guys focus on hard hitting, well, the PCs are boned. Especially with only 200 grunts (1st-4th level?). I simply don't think outside of Dues ex DM they have a chance. Hell, the attacking army has it easy. Drop some of the numbers down. I think even 20,000 CR1 enemies are a close match for 7 12-14th level PCs. I mean, they won't take much damage, but 20,000 is alot. A mass grapple will see anyone dead. AND if you're going to go through with this slaughterfest... with 20,000 soldiers. The combat is going to crawl. I'd suggest you use the mechanic that makes groups of soldiers a single "unit" and have them make their attacks as a "team". That being said. The defenders need as many glyphs along the road to the castle as they do at the castle, if not more. They need to eliminate the high level monster's/evil casters as soon as possible. Probably by sneaking that Paladin/Kensai in with the rogue, killing one and teleporting or something away. Only by killing the casters can they make use of their walls. Boxing the enemy in the canyon with multiple Walls of Iron or Stone, then dropping a wall of Iron on them from above would help. Honestly I think that without the 20,000 grunts, the PCs are still boned. Avalanches and rockslides can go both ways. To stop an army this size I think the PCs could find it worthwhile to collapse the valley onto itself. Aside from attacking they need to get creative with their fort. Use all the Mud=stone, stone=mud, walls of Iron, Stone, & Force to make a maze infront of the walls. They need to get the higher ground. A slight slope to the walls can make them harder to climb, a slight slope in the opposite direction lets you roll boulders down it. Soaking the ground in oil and lighting the bad boy up is good. Creating an illusory terrain to move the "Gate" of the fort or make there be "no gate at all". Use illusions that can "bolster" your forces. Use lots of illusions on the way that make the enemy unsure of whats real. Using the illusion of a Wall of Flame, followed by another illusion, followed by the real thing, followed by an illusion and then a pit trap would destabilize enemy troops. Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Evocation They should animate objects around the fort to bolster their numbers. Holy Water hand grenades, alchemists flasks, Holy Water catapult bombs. Bless the moat. Make a moat and then bless it. Random "Circle of Protection against Evil" all over the field infront of the fort to herd the enemy troops. Maybe keep the Nightwalker in line for a focused fire. If every single one of the 200 guards fires a bolt soaked in holy water at the Night Walker that would help. Anything wooden should be soaked in water so it can't burn. The walls could be greased to prevent them from being surmounted. Hell, soak the stone walls in oil and let them burn as a deterrent. But all of this fails if any of those high level casters are alive. All of it fails. And those orbs.
Kursk 12-07-04, 01:45 AM	fly+ invisibility + name your damage spell/wand/rod. Past 60' at night with clouds and your airborne attacker can't be seen really... :schemes:
KmartKommando 12-07-04, 02:34 AM	For the defenders, a cloudkill inside a few fog clouds is brutal. An illusionary cloudkill after a real one will make anyone pause. Acid fog and solid fog look just the same as fog cloud. Freezing fog (in CA) will delay just about anyone on the ground. Flying over a sieged castle is just asking for few volleys of everything they have in your backside. for the defenders: wall spells. force across the gate when the ram comes in, fire when that runs out, stone for filling breeches, iron for the squishing fun. :D fireball: hey, it's a classic.. flame arrows: up to 50d6 extra damage teleport raids: the defenders can try to take out middle leadership in quick strikes.
ShadowDragon8685 12-07-04, 03:01 AM	I think the players are boned, and any DM who comes up with this kind of super-craptacular Helm's Deep is gunning for a TPK.. If the players are smart, what they'd do is rig the castle to explode - and I do mean explode, I'm talking tac-nuke here, and get their men and run like hell in the middle of night. When the baddies reach the castle, it Boxcars the Orc's Nagisaki, and the pass collpases. Really.. those are mid-ranged players, and 50 cheap grunts, against an army that's larger than Sarumon threw at Helm's deep, and is bolstered with all kinds of horrible undead and insane monsters. You are gunning for a TPK, with both barrels going wide-open. Let the blood flow boys. A simple mass-charge by the orcs could do it... Heck, the demons and assorted high-CR creatures along could do it. Nevermind the orbs, which are a real mistake.
Keifer0999 12-07-04, 03:21 PM	I think the players are boned, and any DM who comes up with this kind of super-craptacular Helm's Deep is gunning for a TPK.. If the players are smart, what they'd do is rig the castle to explode - and I do mean explode, I'm talking tac-nuke here, and get their men and run like hell in the middle of night. When the baddies reach the castle, it Boxcars the Orc's Nagisaki, and the pass collpases. Really.. those are mid-ranged players, and 50 cheap grunts, against an army that's larger than Sarumon threw at Helm's deep, and is bolstered with all kinds of horrible undead and insane monsters. You are gunning for a TPK, with both barrels going wide-open. Let the blood flow boys. A simple mass-charge by the orcs could do it... Heck, the demons and assorted high-CR creatures along could do it. Nevermind the orbs, which are a real mistake. I'm going to disagree with you. The players only need to hold for one night. I'm assuming that they will be able to hold the walls and counter any attempts to magically breach them. Since the fort can only be attacked along one wall, they will be able to hold off the orcs on ladders etc. That leaves the demons, vampires and spellcasters and nightwalker to deal with the party. Ideally, I want this to be a cinematic Helm's Deep type battle where as the troops fight for their lives, the heroes take on the big baddies. t the same time, they have to aid the troops...so it becomes a choice of where to apply their resources. Remember, the bad guys can't commit all their forces at once...They need the demons and spellcasters to continue their conquest of the lands beyond the fort. I think everyone foretelling the doom of the players is looking at this as a oneshot battle, and not a campaign. As a realistic DM, I HAVE to hold back some of my resources. On the flip side, as a DM, I've always found it easier to have the advantage and challenge the players, then not and have them cakewalk through adventures.
Student Of The Mind 12-07-04, 04:02 PM	I'm going to disagree with you. The players only need to hold for one night. I'm assuming that they will be able to hold the walls and counter any attempts to magically breach them. Since the fort can only be attacked along one wall, they will be able to hold off the orcs on ladders etc. In one night a great deal of death can happen, and if odds are as bad as they sound...The players have no chance at survival. That leaves the demons, vampires and spellcasters and nightwalker to deal with the party. Nightwalkers and demons, huh? Sounds like those are meant to kill off the players. Vampires and spellcasters? Oh so you mean hold person and energy drain until each player is dead? Careful, you are opening a large can of worms. Ideally, I want this to be a cinematic Helm's Deep type battle where as the troops fight for their lives, the heroes take on the big baddies. t the same time, they have to aid the troops...so it becomes a choice of where to apply their resources. A Helms Deep knock off is only good if the strategies used are better than those used in the book and movie. Either way the entire fort is going to be over run, with little chance for survival. Remember, the bad guys can't commit all their forces at once...They need the demons and spellcasters to continue their conquest of the lands beyond the fort. I think everyone foretelling the doom of the players is looking at this as a oneshot battle, and not a campaign. As a realistic DM, I HAVE to hold back some of my resources. How many troops can the commit? Ten thousand? Five thousand? Against one hundred? 50 to 1 odds? TPK, no matter what you say...The overflow of creatures will be so great that they swarm the players and slaughter them. Their guards will be brutally butchered and the players will be surrounded by so many enemies that it will make their head spin...And most likely those same heads will roll. Now as a realistic DM I see that the numbers were blown out of porportion, because a force that size would decimate at least two kingdoms before they were killed...50 to 1 odds? Death is inevitable, even with area effect magic. On the flip side, as a DM, I've always found it easier to have the advantage and challenge the players, then not and have them cakewalk through adventures. This is no cakewalk, I would call it suicide pie! :D If you players are smart they will have a teleportation circle in a secret location, so they can run for their lives when the walls are breeched within the first hour. Either way, your player will most likely not get out of there alive... Good gaming :D
Starmage21 12-07-04, 04:16 PM	heh in my recent evil campaign, I led a small army against a walled fortress town. My Hill giants (turned lawful by the party's monk spending years with them [they regarded him as a little giant]) threw an entire tribe of trolls inside the wall, and they had decimated the internal forces before running away (they had orders to retreat if they were reduced to 50% of their number).
Vanigo 12-07-04, 04:56 PM	I'm going to disagree with you. The players only need to hold for one night. I'm assuming that they will be able to hold the walls and counter any attempts to magically breach them. Since the fort can only be attacked along one wall, they will be able to hold off the orcs on ladders etc.The only problem with that logic is that the players can't counter any attempts to magically breach the walls. There's just too much magical firepower arrayed against them; they can't possibly stop it. That leaves the demons, vampires and spellcasters and nightwalker to deal with the party. And, with the orbs to support them, they're more than up to the task. And even if they weren't, they don't even need to win. They just need to get close, cast a single disintegrate, and run. Once that hole's in the wall, it's all over. The attacking army will pour in like the tide, washing away anyone foolish enough to stand it its path. Sure, the party may kill six-seven hundred of them first, but 3% casualties are pretty tolerable to the average evil warlord. Ideally, I want this to be a cinematic Helm's Deep type battle where as the troops fight for their lives, the heroes take on the big baddies. t the same time, they have to aid the troops...so it becomes a choice of where to apply their resources. Well, with the walls intact and decent preparations, the party wouln't have to help the guards; they should be able to hold the fort for a day against the army as long as it remains intact, and the army can't breach the walls fast enough. Unfortunately, well, see above. Remember, the bad guys can't commit all their forces at once...They need the demons and spellcasters to continue their conquest of the lands beyond the fort. I think everyone foretelling the doom of the players is looking at this as a oneshot battle, and not a campaign. As a realistic DM, I HAVE to hold back some of my resources. Why can't they? When the force disparity is this overwhelming, "squish them now" is a perfectly legitimate strategy. They won't take significant casualties, so striking fast with overwhelming force is pretty much the smartest thing to do. On the flip side, as a DM, I've always found it easier to have the advantage and challenge the players, then not and have them cakewalk through adventures.Well, there's a fine line between "challenge" and "slaughter". You are nowhere near that line. Your players might find a way to win, but it won't be by fighting this battle. The only way they could win would be if the attackers are very stupid, sending the big guys one at a time. As to why this is stupid, imagine the following scenario: "You can all see the dragon in the room ahead, and he sees you. Judging from the size, it would appear to be a [insert dragon with a CR 3-4 below the average party level]." "Okay, here's what we're going to do. First, the fighter will go in and attack it. If he dies, the rogue goes in next. Then the mage, then the cleric."
Aluroon 12-07-04, 05:54 PM	I'll finish this thought tommarrow Aluroon
OGS-Remix 12-07-04, 07:44 PM	Finally..the badguys have several magic orbs of power that let any caster cast arcane spells as a 20th level mage with a 20 INT. They have an orb of abjuration, necromancy, enchantment, divination, transmutation. This is called game over for the PCs right here. Letting any caster cast 20th spells, let alone 5 seperate orbs it's all over. The orbs effectively turn the lower enemy casters you listed into 20th level ones. 5 20th level wizards are extrodinarily powerful. With the orbs only they could siege the castle and annihilate it. This is in addition to the demons and like 50 or 100 to 1 odds. I'd give the PCs about half an hour before they realized they're "boned."
Zeitgeistgeist 12-07-04, 08:11 PM	Of course, you could keep the orbs in. Then let the PCs know that the only way that they can survive is to infiltrate the enemy camp and steal the orbs.
OGS-Remix 12-07-04, 08:47 PM	I thought about this a little more, and the PC's have absolutely no chance. The combat is over in about 8 rounds. The second all your players get ready, tell them to roll initiative. For fun, lets assume they all get to go ahead of the enemies. Round 1) PCs do something. Enemies cast discern locaation on the Orb of evocation that the PCs have. Round 2) PCs do something. Enemies cast time stop using Orb of Transmutation. Lets even say they only get 2 rounds of time stop, because they rolled poorly. Round 3) PCs do nothing. Enemy Glabrezu teleports next to player with Orb. Round 4) PCs do nothing. Glabrezu uses Orb of Abjuration, to cast Prismatic Sphere trapping himself with the Orb of Evocation holder alone if possible. If it isn't possible, then use Prismatic Sphere/wall to divide and seperate as many of the PCs as possible. The Glabrezu divides in such a way that the person with the orb is not on the same side of the wall or sphere. Round 5) PCs attack Glabrezu or try to break out of Prismatic Sphere/Wall. If the Glabrezu trapped the Evocation Orb all by itself, it can't be killed in 1 round. If it only managed to divide the PCs, it's still unlikely to be killed. Glabrezu uses time stop again. Lets assume it works for only 2 rounds again. Round 6 & 7) Cast two more prismatic spheres or walls seperating the rest of the party, as well as seperating the Glabrezu from the Orb of Evocation holder. Round 8) Party is now seperated by prismatic spheres/walls. Glabrezue slaughters them all one by one using prismatic spray, disintegrate, energy drain, etc. If the time stop works for more then 2 rounds a cast, the PCs die faster. Edit: Fixed spelling/grammer error(s). Also realized you can't use symbol of death offensively so just energy drain instead...
Keifer0999 12-07-04, 09:51 PM	Nightwalkers and demons, huh? Sounds like those are meant to kill off the players. Vampires and spellcasters? Oh so you mean hold person and energy drain until each player is dead? Careful, you are opening a large can of worms. How many troops can the commit? Ten thousand? Five thousand? Against one hundred? 50 to 1 odds? TPK, no matter what you say...The overflow of creatures will be so great that they swarm the players and slaughter them. Their guards will be brutally butchered and the players will be surrounded by so many enemies that it will make their head spin...And most likely those same heads will roll. Now as a realistic DM I see that the numbers were blown out of porportion, because a force that size would decimate at least two kingdoms before they were killed...50 to 1 odds? Death is inevitable, even with area effect magic. This is no cakewalk, I would call it suicide pie! :D If you players are smart they will have a teleportation circle in a secret location, so they can run for their lives when the walls are breeched within the first hour. Either way, your player will most likely not get out of there alive... Good gaming :D[/QUOTE] I don't even bother casting hold person's at the party because their saves are so good. Most of the characters have an ac of 28-30...even if you tried to mass grapple them, they'd be able to fight off the hordes. They have enough magical firepower that even if they had to fight just th super baddies, they'd win....with casualties, but they would win. The paladin kensai has a mercurial greatsword, that is holy and flaming...he's doing something like 50 points a hit, and usually hits 3 times. The fort will fall, the cavalry will ride in to save them, but I don't foresee TPK.
Keifer0999 12-07-04, 09:57 PM	I thought about this a little more, and the PC's have absolutely no chance. The combat is over in about 8 rounds. The second all your players get ready, tell them to roll initiative. For fun, lets assume they all get to go ahead of the enemies. Round 1) PCs do something. Enemies cast discern locaation on the Orb of evocation that the PCs have. Round 2) PCs do something. Enemies cast time stop using Orb of Transmutation. Lets even say they only get 2 rounds of time stop, because they rolled poorly. Round 3) PCs do nothing. Enemy Glabrezu teleports next to player with Orb. Round 4) PCs do nothing. Glabrezu uses Orb of Abjuration, to cast Prismatic Sphere trapping himself with the Orb of Evocation holder alone if possible. If it isn't possible, then use Prismatic Sphere/wall to divide and seperate as many of the PCs as possible. The Glabrezu divides in such a way that the person with the orb is not on the same side of the wall or sphere. Round 5) PCs attack Glabrezu or try to break out of Prismatic Sphere/Wall. If the Glabrezu trapped the Evocation Orb all by itself, it can't be killed in 1 round. If it only managed to divide the PCs, it's still unlikely to be killed. Glabrezu uses time stop again. Lets assume it works for only 2 rounds again. Round 6 & 7) Cast two more prismatic spheres or walls seperating the rest of the party, as well as seperating the Glabrezu from the Orb of Evocation holder. Round 8) Party is now seperated by prismatic spheres/walls. Glabrezue slaughters them all one by one using prismatic spray, disintegrate, energy drain, etc. If the time stop works for more then 2 rounds a cast, the PCs die faster. Edit: Fixed spelling/grammer error(s). Also realized you can't use symbol of death offensively so just energy drain instead... ok...I'll cut back to the orb of abjuration, to dispel the forbiddance.... This is why I made the post...to see what I can/could/should/shouldn't do. The players are planning on using 2 days of blizzards from Control Weather spells to stop the army and let the relief get there...
krichaiushii 12-07-04, 10:40 PM	I still think the orb of abjuration should be used to MDJ the PCs' defenses.
Keifer0999 12-07-04, 11:00 PM	I still think the orb of abjuration should be used to MDJ the PCs' defenses. I'm thinking that too.....I wish I could think of a way to stop the Control Weather spells.
WunderGoat 12-08-04, 12:04 AM	You can just dispel the Control Weather, and it will go away. That, or counter-cast it. If the enemy army is thinking of the campaign and not the next battle, then they will see this fort as strategicly worthless. Given the army's ability to move about the world at will (via teleport and double gate spells) and the relativly little reliance on supply lines (undead and demons don't need to eat, at least not much), the army can just circumvent the defenders. Or better still, they can launch an attack at the defenders as a ruse to make sure the allied army moves to the pass, while the main force teleports behind enemy lines. This can be used as a tool for you. Start the attack on the PCs slowly, using the lesser assets of the enemy first, say, orcs, minor undead, and a few midrange clerics and wizards, then go with the demons. If things look bad for the PCs, you can just say the rest of the army teleported around the fort. The demons can (and should) teleport out when the going gets rough. The enemy casters should hold back and counterspell/dispel whatever the PCs do. The key to using NPC-foe spellcasters well is to use the proper spells agianst the proper targets. I.E. disintigrate-like spells vs things with poor fort saves (wizards, rouges), AoE damaging spells vs low hitpoint, poor ref targets (low-level gaurds, wizards), reflex save dsiable spells vs high-hp poor ref targets(fighters), will save disablers vs poor will targets (fighters, rouges). Every wizard should know many spells of each classification, and every spellcaster should have a variety of these spells preped for each combat. Realisticly, that one 18th level evoker could easily annihilate the entire fort. Use fly, greater invisibility, globe of invulnerability, etc to largely ignore PC attempts to fight back. A few dispell magics and the like will stop any PCs save the casters from attacking back. The evoker flies far above the fort and begins dropping delayed blast fireballs and cloudkills on the place. When the PCs come out to stop it, they have to fly up to him to get withing rage of any of their spells, during which time the evoker buffs himself and prepares to obliterate the PCs. His excess levels on the PCs means he will have the advantage of range and firepower on them. If things go poorly, he teleports away (or relocates to another position). Once opposing wizards have been eliminated, then the evoker has won. His range straight down will exceed the effective range of ground based bows, and he can cast wind wall to counter all the lucky arrows. Add a few of the supporting mages to the air attack and the PCs are toast, literaly. On a side note, I find specialization largely a poor deal. In this case the evoker needs to have banned necromancy and enchantment to do the things I describe. Overall, the wizard's greatest strength is its flexibility, and when it specializes, it starts to develop chinks in its defenses. Abjuration is a must for defenses vs everything, divination to counter invisibility, illusion to hide, and transmutation to move. Evocation, Necromancy, and enchantment are mostly offensive schools, while conjuration is a utility school (so is transmutation, but it has the all-important teleport-type spells). If you really want one more spell/level/day, then lose two of the offensive schools, or divination if you are willing to buy potions of see invis., and lots of them. One question: If you dispell fly, it creates a featherfall effect to save you. However, what happens if fly is disjoined? The fly effect, along with all other effects on the target, is destroyed. Would this not destroy the feather fall effect? If so, then the Evoker can cast MDJ on the opposing PCs as they fly up to him, and then they fall for 20d6.
Vanigo 12-08-04, 12:32 AM	I don't even bother casting hold person's at the party because their saves are so good. Most of the characters have an ac of 28-30...even if you tried to mass grapple them, they'd be able to fight off the hordes. They have enough magical firepower that even if they had to fight just th super baddies, they'd win....with casualties, but they would win. That's... pathetic. I can only assume that you've given out way more treasure than is reccomended (an assumption that is supported by the presence of a staff of the magi), and that either your players are way better at min/maxing than you or you refuse to min/max your villians. Even at that, the effective presence of five 20th level wizards should still be able to blow them out of the water. Evard's black tentacles should be able to easily trap the arcane casters with no save or SR. The other characters may be able to get out, but very few arcane spellcasters can beat a grapple check at +28. They can escape with dimention door, but you can just cast it again. Once the arcane casters are out of the picture, a forcecage or two will negate the melee types, leaving just the cleric to be easily killed by repeated application of whatever brand of pain you prefer. At nine-to-one odds or whatever it is, he'll go down in a hurry. Then you can kill the arcane casters with arrows or whatever. The fighters and rogues... heck, forcecage lasts so long you can just leave them there while the army marches through.
Primal 12-08-04, 03:45 AM	How many troops can the commit? Ten thousand? Five thousand? Against one hundred? 50 to 1 odds? TPK, no matter what you say...The overflow of creatures will be so great that they swarm the players and slaughter them. Their guards will be brutally butchered and the players will be surrounded by so many enemies that it will make their head spin...And most likely those same heads will roll. Now as a realistic DM I see that the numbers were blown out of porportion, because a force that size would decimate at least two kingdoms before they were killed...50 to 1 odds? Death is inevitable, even with area effect magic. Actually, it does not matter how many troops the enemy has, if they can not get to you at the same time. Even if all of them are committed at the same time, since the only approach is a narrow pass, only a few of them will be able to attack (no more than 200-300 at most). Considering that the PCs are fortified and probably better equiped than a skeleton, holding them off for a night should not be a problem. If you want a historical equivalent, see Thermopylae. A relatively small number of Greeks (I think it was about 6000) held off a Persian army many times their number in a narrow pass for three days with minimal loses. They could have held them there idefinetely if a traitor had not lead part of the Persian army through another pass at the backs of the defenders. The main reason for their success was that the Persians were unable to utilize their greatest numbers in the narrow pass and the defenders were behind fortifications and better trained and equiped.
Student Of The Mind 12-08-04, 04:46 AM	Actually, it does not matter how many troops the enemy has, if they can not get to you at the same time. Even if all of them are committed at the same time, since the only approach is a narrow pass, only a few of them will be able to attack (no more than 200-300 at most). Considering that the PCs are fortified and probably better equiped than a skeleton, holding them off for a night should not be a problem. If you want a historical equivalent, see Thermopylae. A relatively small number of Greeks (I think it was about 6000) held off a Persian army many times their number in a narrow pass for three days with minimal loses. They could have held them there idefinetely if a traitor had not lead part of the Persian army through another pass at the backs of the defenders. The main reason for their success was that the Persians were unable to utilize their greatest numbers in the narrow pass and the defenders were behind fortifications and better trained and equiped. It does matter because once the walls are broken through they will surround the defenders, and there will be no chance for them to get out alive. I am not worried about the size of the passage, I'm worried about the constant flow of creatures that will keep coming. It is similiar to a flowing river...No matter the substance it will soon crumble at the constant stream. A full night of combat can have serious ramifications, and it shouldnt even take a full night to destroy every last bid of the fortification. As for the battle of Thermopylae...It was the Spartans of 300 that held off the Persian forces of approximately 310k troops. The Spartans were betrayed by Ephialtes when he told Xerxes about the moutain pass which led troops around behind the Spartan lines. I know my history and the strategies used...The defenders of this fortification can put a serious limp in the invading army, but one single night gives them more than enough time to slaughter every last soul in that stronghold. With magic and such things it shouldnt even take them half the night to kill the players. As for the original poster...If you want to be even more devious towards your players, use catapults with barrels of alchemist fire...Or slingmen with thunderstones. If your players are any good with strategies you will have your hands full...Yes they can tear apart the army, but even ten thousand troops would annihilate the defenders. Are there giants? Give them bags of rocks and have them sit back to bombard the walls and gates. Either way you are gonna wanna give your players a hint form them to make a way out, or your campaign might end sooner than you had wanted. Good gaming! :D
Primal 12-08-04, 05:13 AM	As for the battle of Thermopylae...It was the Spartans of 300 that held off the Persian forces of approximately 310k troops. The Spartans were betrayed by Ephialtes when he told Xerxes about the moutain pass which led troops around behind the Spartan lines. I know my history and the strategies used...The defenders of this fortification can put a serious limp in the invading army, but one single night gives them more than enough time to slaughter every last soul in that stronghold. With magic and such things it shouldnt even take them half the night to kill the players. The 300 Spartans were the ones that remained only at the end of the battle, when the betrayal of Ephialtes was discovered and the rest of the Greeks returned to their home cities. Even then, the Spartans were not alone as 700 Thespies remained with them.
krichaiushii 12-08-04, 06:34 AM	A good bit of historical fiction regarding Thermopylae is Gates of Fire by Pressfield. Excellent book. And now back to our regularly scheduled thread...
Keifer0999 12-08-04, 09:20 AM	That's... pathetic. I can only assume that you've given out way more treasure than is reccomended (an assumption that is supported by the presence of a staff of the magi), and that either your players are way better at min/maxing than you or you refuse to min/max your villians. Even at that, the effective presence of five 20th level wizards should still be able to blow them out of the water. Evard's black tentacles should be able to easily trap the arcane casters with no save or SR. The other characters may be able to get out, but very few arcane spellcasters can beat a grapple check at +28. They can escape with dimention door, but you can just cast it again. Once the arcane casters are out of the picture, a forcecage or two will negate the melee types, leaving just the cleric to be easily killed by repeated application of whatever brand of pain you prefer. At nine-to-one odds or whatever it is, he'll go down in a hurry. Then you can kill the arcane casters with arrows or whatever. The fighters and rogues... heck, forcecage lasts so long you can just leave them there while the army marches through. I run a low magic campaign. Other DM's don't, and players can make their own magic items. It's ridiculously easy these days....::shrugs::
Arquinsiel 12-08-04, 12:21 PM	First you need to make an item roughly aproximating the heart of woe from warhammer fantasy (ie: a talisman that explodes when the wearer dies). Doesn't have to be too powerful, just a min caster level fireball even (but add the wearer's con bonus to each dice rolled to represent the origional scalable effects). Then explain that this item is an amulate of ultimate killyness that will make all of them invulnerable and consequently invincible. Give 'em all a pointy stick and a simple copper band and tell 'em it's a ring of feather fall. Then have invisable vrock's drop them over the castle. Suicide Kobolds paratroopers. Or, if you like: The Death from Above Legion.
Vanigo 12-09-04, 11:33 PM	I run a low magic campaign. Other DM's don't, and players can make their own magic items. It's ridiculously easy these days....::shrugs:: You're doing what now? Spellcasters on the evil side: 3 13th level clerics, 2 9th level and 4 5th level ( of Iuz). They have 18th level Evoker, 1 14th level Vampire Mage, 1 9th level vampire mage, and 4-6 mages of 5th-9th level. 1 15th level Necromancer. They have 1 nightwalker, 2 glabrezu's, 4 Vrocks ... Finally..the badguys have several magic orbs of power that let any caster cast arcane spells as a 20th level mage with a 20 INT. They have an orb of abjuration, necromancy, enchantment, divination, transmutation. a 13th wizard with a staff of the magi Doesn't sound very low magic to me...