Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kevtar 04-04-07, 03:27 PM	Hi all, My son has put together a great PC, a PC that I allowed simply because I was interested in the concept, as well as the great build, but now I'm faced with the challenge of how to give this PC a workout without killing the rest of the group. The group consists of the following PCs (just so you can get the feel of the party): Elven Wizard 11 Human Spellthief 7/Fighter 2 Human Cleric 8/Barbarian 1 Dwarf Cleric 8/Hunter of the Dead 1 Elf Barbarian (Unearthed Arcana Bear Totem variant) 8 Halfling Rogue 8/Fortune's Friend 3 Dwarf Barbarian 8/Rogue 2 Elf Ranger 11 Human Monk 5/Paladin 5/Argent Fist 1 It's the last guy, the monk, who is posing a "problem." Here are his stats. We rolled for abilities, and he got lucky, so he definitely got a head-start. James Gaunt Human Mnk5/Pal5/Arg1 Size M; HP 86; Init +4; Spd 40 ft (base 30 ft); AC 33, touch 21, FF 29; BAB +8/+3; Grapple +17; Unarmed +15/+10 (1d10 + 7); Flurry of Blows +15/+10 (1d10 + 7); AL LG; SV Fort +15, Ref +12, Will +15; Str 20, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 14. Skills: (I'll skip those) Feats: Ascetic Knight, Clever Wrestling, Deflect Arrows, Earth's Embrace, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty. Special Abilities: Aura of Courage, Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Divine Grace, Divine Health, Evasion, Fast Movement, Flurry of Blows, Ki Focus (Su), Ki Strike, Lay on Hands, Monk AC Bonus, Purity of Body, Running on Water (replaces slow fall), Smite Evil, Special Mount, Still Mind, Turn Undead, Unarmed Strike. The Ascetic Knight feat and his Argent Fist prestige class allow certain Monk and Paladin class features to continue increasing in power as if he was a lPC with levels in those classes equal to his current ECL. The two big issues are his AC (33, T21, FF29) and his Saving Throws (F +15, Ref +12, W +15). His armor class is within 8-12 points higher than most people in the party, and his saves are much higher as well. In nearly every encounter, this PC deals decent damage and is virtually untouched. Can you provide me with some good ways to challenge the PC without providing an encounter that is certain death for the rest of the group? Thanks
Praedoran 04-04-07, 03:52 PM	That's a mess. It's a good build, but when you let a player use 3 or more non-core books, a monk take Vow of Poverty, and when more than half of the other players sit a at level or two lower than him, you're going to have problems. My solution: Increase the standard party wealth. Since he has Vow of Poverty, he won't be able to take advantage of this little change in the campaign, thereby powering everyone else up. Other than that, you have to look at the player's problems: He's a monk, a paladin, AND with a vow of poverty. His problems does not involve combat, they involve a strict adherence to a code. He may shine precisely because you run too much combat and not enough thinking encounters. The other players benefit from true freedom, let them revel in that fact.
LadyAlaria 04-04-07, 03:53 PM	Ummm. Good luck with that. I'd just take your son aside and explain that the experiment worked too well. He can play the character later, after the party has a couple more levels behind them, or you can have a "radiation accident" that knocks the character down a few pegs. If you keep playing, you might be able to come up with a couple villains that hit his weak spots. But after the second or third time it will become obvious that you are manipulating the environment in an arbitrary way. It's like fudging dice rolls, but worse. Fudging the dice isn't bad, unless your PCs know you do it. Fudging encounters isn't bad, either, until it becomes obvious to the PCs.
Kevtar 04-04-07, 04:03 PM	These are a couple of good suggestions. As far as the difference in levels, he is the only PC in the group that has only died once, and that is directly related to his build I think. As far as the combat vs. thinking encounters, that's a difficult one to manage for a couple of reasons. I usually have 7-9 players (all of which are teenagers - not that that's a bad thing, but just that they are teenagers) at the table when we play. They definitely like the combat-oriented sessions. Also, when we do have roleplaying/thinking/puzzling/non-combat scenarios, only a few players get a chance to participate which means that the group's cohesion breaks down. I would love to get the group back to nearly the same level again, but there are some players whose PCs just KEEP DYING! lol
calronmoonflower 04-04-07, 04:27 PM	Puzzles riddles and non-combat challenges can make a melee combat power house seem like a babe in the woods, but it depends on the person playing it. They might out think the rest of the PC instead of over powering them. If so you've probably located the problem. If your PCs like only bash the door down and and slash adventures it's far more difficult.
Praedoran 04-04-07, 04:28 PM	This question pops up all the time on the boards: where a single PC will outshine the rest. You let him have the build, knowing that it will outshine the others, so you may have to man up and say, you had your fun, time to tone it down. My bathroom reading at the moment is the Dummy's Guide to Dungeon Mastering. It says that this is a situation you should avoid, but if it happens, you may have to nerf the player to keep the encounters possible. You're the DM though, and it's well within your rights to press the "reset" button for him and everyone else. Then they can all be granted a character that you would not have allowed previously, but to be fair, will allow now since you let the VoP Gestalt Monkadin into the party. If you want the best solution however, you should talk with your players about it, not us. Is everyone still enjoying the game? Do they think he's bringing down the fun factor? Are they jealous you let him have a cheese character but disallow their crazy builds? He is, afterall, your son and they might see that as you giving him preferential treatment, a bad thing. These kinds of questions will give you the insight on what DM power you should flex and how to improve your game.
Radijs 04-04-07, 04:44 PM	I think that an elegant option is indeed to turn up the wealth a little. VoP won't scale up at the same pace re-establishing the balance of power.
Whisper_Swiftblade 04-04-07, 04:53 PM	for starters: WOW THAT IS A HUGE PARTY, HOW DO YOU EVER GET ANYTHING DONE? secondly, if you are looking to make the others a little stronger, a little more gold (or fun magical stuff) is all you need, you may also want to bring a little more RPing to the table so that his advanced battle skills are less of an issue, finnaly it seems like he has focused on grapples alot so perhaps you could try sending in some foes that he would not want to try to grapple (for example how exactly would someome grapple an air elemental?).
_SIN_ 04-04-07, 06:54 PM	Why not 'railroad' a group split for a couple of sessions, allowing one group (lvl 10/11) go one way, and the rest the other. Give the 11's the puzzles & the lowers the combat. When they meet up, the xp boost would bring them more in line level wise. Just be sure that the 11's don't get bored. Give them a tangible puzzle for them to ponder whilst you send your legions against the lower levels...
Kevtar 04-04-07, 07:42 PM	Then they can all be granted a character that you would not have allowed previously, but to be fair, will allow now since you let the VoP Gestalt Monkadin into the party. That was pretty funny If you want the best solution however, you should talk with your players about it, not us. Well, I wanted to get some insight on a "behind the curtain approach" before taking it to the group. Is everyone still enjoying the game? Yes. Very much so. Are they jealous you let him have a cheese character but disallow their crazy builds? I don't remember ever saying that was the case. I mean, I have a Cleric/Barbarian with the Strength and Destruction domains. That's a pretty crazy build. So, although I've not disallowed anyone's build, I'll have to be more cognizant of the possibility of jealousy over this PC. The next combat situation will be nice though, because it is the Aspect of Tiamat, and even with a 33 AC, the monk is going to get hit while everyone else can attack with spells and ranged weapons, so maybe that is a solution as well.
AZNsupermarket 04-04-07, 09:05 PM	er... I know this won't help you at all, but the min/maxer in me want to give you son advice for his next feat. I hope you don't mind too much, but here goes: Serenity - (paraphrased) for all the following paladin abilities: (Divine grace, lay on hands, smite evil and turn undead), replace charisma with wisdom. This feat comes from the Dragon Compendium Volume 1 and just seems too damn useful for his build. Again, sorry, but I just can't help myself.
Kimokeo 04-04-07, 10:12 PM	From looking at the levels of the characters and the challenge ratings for creatures to put against them, I don't see how Mr. Gaunt is invincible. The AC isn't beyond reach nor is the saving throws incredible either. Looking at the levels of the rest of the group, I don't think you should worry about someone in the group being knocked about. The 11th level wizard could be just as danagerous as Mr. Gaunt. If you need some opponents to put this character to task, flying helps, opponents at the top of walls, make the characters climb to their opponents, put them underwater, place the hero on the back of a griffon (and his buddies) and have them attacked while flying to their destination, use magic - the saves are nice, but the rolls still must succeed. Maybe it's just me - there are plenty of challenging beasts in the MM that could be fun to meet.
doink1212 04-04-07, 10:23 PM	What is his role in the group? Does he lead the way? Does he handle Diplomacy? Does he just stand around and wait to fight? You just after to find a way to get him in some kind of trouble. Not to pick on him... but something where he will be rescued. I need to know more to offer suggestions. Essentially what is your sons style of play.
rmccowen 04-04-07, 10:40 PM	A disclaimer... I also hang out (lurking, mostly) at the Character Optimization boards. His AC doesn't actually seem that obscene to me. A core-only fighter with level-appropriate gear and Combat Expertise would be hovering right around the same point. His saves are high, but that's to be expected with a Monk/Paladin build. So this isn't really a case of a problem player or a problem build, it's that most of your players don't optimize their characters, and your son does. Every optimized build has holes in it, though, and the most obvious one here is hit points. I heartily second (or third, or fourth) the idea of cranking up the magical gear you hand out as treasure; that will subtly bring the other PCs up closer to his power level. The other change I'd make is to start mixing up your encounters a little bit: focus slightly more on things that are CR-appropriate, but don't rely on hitting a high AC or getting past saves. Grappling creatures--think Huge earth elemental--are great for this, because they only need to hit a touch attack (and yeah, his grapple's good, but the size modifiers above Medium add up really fast). A warrior/mage multiclass would also be a great foe to throw at your party, since there are many ranged touch spells, particularly if you have access to the Spell Compendium, that don't allow saves. So are creatures, like incorporeal undead or assassins with wraithstrike, that make touch attacks instead of normal melee attacks. Basically, don't be obvious about it, but make sure that about half of your encounters have an element or two that can threaten him. If they're CR-appropriate, they won't particularly hurt the rest of the party, and they'll make the encounter more challenging for him.
Kevtar 04-04-07, 10:57 PM	From looking at the levels of the characters and the challenge ratings for creatures to put against them, I don't see how Mr. Gaunt is invincible. The AC isn't beyond reach nor is the saving throws incredible either. Looking at the levels of the rest of the group, I don't think you should worry about someone in the group being knocked about. The 11th level wizard could be just as danagerous as Mr. Gaunt. Yeah, you would think that. I mean, the barbarians survive on HP alone. The ranger survives on distance, but if something gets up close to him he's in trouble. The rest of the party though, tends to be a little... uh... what's the word... squishy If you need some opponents to put this character to task, flying helps, opponents at the top of walls, make the characters climb to their opponents, put them underwater, place the hero on the back of a griffon (and his buddies) and have them attacked while flying to their destination, use magic - the saves are nice, but the rolls still must succeed. These are really good suggetions, thanks. Maybe it's just me - there are plenty of challenging beasts in the MM that could be fun to meet. I thought that too, but here are just a handful of CR12 creatures. I usually up the CR when I have all the players present, although not all of the encounters are CR12. As you can see from the information below, James is well defended against the creatures, but the rest of the party is at a clear disadvantage. For instance, the highest AC apart from James is 25. Cadaver Collector Melee: +10 Needs a natural 20 to hit. Cerebelith Melee: +15/+10 SA: The DCs vary from 18-21 Needs an 18 to hit on first attack and natural 20 for the second Bronze dragon (adult) Melee: +23/+20 Breath: DC 23 Spells: DC 14-16 Needs a 10 to hit with first attack and 13 with the rest Mr. Gaunt needs to roll an 8 to avoid all damage from breath weapon and automatically succeeds on any spells cast by dragon (not that there really are any defensive spells that this dragon knows) White dragon (mature adult) Melee: +28/+25 Breath: DC 25 Spells: DC 14-17 Needs a 5 to hit on the first attack and an 8 on the rest. However, at this point any other PC in the party is automatically hit by the creature (unless of course it rolls a 1). James needs to roll a 13 to avoid damage from the breath weapon, if he fails, he receives half less his resistance. He automatically saves on most saves versus spells. Inevitable (Kolyarut) Melee: +11/+10 or +13 SA: DC 16-17 Needs a natural 20 to hit Mr. Gaunt. James needs any roll higher than one to save against SA. Leonal Melee: +20/+15 SA: DC 15-18 Needs a natural 20 to hit Mr. Gaunt. James needs to roll a 3 to save against SA. Purple Worm Melee: +25/+20 SA: DC 25 (poison) Needs an 8 on the first attack and a 13 on the second, but it will automatically hit the rest of the party (with the exception of a 1). James is immune to poison. In most encounters, there isn't one BBEG, but a group of smaller threats. In these situations, the grunts are usually working over the group because I know a 4th level warrior has no chance to hit James with a sword or bow.
Kevtar 04-04-07, 11:01 PM	What is his role in the group? Does he lead the way? Does he handle Diplomacy? Does he just stand around and wait to fight? You just after to find a way to get him in some kind of trouble. Not to pick on him... but something where he will be rescued. I need to know more to offer suggestions. Essentially what is your sons style of play. James enjoys simple pleasures like a book, eggs, and tea for breakfast. He is a man of few words and leaps into action without having to be told what to do. He prefers to charge into the fray and then grapple his foes. He handles diplomacy well and his player is one of the better roleplayers at the table. My son's style of player is very technical. He's usually maximizing position and other factors that assist him in combat. He's a by the book player and is the first to break out the calculator to use Pythagora's theorem when the distance of the ranger's bow is in question.
Kevtar 04-04-07, 11:04 PM	So this isn't really a case of a problem player or a problem build, it's that most of your players don't optimize their characters, and your son does. Every optimized build has holes in it, though, and the most obvious one here is hit points. True, true. Grappling creatures--think Huge earth elemental--are great for this, because they only need to hit a touch attack (and yeah, his grapple's good, but the size modifiers above Medium add up really fast). A warrior/mage multiclass would also be a great foe to throw at your party, since there are many ranged touch spells, particularly if you have access to the Spell Compendium, that don't allow saves. So are creatures, like incorporeal undead or assassins with wraithstrike, that make touch attacks instead of normal melee attacks. That's funny because he chose Clever Wrestling as a feat so that he can grapple larger creatures with a bonus. Good suggestions. Thanks
wizarddog 04-05-07, 01:07 AM	A rain of magic missiles? :P
StoryTellerSJEM 04-05-07, 07:31 AM	I ran a game with one guy who was 18th when everyone else was 11 to 14. Of course, I toned magic down a great deal but he still had better saves and fighting abilities than the others. I usually just used the CR table as a guideline (never going beyond 70% for a one time encounter for the day) and the players mostly did fine. The 18th level guy knew it was his duty to take on the toughest of the tough and as he was a paladin that went well enough. Best, SJEM
Nova Fujit 04-05-07, 07:48 AM	an army of kobolds with wands of magic missles are deadly to anyone =D I suggest something like a multi level cavern with high cliffs and ledges while your PC's walk in ono the lower levels
doink1212 04-05-07, 09:45 AM	James enjoys simple pleasures like a book, eggs, and tea for breakfast. He is a man of few words and leaps into action without having to be told what to do. He prefers to charge into the fray and then grapple his foes. He handles diplomacy well and his player is one of the better roleplayers at the table. My son's style of player is very technical. He's usually maximizing position and other factors that assist him in combat. He's a by the book player and is the first to break out the calculator to use Pythagora's theorem when the distance of the ranger's bow is in question. There are a couple of interesting things you can do. First of all a Wizard/Rogue NPC Villian that has a grudge against him would provide hours of entertainment. Use spell to slip poison into his tea... this can be as simple as minor creation(I think) to mage hand... the the NPC already has poison. If he has an interest in books he could always come across a cursed one. Your son likes to roleplay so most of this stuff will be flavor that he can enjoy. Hunting down the NPC that has a grudge against him would be interesting as it is a Wizard/Rogue/Wayfarer Guide. This will allow the NPC to teleport great distances with a large number of minions... possibly even into a battle that has already begun. (the only reason I said rogue is because of their inherent sneakiness.) Make your son a magnet for trouble. Other than that bring in better grapplers. List of some monsters Astral Stalker CR 12 AC 30 Grapple 19 (MMIII) Bonedrinker CR 6 AC 17 Grapple 14 + Con DMG (MMIII) A group of these will make your son think twice before running into the fray. Dread Harpoon Spider CR 9 AC 19 Grapple 21 (MMIII) Chuul CR 7 AC 22 Grapple 17 (MI) Vampire is always fun to play around with. Go into Libris mortis and pick up some feats like Resist turning and make a group of them battle ready. The draining constition DMG is nice. Looking through the first couple pages of monster manuals there are plenty of things that you can send against your son that could possibly get him into a jam. Most of these creatures have low enough ACs that they are easy to hit so the rest of your crew can assist. If you know he wont go into melee with these creatures... the NPC i talked about earlier can change their appearence to make them looking like a group of angry gnolls or something. Get creative and start thinking like him.
DMsDelight 04-05-07, 10:12 AM	I thought that too, but here are just a handful of CR12 creatures. I usually up the CR when I have all the players present, although not all of the encounters are CR12. As you can see from the information below, James is well defended against the creatures, but the rest of the party is at a clear disadvantage. For instance, the highest AC apart from James is 25. This may not quite apply, bu I found that the key to Big parties is more monsters, rather than one BBEG, as the BBEG can either die in one round or severly TPK the party. Perhaps the group of NPC's have heard of the Argent Fist's prowess, and have challenged him. 9th level Wands of Magic Missile, 1st round of combat, trio of bad guys....all aimed at him. Second round, one continues his assault on Argent Fist, the other two concentrate fire on the other group members. This way, it puts the argent fist in serious harm, but gives the other PC's a challenge.
drake_vampiel_d 04-05-07, 11:01 AM	I will admit I don't know much about the PrC Argent Fist but I was wondering how he has AC33? with 10 (base)+5 (wis)+4(dex)+_ (VOP, I don't have the book on me right now but I'm sure it's not 19)? but with VOP is pretty easy to work around because if he wants to use a potion sorry can't, What a wand that will grant a Wish sorry can't use it. Heck to use that potion he needs to be knocked out and have someone give it to him. (I personally am using aMonk with VOP in a campain and it's hard for me not to break VOP because it's very high maintanence)
Solik 04-05-07, 12:41 PM	Pretty good touch AC, but not insurmountable. Consider incorporeal creatures. Any spells without saves are also good. This is a pretty defensive build. He doesn't have a lot of firepower. I think the best option is to just ignore him and have the monsters focus on attacking the other characters, who should be capable of dishing out far, far more pain than this guy. Defensive capabilities don't do much good when your allies are the ones getting reamed.
lears_fool 04-05-07, 01:02 PM	After reading through the thread again, I've got to say that Praedoran started off with the best fix. Increase the party's wealth first. THEN throw in tougher challenges that'll give the whole newly-balanced party a run for their money. I've always made it a rule that, in non RP-heavy campaigns, balance BETWEEN the party memebers is crucial. . if the players like to fight then they all should have fun in combats and no one guy should be the focus. When you hit that point the answer is not to focus challenges on him but rather to help the others become equal. With Vow of Poverty it's remarkably easy to do, but you will end up with a higher power level among the party. THAT however is a lot easier to balance and design encounters for.
Aeromus 04-05-07, 03:35 PM	These are a couple of good suggestions. As far as the difference in levels, he is the only PC in the group that has only died once, and that is directly related to his build I think. As far as the combat vs. thinking encounters, that's a difficult one to manage for a couple of reasons. I usually have 7-9 players (all of which are teenagers - not that that's a bad thing, but just that they are teenagers) at the table when we play. They definitely like the combat-oriented sessions. Also, when we do have roleplaying/thinking/puzzling/non-combat scenarios, only a few players get a chance to participate which means that the group's cohesion breaks down. I would love to get the group back to nearly the same level again, but there are some players whose PCs just KEEP DYING! lol Well if thier dying is the cause of the level gap, change the way death effects the char sheet. Have them LOSE the xp, but keep levels. ie if they die, the drop the xp, but don't actually lose the level. Still takes longer to level but they stay closer to power level of the ones that don't die.
Kevtar 04-05-07, 03:44 PM	I will admit I don't know much about the PrC Argent Fist but I was wondering how he has AC33? with 10 (base)+5 (wis)+4(dex)+_ (VOP, I don't have the book on me right now but I'm sure it's not 19)? Ah -- yeah, I am using DMGenie, and I just realized that he was under the effect of a Mage Armor Mass spell from the last encounter and the condition didn't clear. His AC is actually 29, T21, FF25. VOP is pretty easy to work around because if he wants to use a potion sorry can't, What a wand that will grant a Wish sorry can't use it. Heck to use that potion he needs to be knocked out and have someone give it to him. (I personally am using aMonk with VOP in a campain and it's hard for me not to break VOP because it's very high maintanence) Well, the VoP doesn't say you can't use those items, it just says you can't own those items. For instance, a PC with the VoP cannot own magic items or even spell components. However, the BoED makes note that a PC can beg components from other party members who are "probably gaining as much benefit from having the spell cast as the caster is." (BoED, pg. 30) This player plays the VoP well and doesn't munchkin things like, "well, let me borrow your +2 Flaming Holy bow for this encounter" (nudge nudge), but at the same time, if he's down to 2 hit points and someone offers him a potion (which is a life-saving act of charity), then he takes it. I think that's allowed within the auspices of the VoP. In fact, I just read the feat description now and it says, "You may not use any magic item of any sort, though you can benefit from magic items used on your behalf -- you can drink a potion of cure light wounds a friend gives you, receive a spell cast from a wand, scroll, or staff, or ride on your companion's ebony fly. You may not however, 'borrow' a cloak of resistance or any other magic item..." (BoED, Pg. 48, emphasis in original) So, without buffs, James Gaunt isn't too much of a challenge. However, when the Wizard casts Mage Armor Mass, and other effects, it complicates things. Perhaps some well-placed dispel magic spells would be sufficient.
Kimokeo 04-05-07, 04:15 PM	I was thinking the same thing about his AC. Can you describe how the AC is 29?
Kimokeo 04-05-07, 04:24 PM	Ok, while I'm looking at his AC, how did the stats come about? If you're rolling dice with 18 being the highest, then two of his stats being over 18 (two are 20's) were increased by a total of 4 points. Level 4th and 8th allow 2 points. Where'd the other two come from?
Muspelheim 04-05-07, 07:17 PM	Pretty good touch AC, but not insurmountable. Consider incorporeal creatures. Any spells without saves are also good. This is a pretty defensive build. He doesn't have a lot of firepower. I think the best option is to just ignore him and have the monsters focus on attacking the other characters, who should be capable of dishing out far, far more pain than this guy. Defensive capabilities don't do much good when your allies are the ones getting reamed. (emphasis mine) This is key. The monk/pally has somewhat decent defensive capabilities (at least if he gets his AC buffed by the party casters), but his offense is pretty pathetic for a level 11 character.
Perseus_Stoned 04-05-07, 07:29 PM	er... I know this won't help you at all, but the min/maxer in me want to give you son advice for his next feat. I hope you don't mind too much, but here goes: Serenity - (paraphrased) for all the following paladin abilities: (Divine grace, lay on hands, smite evil and turn undead), replace charisma with wisdom. This feat comes from the Dragon Compendium Volume 1 and just seems too damn useful for his build. Again, sorry, but I just can't help myself. Wow.. that is an amazing feat and is really useful advice (if he passes it on... doesn't look like he will though). To everoyne about the armor class here is how it breaks down: Dex 4 + Wis 5 + 10 + 2 Monk + 7 Exalted + 1 Natural Armor + 1 Deflection = 30 (I found 30 instead of 29, I might have miscalculated something). I would like to point out that he said the Argent Fist and Ascetic Knight feat allowed his monk/paladin abilities to overlap (I did not double-check these, but assumed that meant he would have the AC of a level 10/11 monk). The Vow of Poverty then grants a +7 AC bonus (exalted; level 9), a +1 Natural Armor bonus (level 8), and a +1 Deflection bonus (level 6). Really all you can do is dish out some powerful magic items for the party, but if your son is playing well it sounds wrong to boost everyone else so, when tactics aren't viable, they really outshine him and otherwise he's just as good. Offer to help optimize anyone who complains about a lack of power, but beyond that just play the game. Also can someone please tell me where to find the "Running on Water" feat?
drake_vampiel_d 04-05-07, 08:38 PM	Ah -- yeah, I am using DMGenie, and I just realized that he was under the effect of a Mage Armor Mass spell from the last encounter and the condition didn't clear. His AC is actually 29, T21, FF25. Well, the VoP doesn't say you can't use those items, it just says you can't own those items. For instance, a PC with the VoP cannot own magic items or even spell components. However, the BoED makes note that a PC can beg components from other party members who are "probably gaining as much benefit from having the spell cast as the caster is." (BoED, pg. 30) This player plays the VoP well and doesn't munchkin things like, "well, let me borrow your +2 Flaming Holy bow for this encounter" (nudge nudge), but at the same time, if he's down to 2 hit points and someone offers him a potion (which is a life-saving act of charity), then he takes it. I think that's allowed within the auspices of the VoP. In fact, I just read the feat description now and it says, "You may not use any magic item of any sort, though you can benefit from magic items used on your behalf -- you can drink a potion of cure light wounds a friend gives you, receive a spell cast from a wand, scroll, or staff, or ride on your companion's ebony fly. You may not however, 'borrow' a cloak of resistance or any other magic item..." (BoED, Pg. 48, emphasis in original) So, without buffs, James Gaunt isn't too much of a challenge. However, when the Wizard casts Mage Armor Mass, and other effects, it complicates things. Perhaps some well-placed dispel magic spells would be sufficient. after getting ahold of my books I reread it any your right he can't own those things but they can be given to him to use which still puts a slowing effect cause if I only have 1 PCLW and nothing else sorry I'm probably going to need this.
drake_vampiel_d 04-05-07, 08:51 PM	one quick question where is the Ardent fist?? I'm looking through my books and can't find it. I'm thinking of creating one and throwing it in a fighting tourney that I'm running and see what people think
Perseus_Stoned 04-05-07, 08:56 PM	one quick question where is the Ardent fist?? I'm looking through my books and can't find it. I'm thinking of creating one and throwing it in a fighting tourney that I'm running and see what people think http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/prc Its spelled "argent".
danielinthewolvesden 04-05-07, 09:07 PM	Well if thier dying is the cause of the level gap, change the way death effects the char sheet. Have them LOSE the xp, but keep levels. ie if they die, the drop the xp, but don't actually lose the level. Still takes longer to level but they stay closer to power level of the ones that don't die. Or do what I do- they lose eps down to the start of the level they are at, but never an actual level. So here's a few things to do: 1. When you hand out eps, you do know that the lower level PC get more eps according to the charts. Increase that difference by 50%. So it is would be : 11th level PC's get 2000 and 9th level PC's (would get 3000 make it) 4500". 2.Send a few more low level monsters the parties way- so low that the 11th level PC's get no eps from the encounter. Do one of these a day. 3. Through next few hoards, have a special magic item tailored to each of the other PC's (not in each next hoard, but scattered through them, starting with the lower level PC's first, one each.) Make sure the item is so good they will never sell it, and adds to their survivabilty. Add a quirk for each, so that they find a set of Soulfire armour (thats a +4 bonus armour from BoED) that is the type the dwarf wears and it has a quirk that it can only be worn by Dwarven clerics. A set of Bearskin armour for the Elf Barbarian/Bear Totem, Luckblade (no wishes, keyed for use only for someone with a luck abilty) for the Halfling Rogue /Fortune's Friend, and so forth. The quirk reduces the value by half so there is yet another reason to keep it and not sell it.:D 4. Have encounters with a special BBEG for the monk but plenty of mooks for the lesser PC's.
thecasualoblivion 04-05-07, 09:16 PM	I once played in a game like this, though I was the PC who was vastly tougher than the rest of the party. We were playing a low-magic, low-treasure game being run by a rather vicious DM, and I had managed to gain level 4 without dying. He misjudged an encounter, and killed off half of the party, leaving only myself, a 3rd level Bard, and a 3rd level Wizard alive. The other players had to start over at level 1. There I was, a 4th level fighter with an AC -2(AD&D, and my 17 Dex, I survived that long for a reason) when the next best character had AC3 and 39 HP fighting alongside 1st level characters. He tried a few things, like making one big nasty that challenged me to single combat, but a lot of 1st level characters still died. It was only when he powered up the other players that things became fixed. I was still by far the most powerful, but eventually people began to survive.
Kevtar 04-06-07, 08:19 AM	Wow.. that is an amazing feat and is really useful advice (if he passes it on... doesn't look like he will though). To everoyne about the armor class here is how it breaks down: Dex 4 + Wis 5 + 10 + 2 Monk + 7 Exalted + 1 Natural Armor + 1 Deflection = 30 (I found 30 instead of 29, I might have miscalculated something). I would like to point out that he said the Argent Fist and Ascetic Knight feat allowed his monk/paladin abilities to overlap (I did not double-check these, but assumed that meant he would have the AC of a level 10/11 monk). The Vow of Poverty then grants a +7 AC bonus (exalted; level 9), a +1 Natural Armor bonus (level 8), and a +1 Deflection bonus (level 6). Really all you can do is dish out some powerful magic items for the party, but if your son is playing well it sounds wrong to boost everyone else so, when tactics aren't viable, they really outshine him and otherwise he's just as good. Offer to help optimize anyone who complains about a lack of power, but beyond that just play the game. Also can someone please tell me where to find the "Running on Water" feat? Running on water is a variant class ability for monks from "Stormwrack." It replaces the slowfall ability. Basically, you can move over water for the same distance you can normally slowfall. It's been a great feat for him since we have been running a sea-based campaign (with a slight detour through the Red Hand of Doom).
Kevtar 04-06-07, 08:21 AM	one quick question where is the Ardent fist?? I'm looking through my books and can't find it. I'm thinking of creating one and throwing it in a fighting tourney that I'm running and see what people think This PrC is from the Faiths of Eberron book. It's the first Eberron stuff I've allowed in my campaign. I'm considering running an Eberron campaign, but just haven't gotten to know all of the ins and outs of it yet.
Kevtar 04-06-07, 08:25 AM	...which still puts a slowing effect cause if I only have 1 PCLW and nothing else sorry I'm probably going to need this. Yeah, that's definitely true. We've been lucky though since this group works together pretty well -- I've been surprised considering some of the personalities at the table tend to clash in "real life." Overall, we've had pretty civil sessions with only one player who is consistently "less-kind/gracious" than the rest of the group. That is the only PC who is not initially willing to expend resources on other party members. Everyone else seems to understand the idea of teamwork.
Kevtar 04-06-07, 08:29 AM	Wow.. that is an amazing feat and is really useful advice (if he passes it on... doesn't look like he will though) Feat? Feat? What feat? I do not know of this thing which you speak. :) I think I'm done giving him hints on min/maxing builds -- I told him about the Argent Fist, so I've done my part much to my own chagrin, now the rest is up to him. Good thing he doesn't use these forums!
Archangel62 04-06-07, 08:49 AM	To be honest part of the problem is that your son is a mild optimizer and the others don't optimize at all. Monk and paladin are both on the lower end of power and the fact of the matter is that while he has good defense he is offensively rather poor. An idea might be to look at encounters that give the rest of the group a chance to function and also, your son is RPing well, maybe give a unique challenge where he has to deal with one problem while the group does the main event. Maybe he keeps this big threat off them while they do htis other thing. He gets to have fun with a strong character and they get to accomplish something using their characters abilities. Just an idea.
drake_vampiel_d 04-06-07, 12:08 PM	Ahhh the "Faiths of Eberron" I'm not sure I'll have to see if I own that one if you were going to use Eberron stuff for the first time I would have suggested just the Eberron Handbook for starters let them use the new races (like warforged) and classes.
Sunic_Flames 04-06-07, 01:40 PM	I realize I'm probably in the minority here... but I'd say this is more an issue of the other party members being low end than him being high end. After all, what business does a buncha level 8-11s have with an AC of 17-21? Given the attack bonuses of creatures around this level they're looking at being hit on a 2. Not to mention, that's level 3ish AC. AC 29 in the same situation is hit on a 9, which is slightly below average and consider, he built a very defensive oriented character. And the example I came up with was straight out of the books, any remotely revised encounter (which ideally should be all published ones, because as written they are fodder in near all cases) will have better results.
Kevtar 04-06-07, 02:37 PM	I realize I'm probably in the minority here... but I'd say this is more an issue of the other party members being low end than him being high end. After all, what business does a buncha level 8-11s have with an AC of 17-21? Given the attack bonuses of creatures around this level they're looking at being hit on a 2. Not to mention, that's level 3ish AC. AC 29 in the same situation is hit on a 9, which is slightly below average and consider, he built a very defensive oriented character. And the example I came up with was straight out of the books, any remotely revised encounter (which ideally should be all published ones, because as written they are fodder in near all cases) will have better results. You make an interesting point. I took nine 9-10 CR monsters from the SRD and looked at their first attack bonuses in relation to the PC's AC. Here's what I got: Mon1 Mon2 Mon3 Mon4 Mon5 Mon6 Mon7 Mon8 Mon9 19 20 23 14 8 9 18 14 10 PC AC PC #1 25 30% 25% 10% 55% 85% 80% 35% 55% 75% PC #2 27 40% 35% 20% 65% 95% 90% 45% 65% 85% PC #3 21 10% 5% 5% 35% 65% 60% 15% 35% 55% PC #4 20 5% 0% 5% 30% 60% 55% 10% 30% 50% James 29 50% 45% 30% 75% 95% 95% 55% 75% 95% PC #6 22 15% 10% 5% 40% 70% 65% 20% 40% 60% PC #7 22 15% 10% 5% 40% 70% 65% 20% 40% 60% PC #8 25 30% 25% 10% 55% 85% 80% 35% 55% 75% PC #9 23 20% 15% 5% 45% 75% 70% 25% 45% 65% From this data, the mean average miss percentage for CRs 9-10 per party member are the following: PC Miss Mean Average PC #1 50% PC #2 60% PC #3 32% PC #4 27% James 68% PC #6 36% PC #7 36% PC #8 50% PC #9 41% So James is getting hit 30 per cent of the time, while nearly every other PC is getting hit at least 50 per cent of the time. So, the problem may be that the other PCs are just not defensively up to snuff with the CRs. Also, I mean, I may be biased, but I think my son is a better player than most of the people at the table. That seems to be manifested in his build, his rolepaying, and in his number of character deaths in relation to the other players. Granted, I have to try and be objective here, but I don't think I'm giving him preferential treatment. In fact, I think my two sons who play in the group (16 & 13 yrs old) would argue that perhaps I'm too stingy and a bit of a stickler with them, but my older son in particular, is great at D&D. All of the players who are 8th & 9th level are really close to leveling. I think I will have the players with the 11th level PCs hang-out downstairs and play video games or something for one session while I take the lower-level PCs on a short foray for XP and treasure.
lears_fool 04-07-07, 12:41 AM	All of the players who are 8th & 9th level are really close to leveling. I think I will have the players with the 11th level PCs hang-out downstairs and play video games or something for one session while I take the lower-level PCs on a short foray for XP and treasure. I think that's a pretty good strategy. If you balance the party between each other so they all have very similar power levels it is a LOT easier to make combat and such entertaining for everyone.