Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Maeloke 03-01-05, 04:58 AM	So, I'm running a campaign for a group of 8th level characters. The party is a conundrum... 1) Dwarven barbarian/fighter of the typical beastly combat ability. He kills everything in two hits, if I'm lucky and he doesnt crit with his greatsword. By merit of magical armor, an animated shield, and a fair dex, his ac remains at 26 even raging. 2) Human monk of much weaker attack ability, but an AC even higher than the dwarf, between a spectacular dex, high wisdom, ring of deflection, and the ever-present mage armor from the sorceress. He recently aquired a ring of blinking as well, which makes him even worse. 3) Elven Ranger/assassin (variant core class by green ronin) who uses her death attacks, poison, and bow of wounding liberally. A pure archer build with fewer HP than the... 4) Halfling sorceress/elemental savant, who is not especially commentworthy, except to say that her AC is, like the rest, above 24. The party has perhaps a little more money than the standard, but not much. The issue is that I cant design a battle that adequately taps all of their abilities. Either the DR (which the party refuses to fully acknowledge) nullifies all but the barbarian's and sorc's damage, or the sorc and ranger go unconscious immediately from low hp (niether is out of the 30s), or the enemy stays at range, nullifying the monk and barbarian. Attack with swarms, the barbarian racks up dozens of kills with obligatory cleaving, while the rest of the party does little (sorc being too nice to fireball friends). Attack with enchanters or similar brainwarp critters and the party goes to pieces (barbarian and ranger's will saves are abysmal). If the AC is too high, only the barbarian can hit. If the SR is there, the Sorc will fail most of her rolls. Most monsters that present a reasonable challenge to the party these days have at least two of the above qualities. I know the party ideal is for everyone to shore up someone else's weaknesses, but this party puts me in situations where usually one person has to do all the work, and the others nothing (and too often its the dwarf). I'm a nice GM and dont like killing party members. More to the point, the plot hinges pretty heavily on the backstories of each, and rewriting is not really an option, so I cant go killing them to teach a lesson in balance. So, what do you guys think I should throw at them?
VirgilCaine 03-01-05, 01:19 PM	A pair of monsters. A flying baddie, like a regressed-HD roc or a manticore or yrthak or something for the archer and the sorceror. To-hit bonuses out the wazoo--Dex enhancing spells, any kind of to-hit bonus that can be garnered from spells, give it to this one. A big melee baddie with MAX HP, 18 Con + monster HD Con bonus and the armor quality that gives the user DR. Say, an ettin. With 12 Int or so. Two big nasty temporarily magic clubs (Greater Magic Weapon spell), temporary hitpoints from some spells, several AC-raising spells on him. Fighter or Barbarian levels for him too, like three or four of them, IIRC. The coordinator? A cleric, say. Who runs as soon as he orders these two to attack the party.
Bane 03-01-05, 01:20 PM	Variety. The point isn't to make it so that no one gets a chance to shine, it's to make it so that everyone gets to shine equally. If a golem would be too powerful for the sorceress, then the sorceress should stand back and watch the barbarian beat it down. If there's a Mind Flayer about, the dwarf will stand around while the sorceress applies beatdown. When the opponents fly, the archer should shoot it down. When opponents flee, only the monk will be able to catch them. They don't all have to be equally powerful during every encounter, as long as they each get encounters where they excel.
mastroyo 03-01-05, 01:25 PM	I would suggest Lithium for bipolars, but check it with your Psychiatrist first. :D I would suggest plainly splitting the up. With a Wall of <insert element here> between characters could do some nasty things. Leave the ranger and the sorceress on one side and watch them suffer. And for the dwarf, perhaps a single Ray of Enfeeblement and a Web could leave him sitting. (I don't like to put many monsters in the way, I prefer Urban Adventures, so monsters are rare and VERY dangerous. Actually, when my PCs find one, they start getting worried....)
steenan 03-01-05, 03:12 PM	First thing, adress their weaknesses without fear. Try to avoid TPK, but if it happens, so be it. They should care about not having weak spots themselves. If they ignore some threats (by having abyssymaly low HP's, low will saves or something like that and not avoiding problems that cause by a use of wise tactics), so that a creature with CR equal to party level (or one higher) can wipe them, they deserve to suffer. Now, the answer to your question. Typicaly, a tough, but not overwhelming encounter for a party should be a group consisting of a few different creatures. Use, for example: 1. A half-dragon troll, a kobold sor4 and a kobold rog3 (with sorcerer having scrolls of Greater Invisibility for himself and the rogue) 2. A drow wiz5 and 5 (or more) grimlocks (wizard armed with a wand of Blacklight and using it a lot) 3. A phase spider, a shadow choker rog1, a fiendish shadow ogre and 2 shadow darkmantles (shadow template from MotP)
Lana "Silvertongue" 03-01-05, 04:25 PM	More to the point, the plot hinges pretty heavily on the backstories of each, and rewriting is not really an option, so I cant go killing them to teach a lesson in balance. So, what do you guys think I should throw at them? First off, Death is the best way to teach game balance. If they die because that is the way life goes, its unfortunate that it happens but it makes them better as players. My suggestion is an urban education campaign. At eighth level they can handle some interesting creatures. 3) Elven Ranger/assassin (variant core class by green ronin) who uses her death attacks, poison, and bow of wounding liberally. A pure archer build with fewer HP than the... I can't talk to the strengths or weaknesses of this class, so I am just gunna assume it has most of the same stuff as the average ranger of sorts. 1) Dwarven barbarian/fighter of the typical beastly combat ability. He kills everything in two hits, if I'm lucky and he doesnt crit with his greatsword. By merit of magical armor, an animated shield, and a fair dex, his ac remains at 26 even raging. 2) Human monk of much weaker attack ability, but an AC even higher than the dwarf, between a spectacular dex, high wisdom, ring of deflection, and the ever-present mage armor from the sorceress. He recently aquired a ring of blinking as well, which makes him even worse. This is what the crux of my idea is going to be based around, or atleast two key events. One, a theif. Stealing the animated shield is just begging to happen. It takes the beastiest character and knocks him down a notch. Also makes his AC easier to achieve. The fact that he has 26 while raging when my normal average is 25ish without rage makes me wonder. My baddies are a Wizard (9th level), Thief (8th level) and two or three fighters (5th level). The wizard needs a few scrolls of divination spells as part of his loot, to suggest he casted 'Scrying' and 'Arcane Sight'. I would use him as the final battle (BBEG), with two fighters as ground control. 'Fly', 'Melfs', 'Lightning Bolt', 'Scare' and 'Summon Monster 5' using two mephits from the 4 list. The absolute last thing he needs or the thief with the Use Magic Device needs is a Wand of Dispel Magic. Use it on the Monk. The party has perhaps a little more money than the standard, but not much. The issue is that I can’t design a battle that adequately taps all of their abilities. Either the DR (which the party refuses to fully acknowledge) nullifies all but the barbarian's and sorc's damage, or the sorc and ranger go unconscious immediately from low hp (niether is out of the 30s), or the enemy stays at range, nullifying the monk and barbarian. Attack with swarms, the barbarian racks up dozens of kills with obligatory cleaving, while the rest of the party does little (sorc being too nice to fireball friends). Attack with enchanters or similar brainwarp critters and the party goes to pieces (barbarian and ranger's will saves are abysmal). If the AC is too high, only the barbarian can hit. If the SR is there, the Sorc will fail most of her rolls. Most monsters that present a reasonable challenge to the party these days have at least two of the above qualities. First off, if the party (and through them the players) refuse to acknowledge the concept and use of Damage Reduction.. I give them the three warning then nuked rule. If put up against a wererat at some point in their career and they never took the downtime to learn that lycanthropes were only weak against silver, then invest in a dagger accordingly, they are asking to die. I would also drive this point home by using the ranger and the sorcerer to prove a point. Creatures can be identified by the use of Knowledge skills. You can learn weaknesses of creatures by knowledge skills. Last point, if the ranger and Barbarian dropped all their money into their armor/weapons and did not invest in a cloak/vest of resistance something by this point, then they are asking for a 'Dominate Mind' or 'Confuse' kind of tough love. They are not gunna learn unless they are slapped in the skull with it... They needs the lesson in investment (Be it magical or no... a +1 is all it has to be for magic DR) both in protections and weapons as well.. everyone needs a ranged weapon!
sollmn 03-01-05, 05:23 PM	They all share two major weaknesses: inability to quickly heal (especially status ailments like blind and ability damage) and a lack of non-combat skills (with the possible exception of the ranger thingy, although I suspect he isn't too good at much except assasin skills, and maybe tracking). Healing. They must be using potions, or possibly a wand for the ranger, if it's allowed with the variant. Regardless, their ability to quickly heal between combat is limmited by what possessions they are carrying. I would thus suggest many smaller encounters within a short period. This will not only use up the practically non-existant healing, but also knock down the hit-points of the tanks, making them as vulnerable as the archer and sorcereress. Further, it will deplete the sorcereress's spells, which will further enhance the necessity of the other party members taking up slack. And of course, without any real way to cure any status ailments, they are all dangerously suseptable to those permanent maiming, at least permanent until they got to a temple (which I would make difficult to do for sessions at a time). Skills: Introduce many, many repeated non-combat hazards, the kinds of things that only with high-skills and team work can they over come. A trap heavy dungeon, a diplomacy/bluff/intimidate heavy mystery, or needing to climb, balance, jury-rig and otherwise avoid environmental hazards like pits, walls, vats of acid, and whatever. If they don't "enjoy" this kind of challenge, throw in hidden orc-archers and a pursuing demon, and suddenly that collasping staircase into firey doom becomes a truly memorable and fun adventure. ;) Keep in mind, also, that adventures make enemies, and those enemies may be smart enough to exploit their weakenesses. Without anymore information, I don't know what other weakenesses they may all share, but I bet they do share more than just these two. :plotting:
Maeloke 03-01-05, 07:10 PM	Healing. They must be using potions, or possibly a wand for the ranger, if it's allowed with the variant. The sorceress has maxed out UMD, so doubles as the party healer; she burns through wands of cure light like nobody's business, out of combat. Keep in mind, also, that adventures make enemies, and those enemies may be smart enough to exploit their weakenesses. Without anymore information, I don't know what other weakenesses they may all share, but I bet they do share more than just these two. The campaign has the party working to stop the coming of a sizeable network of devils, who have assembled plenty of knowledge about them already. Those chaps'll be showing up in a level or two, so I'm looking to wise up the party before then. Else TPK is wholly inevitable. The point isn't to make it so that no one gets a chance to shine, it's to make it so that everyone gets to shine equally. Duly noted, I just feel bad running battles where all but one players action consists of "I hold, since I cant hurt it anyway" But from what i'm hearing, the best solution really looks to be mixing it up, throwing varied monsters at them. Physical challenges, as well. I like the idea of walling parts of the party off, too, mastroyo. I'll give these ideas a run next session; its going to be their first dungeon crawl in five levels or so, so I'm thinking fun with driders and golems.
Vatras 03-01-05, 07:26 PM	To keep fights even, use monsters with high hp and not much damage, but maybe some nasty special attack like ability drain (debilitating to some, not killing the weak ones instantly). In case one of the weaker members of the group reads this: use fly :)
sollmn 03-01-05, 10:57 PM	It sounds like you've got it all under control and will do fine. :thumbsup: I do have a question though, how does the sorcerer have a good enough UMD check at 8th level to make reasonable wand checks without nearly 50% failure? At 8th level, with UMD being a cross-class skill, his max ranks is 5, and that is assuming he spent double points in it, which means he spent practically no ranks in anything else, including knowledge arcana, concentration, and spellcraft. Assuming a starting charisma of 18 (half his points in a high-powered point-buy), bumping it up twice to 20, a +4 cloak of charisma (which would be most of his gold) and a circlet of persuasion, and magical aptitude and skill focus (spellcraft) his UMD check would then be 20. But that is assuming all of the above, which I doubt. Did he really burn all his points, over half his feats, and all his gold for UMD? Or is his UMD just 1 rank, which is believable, and 5 from charisma, and maybe a skill-focus, then his check will be about 50/50. Is this the case? If so, the party must be spending a LOT of money on wands, and where do they get them, anyway?