Post/Author/DateTime	Post
xvthreetwoonevx 01-26-06, 01:13 AM	One of my players is a Human fighter. His first feats were EWP:Spiked Chain, Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip. As you can probably tell, almost every melee enemy I throw at him is on the ground helpless for the rest of the encounter. Now, at 1st this isn't so bad, as I run much less of a risk of accidentaly killing anybody, but i'm kind of worried about later levels. How do you guys deal with trippers? So far the only way to avoid being tripped, as I see it, is being able to fly, or being a caster so it doesn't matter if you're tripped. Are these the only way to challenge trippers, with the exception of larger monsters? Is there any especial weakness that i'm completely overlooking here? Mind you, i'm not trying to kill him, but if the BBEG is a melee barbarian who hates magic, it's a little anti-climactic for him to be flat on his back the whole battle, no?
WCH 01-26-06, 01:29 AM	Easiest solution ever: be significantly stronger than him. Trip is an opposed strength check, with the tripper getting a +4 bonus if he has Improved Trip, and each combatant getting a +4 bonus for every size category larger than medium or for having more than two legs, and a -4 bonus for every size category smaller than medium. A Centaur, therefore, has a +12 on the check (+4 size, +4 quadraped, +4 Str), plus any base modifier from point buy/dice rolls. A Centaur with a base 18 Str would have a +16 on the check, against the human fighter's measly +8, and that's assuming he too has 18 Str. Or, you can get the size advantage in reverse: have the enemy casters use Reduce Person on him, causing him to get a total -5 to his trip attempts (-2 Str and the size penalty for being small). That would totally negate his Improved Trip bonus, meaning any reasonably strong monster (say, a Bugbear or a Gnoll) would have no trouble resisting the trip attempt. Trip is, indeed, the atom-bomb of melee actions, but it's limited in its application, as it only works against Medium or smaller bipedal creatures that don't have huge strength. Even against a normal humanoid, it's not certain to work... a +4 advantage on it means success 70% of the time, but that other 30% the PC gets no attack at all. Ways of negating the trip completely, not just making it hard: - fly - levitate - don't have legs (hard to trip a gibbering mouther) - take the feat (can't remember what it's called, but in CW there's a feat that lets you stand without provoking AoO) - be incorporeal/ethereal - stay out of range - disarm/sunder the tripper's chain
j_gunder 01-26-06, 01:39 AM	Edit: Dah! Beat to the punch... Throw him up against enemies with stability, like dwarves, or other monster-races that have similar abilities. Also, medium-sized enemies with four legs...quadrapeds are much more difficult to trip. Also, especially in encounters with multiple enemies, once they see a few of their comrades tripped, have them ready actions to counter that tactic. Have more encounters start at longer distances with ranged weapons first, to soften up the fighter and make him re-think his actions. Other tactics include enemy spellcasters with heat metal, enemy fighters with improved sunder or disarm and, the bane of all trippers...another tripper. You are correct, once you start introducing larger enemies you will have an easier time of it...until your fighter gets access to enlarge or other spells that equalize. Then it gets messy, especially if you give the player access to feats from a lot of different sources...your best bet then is to work through multiple-opponent combats or enemies with invisibility, hit-and-run tactics, et cetera. If you still have problems, just up the EL of encounters a bit to adjust. Eventually, you will find a happy medium. Admittedly, though...with the number of feats available to a tripper (and the bonuses from the chain), you will always have problems with a straight-up fight. Just use different tactics (aerial combat, underwater combat).
Furious D 18 01-26-06, 01:45 AM	Your problem: Tripper My problem: Grappler A guy in my game always grapples. Plus he takes Bull's Strength and Enlarge Person potions to always get the upper hand. I feel your pain.
Illion the Red 01-26-06, 11:51 AM	Your problem: Tripper My problem: Grappler A guy in my game always grapples. Plus he takes Bull's Strength and Enlarge Person potions to always get the upper hand. I feel your pain. Vampires make short work of grapplers...especially if the grappler doesn't realize what he's up against right away. The cheapest (perhaps cheesiest) way to neutralize a tripper is by hitting them from range...even throwing things works. Tanglefoot bags are a good place to start, followed by flasks of alchemists fire, acid, or whatever other alchemical fun you have on hand. Try this with a bunch of low-level throwers. Add in some caltrops to further slow down the tripper and suddenly they are feeling as neutralized as they make others feel.
nastynate 01-26-06, 12:32 PM	Once your players get savy enough to realize and utilize the strategically advantageous mechanics, it's time to do the same as a DM. First thing you have to learn is that while improved trip is perhaps one of the most effective combat techniques available to a melee based character, it is counterable. In a different thread not too long ago I listed some effective anti-tripping tech, but rather than search and link it I'll just post a quick summary. Big Boys: Tripping requires an oppossed strength check, so stronger enemies have the advantage. Additionally for each size catergory larger than medium the foe gets a +4 bonus to its check; quadrupeds also get a +4 bonus. So enemies like a dire bear, which are strong, big, quadrupeds are virtually untrippable enemies. Tumble: You can tumble through threatened squares without provoking attacks of opportunity. With a DC 25 tumble check you can even tumble directly through the tripper's square and come out behind him. Have the tumbler move towards the tripper with an ally behind them (the ally have cover :D ) and then tumble through their sqaure. You'll get two foes right up next to the tripper on both sides, and you know what that means, flanking; you know who has tumble as a class skill and high dexterity score? Rogues, and they have this nifty ability called sneak attack. Elementary stuff, I know, but boy will it do a number on the tripper. Spring Attack: What people don't often realize is that the tripper often relies on reach to gain attacks of opportunity. That way they can trip somebody at a safe distance and not lose the option to make a full attack. Spring attack (and it's kin ride-by-attack) enables an enemy to get inside their reach. Ride-by-attack is even better because you'll be mounted on a large, strong quadruped, that is much harder to trip, and usually you'll deal more damage charging than the spiked chain tripper can in retaliation. A cavalier will destroy a spiked chain tripper with ride-by-attack. Dervishes also work pretty well because they get spring attack, great AC bonuses while fighting defensively (that won't be negated by touch attacks), and tumble as a class skill. Ranged Attacks: Bows and spells...what is a melee tripper going to do against bows and spells? Nothing as effective as their primary technique, I would venture to say. Disarm & Sunder: While as a DM I tend to avoid sundering by PCs weapons, because they go insane with anger, it is an effective counter. Try pitting them against an archer with the ranged disarm ability. This technique is crippling to a tripper. Prone Attack: This often under-utilized feat is the bane of the tripper. A prone foe with this feat suffers no attack penalty while prone, and should they strike the tripper in melee, they can regain their footing as a free action, without provoking an attack of opportunity. I can offer some other helpful tips if you want, but with these five techniques you should have no further problems. These are all common things, so it isn't hard to justify them in a story. Just don't suddenly have every opponent pre-equiped with anti-tripper techniques, or your spiked chain player will be miffed (and rightfully so). Good luck, and good gaming. :)
Jutter 01-26-06, 01:09 PM	One of my players is a Human fighter. His first feats were EWP:Spiked Chain, Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip. I used this build once as a player, and I use it sometimes as a DM. It has a few weaknesses. - Some opponents are more resistant to being tripped then others. Stability (dwarfs), more legs, bigger, more strength, etc. - Use less tough, but significantly more opponents. - Disarm and sunder. Without a spiked chain, the character runs relatively low on options. - Grapple him so he doesn't have any threatened squares left. - Use ranged weapons. - The character has a relatively low will and reflex save. Use appropriate magic. If you want him to be in for a real challenge, a skullcrusher ogre (MM3) with a spiked chain is large, intelligent enough for the fighter INT-feats, has a nice strength score and has 20 ft reach. A few class levels in fighter, barbarian and possibly frenzied berserker (CW) makes it a nice challenge for my party, scalable at CR 5 (without class levels) and higher (with class levels). Don't forget, the player put some efford in creating a character, so don't make his PC useless in every encounter. It'll take the fun out of the game for the player. Reward him for thinking up a strong build, but regularly remind him of the weaknesses. Don't make everything spiked chain proof, but implement enough to keep the game fun and challenging for everybody.
Orcboss 01-26-06, 01:53 PM	Oozes can't be tripped. Rust monsters can be tripped, but does he really want to attack one? All the standard vs. fighter tricks (essentially anything with a Will save) will work fine.
2nd Ed Paladin 01-26-06, 05:33 PM	So to summarize: You need someone really strong, with a ranged attack, a rogue with sneak attack and the ability to cast spells I present the ULTIMATE anti-tripper (you need to look at strip #55, can't seem to link there directly, use the pull down menu in the top right) http://www.casual-gamers.com/
Orcboss 01-26-06, 06:09 PM	You need someone really strong, with a ranged attack, a rogue with sneak attack and the ability to cast spells Now that you put it like that, an Ogre Magi with a few rogue levels would just about do the job.
Balor von Balorvitch 01-26-06, 07:02 PM	Ok use bestow curse -4 on both trip parts! or better a Hexblade to curse this PC, and using the curse feat selection from Dragon 339, take Empower curse, Curse/ Dire Curse him to reduce his check respectively (Thas -3, -5 with greater, -7 with Dire) and then use extend curse to keep him that way the whole day. Although I am a hexblade, soo everything i told you just reversed for extra tripping :devil:
Cathon 01-26-06, 07:18 PM	The important thing to realize is that fighters in general tend to be disproportionately strong at early levels, trip fighters are just a specialized variety. As noted, quadruped opponents will be more challenging to trip, Worgs are a good low level one. Don't forget that while in 3.5 standing up provokes an attack of opportunity, it happens before the event in question, so it is an attack on a prone opponent and can't be a trip attack (but does get +4), so no endless trip loops. Don't forget that a fighter is still a fighter and my trip fighter was frequently taken out of the action for a while just by an orc acolyte casting cause fear. Finally don't forget that to become a spiked chain trip fighter you need to invest 3 feats and have a minimum int of 13. The fighter is giving up points in other stats to get that int, giving up damage by using a spiked chain and giving up benefits he could have gained via another feat package. (Say power attack, cleave and combat reflexes with a martial reach weapon, that can mow them down pretty quick too.) Let the fighter shine for a little while before everyone starts going down to fireballs before the fighter can even get there.
TheChilliGod 01-26-06, 07:36 PM	Also, don't forget that the real threat in being a tripper are the AoO's you get to make, when the opponent is busy getting up. So therefore, anything that negates AoO's of any sort (Not just the feat WCH mentioned which would only apply while prone) is a great yay. Total Concealment prevents any AoO's from being made. So invisibility or complete darkness would make the prospect of tripping rather useless, as well as making it extra difficult to hit in the first place. I tells ya, it's hell wit that. I have my own Chain Tripper PC, and he lost to a samurai PC with the shadow template (from LoM) of the same ECL in a friendly duel, all because of the hell Total Concealment puts ya through.
jagraham 01-26-06, 08:04 PM	I'd avoid the arms race, since it will dominate the game for the other players. Let the fighter trip enemies like crazy until he is bored with it and role play to speed up the boredom. Since he always trips and hits hitting opponents while they are down, he will develop a reputation amongst other fighters as a bit of a coward and might be called "Jack The Tripper" or some other nonsense. In battle, after taking out three or four guys by tripping them, when facing their boss, he can taunt the character: "Cowardly son of a *****! You can't face a man on his feet! Should I lie down now so you can fight?" Then he kills the bad guy of course, but maybe not by tripping him.
danielinthewolvesden 01-26-06, 11:41 PM	Hmm, are you thinking that a tripper can trip his foe with the AoO the tripper gets when his foe used a Mover action to stand? If so, he can't. The Foe is still prone at that point in time, thus the foe cannot be tripped. Anyway, as Cathon said- let the Fighter have his fun. Later on, all he'll be is a meat shield whilst the spellcasters do all the killing. :weep:
YRM 01-27-06, 12:34 AM	You said the main bad guy is a barbarian who hates magic. Does he hate magic spells? Or does he hate all magic items? Things your barbarian could do: - Wear boots of levitation or winged boots. - Try to sunder the spiked chain with his great sword or great axe. - Take Complete Warrior feats that help you to stand up, avoid attacks while standing up, or even dish an attack upon standing up. I think there's a feat that lets you fight from the ground pretty well. - Lots of ranks in Tumble allow for a "kip up". (I think it's DC25?) You'll want to give him Tumble anyway so he can get inside the spiked chain. - Simply be amazingly accurate... fighting from the ground is only -4 to attack... he could make a touch attack and try to start a grapple from the ground if he has improved grapple. - Massive STR, and Rage will make him hard to trip. - Give him Improved Trip too, so that he also gets +4 on Trip Checks. - Would the magic hating Barbarian not drink a tribal shaman brew of Bull's STR potion? - What if the Barbarian had some kind of Stunning Attack (from weapon or feat)? A stunned opponent drops whatever they were holding. - Would the magic hating Barbarian not drink a tribal shaman brew of Enlarge Person (+1 to STR, +4 Size bonus on Trip checks... and reach). Do any of those work for you?
Leress 01-27-06, 12:41 AM	Oozes can't be tripped. Same for Purple worm, swarms, ghosts, wraths and the like.
bhu 01-28-06, 02:17 PM	2 words: Rust Monster.
nastynate 01-28-06, 02:53 PM	2 words: Rust Monster.These little buggers and Mordenkainen's disjunction are the two tactics I will never again use as DM vs. my players...all your doing is destroying everything they earned over the course of their adventuring. They're like level damaging attacks that cannot be "fixed" with restoration. This a cop-out technique that DMs use when they are too lazy to put as much effort into the PC foes, as the players did with their characters. When you use these tactics you are essentially just trying to f**k them over; and they know it...bad karma man. Not to mention, the tripper can buy another spiked chain (his feats aren't gone), so it's just a temporary fix, that infuriates your players, and costs them lots of hard earned money. My PCs would rather face death (there's always resurrection), than lose an irreplacable magic item. Just use effective tactics (spring attack, tower shields, big monsters, tumbling, etc.), like the player did when he made his character...seems a bit more on the fair side doesn't it? He won't be pi**ed off when he can't trip a dire bear, but he'll hate your guts when a rust moster eats his chain.
bhu 01-28-06, 04:53 PM	He never mentioned the chain was magic did he? And normal Spiked Chains arent horribly expensive, so he really isnt out much unless he's dead broke too. The only way this really nerfs the pc is if he has no backup weapon, in which case, yes, the Rust Monster is a little heavy handed.
LordofNightmares 01-28-06, 05:05 PM	He has already mentioned that the BBEG BBN is a Magophobe, which leaves mundane tactics. I reccomend Fighting from Horseback. Horses are Strong, and with soe mfeats for Riding Archery the BBN could be brutal, and if you ever get removed from your horse Trip him back or grapple him.
Traevanon 01-29-06, 11:19 AM	Ya, trippers are annoying but you can learn to deal with them. I have found that fliers and huge creatures will eventually be their downfall, but that's usually not until later in level. The guy has one trick. Let him use it sometimes. For the big bad guy: A barb should have a reasonably decent touch AC I would think. Without building it specifically against the one character (lame) I would suggest dodge and mobility which would add another +1 overall AC and another +4 against AoO's caused by movement (the opportunity caused by standing up is a movement opportunity, but not the followup to the trip). Other than that, maybe the BBEG is fond of Dex Poison (like Terinav Root pg 297 DMG). Remember Barbarians might be Magophobic, but its usually only to Arcane Magic. Maybe a Shaman lieutenant can try to cast Hold Person (2nd Cleric) on him. His Will Saves are bound to be low. A lower level Cleric Lieutenant might use Doom or Bane followed by Cause Fear. If you include a Druid, Entangle or Obscuring Mist will be your best options. Good luck!
kinjojones 01-29-06, 12:35 PM	Don't forget that while in 3.5 standing up provokes an attack of opportunity, it happens before the event in question, so it is an attack on a prone opponent and can't be a trip attack (but does get +4), so no endless trip loops. Is that true? Is there somewhere in the RAW that supports this? I just got A group of 3 advanced lizardmen C2 with their leader CR4 with levels of fighter completely destroyed single handedly by a lvl 3 monk because of endless trip loops myself.
nastynate 01-29-06, 01:24 PM	Is that true? Is there somewhere in the RAW that supports this? I just got A group of 3 advanced lizardmen C2 with their leader CR4 with levels of fighter completely destroyed single handedly by a lvl 3 monk because of endless trip loops myself. Yeah it is supported by the RAW. Attacks of opportunity interrupt the normal flow of combat, and take place before the action which provokes them. Therefore while standing from a prone position does provoke an attack of opportunity, the victim of the attack is still prone when it happens; Prone characters cannot be tripped. :teach:
MarkB 01-29-06, 01:35 PM	Is that true? Is there somewhere in the RAW that supports this? I just got A group of 3 advanced lizardmen C2 with their leader CR4 with levels of fighter completely destroyed single handedly by a lvl 3 monk because of endless trip loops myself. By the rules, an Attack of Opportunity interrupts the action that provokes it, and is resolved first. So the AoO is resolved before the character stands up, and then they stand up. EDIT: Nastynate beat me to it. :)
kinjojones 01-29-06, 07:35 PM	^ thanks for the clarification both fo ya'll
Mock26 01-29-06, 07:45 PM	Put him up against fighters with elongated shields (think Roman shields but slightly longer) and have them plant the base of the shield on the ground. That should give them a bit of a bonus when he tries to trip them. You can also rule that since he has to whip the chain around the shield it might be harder for him to do so. Take care and have a great day.... ciao, john. PS Someone lying on their back should also have absolutely no problems loading and firing a hand crossbow with poisoned bolts! PPS To expand on the idea of putting against someone bigger and stronger, certain "monsters" could simply reach down, grab the chain, and yank it out of the fighter's hands. Problem solved for that encounter. PPPS Have a spell caster animate the chain (it would get a saving throw based on the character using the chain) and have it turn on him. PPPPS: Prone Attack: This often under-utilized feat is the bane of the tripper. A prone foe with this feat suffers no attack penalty while prone, and should they strike the tripper in melee, they can regain their footing as a free action, without provoking an attack of opportunity. Put the group up against a bunch of warriors who all have the Prone Attack and Tumbling feats and the all tumble into combat, land on their backsides, and stay there! You can't trip someone who is already on the ground! :D