Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sammaron_BLib 06-10-07, 08:01 PM	I'm DMing a campaign, and it has only 3 players. Two of them enjoy a more under-powered players v.s. hard situations, while the other does not believe in 'overpowered' so long as it was obtained fairly (such as rolls great scores). The PC's also think they should be able to buy any item they can afford with their whole gold collections, which usually ends in the PC's with +2 or +3 weapons by level 8. Is this too good, or is it just me?
Kaldric 06-11-07, 12:35 AM	I'm of the opinion that the more difficult the challenge is, the greater the feeling of accomplishment when it is overcome. Thus, I don't create magic item shops or friendly wizards willing to sacrifice time or life force to create items for the players. I find that the random treasure tables, supplemented by whatever the players manage to loot from their enemies, is enough to make the characters powerful enough to take on level-appropriate enemies. If a player wants something unique for his character, or feels that he absolutely must have one specific item to enjoy playing his character, then he can pay a sage to locate the item for him, and then spend some time looking for it, and then fighting whoever currently owns it. As for a +2 or +3 weapon being available to the players at level 8, I would say that the only way they should have such a thing is if they took it from some evil bastidge's cold, dead fingers.
dknight100 06-11-07, 12:53 AM	I'm in a bit of a middle ground on this - i'm sorry that i don't have a standard 3.5 solution for this, but i figured i would post my views. I enjoy powergaming. I like working with the rules to make an effective character, often with a niche sort of thing (such as my spam-cannon high ac monk. I'm the first to admit he doesnt have a high hit rate, but one or two will, and when all 5 hit...) I often have tailored items for this (a character ive designed but havent put into play yet wears a circlet that can cast that cleric spell that makes you larger and tougher a couple of times a day, to make ultimate use of his polearm + spring attack). I know many people feel that powergaming detracts from rp character, but i feel that real rp character comes during gametime, not to mention that its not like 28 point buy comes with points divisable between "Powergame" and "RP". At the same time, such tailored items can have a really bad effect in game: in the event of character death, if you have to sell and item or two to afford a ressurection, its suddenly better to design a new character with a -1 level penalty than to sell said items. And thats even in my current campaign (that im playing in, not that im running) where we've ruled that you dont get access to a dead characters gear. The other thing is that if the players are using custom designed magic items, then its much harder to reward them - most bosses piles of loot becomes measured in potential sales value instead of "oh wow, a mysterious sword!". Of course, you can tailor items that wind up in boss loot that just happens to suit people in the group, but you can't (well, probably shouldn't) do that all the time. As I mentioned, this post doesn't contain an answer, as the answer is very personal to the campaign - mainly whether the points above bother you or not. The points are just some things i think should be considered in this case - i know its been a factor for me when designing my campaign (and hey, hopefully i'll stop tweaking rules and designing things and run it sometime).
Sammaron_BLib 06-11-07, 05:37 PM	I'm in a bit of a middle ground on this - i'm sorry that i don't have a standard 3.5 solution for this, but i figured i would post my views. I enjoy powergaming. I like working with the rules to make an effective character, often with a niche sort of thing (such as my spam-cannon high ac monk. I'm the first to admit he doesnt have a high hit rate, but one or two will, and when all 5 hit...) I often have tailored items for this (a character ive designed but havent put into play yet wears a circlet that can cast that cleric spell that makes you larger and tougher a couple of times a day, to make ultimate use of his polearm + spring attack). I know many people feel that powergaming detracts from rp character, but i feel that real rp character comes during gametime, not to mention that its not like 28 point buy comes with points divisable between "Powergame" and "RP". At the same time, such tailored items can have a really bad effect in game: in the event of character death, if you have to sell and item or two to afford a ressurection, its suddenly better to design a new character with a -1 level penalty than to sell said items. And thats even in my current campaign (that im playing in, not that im running) where we've ruled that you dont get access to a dead characters gear. The other thing is that if the players are using custom designed magic items, then its much harder to reward them - most bosses piles of loot becomes measured in potential sales value instead of "oh wow, a mysterious sword!". Of course, you can tailor items that wind up in boss loot that just happens to suit people in the group, but you can't (well, probably shouldn't) do that all the time. As I mentioned, this post doesn't contain an answer, as the answer is very personal to the campaign - mainly whether the points above bother you or not. The points are just some things i think should be considered in this case - i know its been a factor for me when designing my campaign (and hey, hopefully i'll stop tweaking rules and designing things and run it sometime). K :D
Elrond Hubbard 06-11-07, 07:20 PM	My opinion on these matters is that a DM should never try through artificial means to prevent the PCs from becoming too powerful. All you have to do is throw higher-level encounters at them. Find the balance. It's OK for PCs to be really powerful, even overpowered for their level (through gear or optimization). Just means the enemies they fight should be correspondingly powerful. Anyway, if they're spending all their gold on one or two items, they're probably going to be underpowered in some other aspect. Cunning enemies will exploit that.
dknight100 06-11-07, 08:42 PM	This is off topic, but Elrond Hubbard is such a good user name
Escef 06-12-07, 02:15 AM	As for a +2 or +3 weapon being available to the players at level 8, I would say that the only way they should have such a thing is if they took it from some evil bastidge's cold, dead fingers. Considering that it only takes a 9th level caster to make a +3 weapon, I have no problems with this. Further, a 5th level caster can theoretically make a +1 (element X) (element Y) weapon (e.g.: +1 flaming frost), which is a +3 equivelant. So long as it doesn't make a mockery of the campaign world's believability or the wealth/level guidelines there should be few problems.
Encard 06-12-07, 03:51 AM	There's nothing terribly powerful about a +2 or +3 weapon at level 8... Heck, I'm pretty sure all my (melee-related) level 8 PC's have one, along with various other goodies. That hasn't stopped combats from being both tough and fun when I've wanted them to be tough - it's just meant I could through snazzier enemies against them than I could if they were poor.
Elrond Hubbard 06-12-07, 12:31 PM	This is off topic, but Elrond Hubbard is such a good user name why thank you. i'm quite proud of it myself.
Kaldric 06-12-07, 02:48 PM	Considering that it only takes a 9th level caster to make a +3 weapon, I have no problems with this. Further, a 5th level caster can theoretically make a +1 (element X) (element Y) weapon (e.g.: +1 flaming frost), which is a +3 equivelant. So long as it doesn't make a mockery of the campaign world's believability or the wealth/level guidelines there should be few problems. Certainly true. But unless the characters have sacrificed feats to be able to make that weapon, thus reducing their combat power, I wouldn't give it to them. I don't allow them to hire casters to make things like this for them, for that very reason. If you want to have a caster make you a weapon, then the only way he's going to sacrifice life force to do it is if you cart him around with you on adventures, sharing the experience with him. But that's just my style. I think the item creation feats are there for a reason. If players can just walk to the magicmart and hire a wizard above their level to make any item they like, then there isn't too much of a point to ever taking an item creation feat as a caster. You can just spend your money to buy a better item than you could make from the local store, and use those extra feats to make yourself into a super-wizard who will unbalance the game.
Sammaron_BLib 06-12-07, 09:59 PM	But that's just my style. I think the item creation feats are there for a reason. If players can just walk to the magicmart and hire a wizard above their level to make any item they like, then there isn't too much of a point to ever taking an item creation feat as a caster. You can just spend your money to buy a better item than you could make from the local store, and use those extra feats to make yourself into a super-wizard who will unbalance the game. Ya... ya! Cool, i like dat :D Thanks for everyones help.
dknight100 06-13-07, 12:39 AM	i agree with the magicmart thing. Which is a kinda funny philosophy for me to take. you guys dont know me as a player, but i mentioned that i use magicmart custom items alot on my characters. I like making characters who i optimise towards a certain goal - the guy i mentioned earlier with the halberd was optimised towards jumping and spring attacks, and had magicmart items to assist with that. At the same time, i see the die, sell of items to afford res, oh look my character sucks now effect, and thats bad. The whole how to counter this vein of discussion seems fairly well covered, but i just thought i would mention a system im currently working on. Currently I'm creating a freeform weapon design system, so that "longsword" is really just a premade template, and within a points system, players can design anything they can reasonably describe. The initial points system is actually one I found on these forums, but i have been modifying it to suit my needs and such. Im finding it quite fun, because my campaign has a barter & trade economy (no central government means no money) and i'm streamlined crafting, and improved it to allow better masterworking (up to artifact grade +5 hit + 5 damage). I've also thrown out 'magic' weapons from my game, other than temp weapon buff spells ive been designing. All of this, once i actually RUN the campaign, seems set to put in more weapon diversity (expanded weapon proficiencies and focus and specialision to cover how a weapon is used rather than what the weapon is named). It also means that gear is easier to replace and reward. Plus, since they can replace it easier, say hello to sunder in fights again. I'm still tweaking the system, but im pretty pleased, and the balance is sorting out well.
Dragonsblood 06-13-07, 12:44 AM	I have no problem with level 8 PCs owning +2 and +3 weapons. They're supposed to have 27000gp, and a +3 sword is only around 18300gp. I suggest you take a look at page 135 of the DMG. Certainly true. But unless the characters have sacrificed feats to be able to make that weapon, thus reducing their combat power, I wouldn't give it to them. I don't allow them to hire casters to make things like this for them, for that very reason. If you want to have a caster make you a weapon, then the only way he's going to sacrifice life force to do it is if you cart him around with you on adventures, sharing the experience with him. But that's just my style. I think the item creation feats are there for a reason. If players can just walk to the magicmart and hire a wizard above their level to make any item they like, then there isn't too much of a point to ever taking an item creation feat as a caster. You can just spend your money to buy a better item than you could make from the local store, and use those extra feats to make yourself into a super-wizard who will unbalance the game. So what do your players do when no one takes item creation feats? Horde their gold in sacks and beat enemies with them? The point of the item creation feats is to get stuff at half cost. You're compensating that lost "life force" by paying double the cost of the materials when NPCs do it. I hope you at least give your players quests for wizards to make their fancy swords. What else is a high level character going to spend their hard earned loot on? How are they going to survive high level encounters? Wait, let me guess...vow of poverty monks and druids are popular in your campaign :p
Encard 06-13-07, 01:56 AM	I have to agree... Item Creation Feats are there so you can get exactly what you want all the time, and get it for less gold. I'm sure you could find people willing to infuse their work with some easily-renewable life force/whatever for the right price - i.e. the item's market price. I'll note that I also DM Eberron, so the idea of not having at least some magic items bought and sold would be a bit silly.
dknight100 06-13-07, 04:33 AM	I think it would be safe to assume that if people will part with money for it, then some other people will be willing to supply it. My only problem with 'magicmart' is what i mentioned, about a character being so reliant on *their* customised items that if you need to sell something to afford a rez, suddenly your character is severely weakened.
ArchonJohn 06-13-07, 04:58 AM	I find that the random treasure tables, supplemented by whatever the players manage to loot from their enemies, is enough to make the characters powerful enough to take on level-appropriate enemies. So what you're telling me is that a fighter who specializes in say - any weapon - is boned in your games? So fighters should never be played in your games. Anyways, If you need to sell an item to be rezed, and it cripples your character, then don't spend that money when you get it. Here's a simple algorithim. 1) Your character gets money. You... A) Spend it all (Go to 2) B) Spend some of it, leavign a bit in cash reserves (Go to 3) 2) Your character, through random chance, dies. You... A) Stay dead. B) Sell some equipment and 'cripple' your character 3) Your character, through random chance, dies. You... A) Stay dead. B) Use your gold and come back to life. I think this works fairly well.
Sammaron_BLib 06-14-07, 01:16 PM	I think I've got it for what I'ma gunna do. Thanks, youve been a lota help :D
Kaldric 06-14-07, 08:45 PM	I have no problem with level 8 PCs owning +2 and +3 weapons. They're supposed to have 27000gp, and a +3 sword is only around 18300gp. I suggest you take a look at page 135 of the DMG. So what do your players do when no one takes item creation feats? Horde their gold in sacks and beat enemies with them? The point of the item creation feats is to get stuff at half cost. You're compensating that lost "life force" by paying double the cost of the materials when NPCs do it. I hope you at least give your players quests for wizards to make their fancy swords. What else is a high level character going to spend their hard earned loot on? How are they going to survive high level encounters? Wait, let me guess...vow of poverty monks and druids are popular in your campaign :p The wealth by level guidelines are there to give DMs an estimate of how much wealth the characters should have to be balanced at a particular level. It's not a rule. For instance, if the fighter is dumb enough to sink all of his wealth into one weapon, then when he loses it, is he supposed to immediately find another one of equal power? No. If you use the random tables in the DMG or in the Magic Item Compendium, the characters should get about as much loot per level as the wealth-by-level guidelines suggest. They aren't a straitjacket, they are a game balance aid. Saying that the characters should be able to have all of that wealth in a couple of custom-tailored high cost items that perfectly complement their characters is as silly as saying that all of that wealth should be in masterwork quarterstaves. The wealth-by-level guidelines are based on random loot, and the random loot tables are tailored to give a good distribution of items. Giving the players the ability to liquidate their randomly acquired loot and turn it into a couple of high-powered items defeats the whole purpose of using the wealth-by-level table. As for my players wanting to play a vop character, that's just kind of silly. Odds are pretty good that a character in my campaigns will have come across a +2 weapon in the hands of an enemy, and looted it, somewhere around 9th level. The VOP monk doesn't get +2 weapons until 10th level. If you allow the players to buy items and use the wealth-by-level guidelines as a sort of gp limit to the player's wealth rather than as they were intended, they could get +2 weapons somewhere around the middle of 4th level. That's something like 6 levels before the VOP character, who is, in theory, supposed get the benefits of normal item accrual. Allowing characters to purchase custom-made magic items unbalances the game. At least, it unbalances my game. So I don't allow it in my game. You, of course, may do as you please. If your players like your game, more power to you.
Kaldric 06-14-07, 08:52 PM	So what you're telling me is that a fighter who specializes in say - any weapon - is boned in your games? So fighters should never be played in your games. Obviously not. That's kind of disingenuous. I never said that players were not able to specifically research and quest for whatever items they choose. If a fighter specializes in something like the dwarven war axe, then he can do some research, talk to the sages, get the legends about the best axes ever made and track them down and take them from whoever's got them, or convince the dwarven king that he is the most worthy wielder of the axe. Thus, he'll get the axe when he is able to overcome a level-appropriate challenge to get it, and it won't unbalance the game. He can't just hoard a bunch of money from killing goblins and go buy it at level 4, when it would normally be found only in a level 10 treasure.