Challenging a Warforge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Challenging a Warforge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Taylon
06-25-05, 01:10 AM Without throwing druids at them every game or creatures that blatently do extra damage to a warforge, how does a DM challenge a warforge character in a group without killing off the other characters in the group. The group i am DM'ing for has a warforge with 50+ hit points and a DR of at least 3 or 4, and the wizard in the group has about 17 hit points. First of all, it just seems to me like the warforge is such an overpowered player race and should have a level adjustment. No sleep, immunities, etc. Healing thing is only a minor nusiance that can be fixed with a wizard in the group instead of the traditional cleric.

Every fighter in the group is always using a two hander - to max out dmg on power attacks, and is either a warforge or a shifter so they can take advantage of DR.

Anyone have any ideas on evening out the playing field? The group is just max and min'd to the brim with there characters fitted to do max dmg and to absorb max dmg, with all key stats maxed and all secondary stats minimized. I know i probably did this a little to myself by using the point system given in the DMG, but i know there has to be some interesting encounter ideas challenge the groups beyond the simple tactics of, ok you tank, i heal, and i blast. Which is how it is set up for them now. I am trying to encourage the group to become more flexible and really see the usefulness of all the classes. Because most believe that if you aren't a fighter or a priest you are useless. (because of saves and there unmodified dmg rolls, wizards or sorcs just don't seem to ever beat a fighter wield and two hander and power attacking) And a monk or other classes just don't seem to be able to truly show their usefulness since they aren't doing as much dmg or taking as much hits as the rest of the group. I was wanting to figure out how to show how these classes are useful too.

any ideas?
Retinal Haze
06-25-05, 01:23 AM If you want to change it up a bit, i can think of several encounters that might give your players a new experiance.

Try swarms, There in the monster manual. There great for unconventional encoutners. Immune to most types of physical dmg, they simply move into a characters square and do dmg, as well as some having saving throws that go with them.

Stirges, these little suckers (no pun intended) used in large numbers are a great tool for an encounter or for a npc to use. Have the villain start combat with a large box in his hands, a faint buzzing sound coming from the box. Then have him throw the box near the spellcasters, and as it hits errupts a dozen or so stirges. They tie up the spell casters who are pulling them off eachother, and maybe a dmg monkey goes back to help as well.

Rust monsters, these things can send any fullplate wearer running for cover. They also destroy weapons just as redily. But be sure to roleplay them well. I once had a campaign where the party threw the warriors armor into a corner to keep them busy while they fought the badguy who had released them. The rust monsters went for the easy meal and left the badguy unguarded. hehe

Slimes / oozes. Some have damage on hit effects, that also have a chance of destroying any weapons that attack them. This will make a mage shine above a warrior, and keep the hth specialists in the back hoping the ooze doesnt hit their armor with a tentacle and dissolve it. This also bypasses an ac monkey if you have one.

And if all else fails, roll up some npc villains and square off :)
Thinker89
06-25-05, 01:39 AM Since it appears that your party has no rogue throw some traps in there and get as creative as you want. Wear down their HP so they are a more even fight for upcoming creatures.
Count Arioch the 28th
06-25-05, 08:41 AM Without throwing druids at them every game or creatures that blatently do extra damage to a warforge, how does a DM challenge a warforge character in a group without killing off the other characters in the group. The group i am DM'ing for has a warforge with 50+ hit points and a DR of at least 3 or 4, and the wizard in the group has about 17 hit points. First of all, it just seems to me like the warforge is such an overpowered player race and should have a level adjustment. No sleep, immunities, etc. Healing thing is only a minor nusiance that can be fixed with a wizard in the group instead of the traditional cleric.

The warforged are balanced by the fact they have a net -2 ability modifier and the fact they have a 5% ASF that they can't shake ever.
DonGnocci
06-25-05, 09:41 AM What is a "warforged" one?
Can someone help me out?
createvmind
06-25-05, 09:43 AM I/m confused by what you mean challenge? The pasty as a whole should face a challenge that requires all the skills of everyone in the party. You shouldn't focus on how to defeat or challenge one char juat cause his char is of some type that makes it maybe more durable than others or harder to hit like monks.

Terrain is one of the best equalizers in this game as well as natural hazards, things that require reflex saves, etc. I personally use the enviromental books like frostburn and sandstorm and books that give certain encounter charts to roll my monsters. Whatever monster I get I use to the fullest, aerial creatures will be beyond your warforged ability at the moment and he will feel a sense of helplessness. If you have NPC's then they should be intelligent enough to fight what appears to them like a construct at ranged distance whenever possible. Trip attacks, entangling or movement restrictive attacks , the list is endless just use your imagination and play out different scenario's in your head or on paper. I usually write up like 5 rounds of tatics for npc/ monster w intelligence or tatics to give myself several options depending on what may happen.
createvmind
06-25-05, 09:49 AM Also the Pcs in your group should know their roles, if the wizard is putting himself in melee range or engaging in dumb tatics he deserves what he gets. Most Npc and many monsters know to seek out mages anyway so the party should have developed tatics to protect spellcasters because as a DM you should always have enemies trying to get to, shoot, do whatever to keep spellcasters from casting. If Pcs dont learn then mage should be running or dying often, if you have gung ho melee'rs leaving teammates unprotected, then exploit it, makes you a better DM and eventually they will be better players or constantly making new characters.
Nom
06-25-05, 10:30 AM How is a warforged that much different to a half-orc in this respect?

Frankly, DR 3 or 4/adamantine isn't that exciting once you're past the first few levels. It will gain you a few extra hp, but you should generally be fighting opponents whose average damage is above 10 or who use magic (which DR won't protect against).

Most importantly, vary your attack forms. When was the last time your warforged made a Will save? Or a Ref save? Admittedly, their construct nature makes them immune to spells that target "humanoids", but there are plenty of others. And clerics and fighters alike dislike energy and area attacks.

Alternatively, play up the WF weaknesses. You can't enlarge person a warforged, but it works wonderfully on an enemy orc barbarian.

Finally, realise that a spellcaster dealing direct damage probably isn't playing to their potential. How well do your PCs handle grease (a 1st level spell). With their Ref saves, I imagine not well. Or try ray of enfeeblement on those "beefy" fighters.

If melee powerhouses worry you, don't engage in melee. A few elite kobolds or goblins with bows can put a melee heavy party to shame.

Cleric vs wizard is perhaps a concern. However, clerics tend to be a little shortchanged on the direct damage spells and also don't have access to useful spells like haste.
Ibbins
06-25-05, 11:17 AM The warforged are balanced by the fact they have a net -2 ability modifier and the fact they have a 5% ASF that they can't shake ever.

That just leads to them being exploited more as a one-sided killing machine, which they happen to be rather good at.
deadDMwalking
06-25-05, 11:22 AM The next combat encounter could feature a "sundering" opponent.

In fact, a fun tag team would be a beefy melee build that sunders weapons (or a disarmer, who takes them and wields them).

Add in a partner for a quick escape and the party will be gunning for them quickly. It will allow the casters a chance to shine (dimensional anchor) to keep the opponent from escaping, and challenge your 2-handed weapon melee characters.
Liwmial
06-25-05, 11:26 AM All it takes is the touch of one with the mark of (un)making and a warforged crumbles to pieces; perhaps a jaded member of House Cannith? As for shifters ... maybe going head to head with some true lycanthropes will put them in their place.
Nuntius128
06-25-05, 02:11 PM All it takes is the touch of one with the mark of (un)making and a warforged crumbles to pieces; perhaps a jaded member of House Cannith? As for shifters ... maybe going head to head with some true lycanthropes will put them in their place.

Heck, any Artificer, really.
MageofMyth
06-25-05, 09:28 PM What is a "warforged" one?
Can someone help me out?

They are a new race available in the Eberron Campaign book, and I think in the last monster's manual. They are a type of construct that is living and freewilled. They are imune to lots of things and don't need to sleep, can be repaired (healed) with a skill check, and can spend a feat at first level to have the equivelent of Animantium armor.

Quite a few people believe that they should have a level adjustment, quite a few people believe that they are fine as written. Because of their imunities they are IMHO hard to DM for in low level parties, but equal out at higher levels.
SwitchUK
06-25-05, 09:39 PM Yep, MMIII contains warforged rules as well. I was browsing both the Eberron and MMIII books (among others) at the store today...

Just a thought, but being largely metallic constructs, I'd have thought that rust monsters would be a warforged's worst nightmare. The same goes for the spell "rusting grasp".
Kintaran
06-25-05, 09:59 PM Another thing about warforged, as singleminded killing machines, they cannot wear discovered armor. Especially if they have Adamantine body. This can be irritating if you just got yourself enchanted to +1, and stumble across, say, +2 plate. I believe that the warforged are perfectly balanced in the Eberron setting, due to the presence of the noted Mark and Artificers, and in a generic setting, well, given that they are rather-ECS specific, it is easy to ban them, since it is easy to argue that no faction in the given world had both the need and the resources to craft them. Of course, they suck in social situations, and townsfolk that have never heard of warforged are going to pretty damned scared of them. Book of Iron Might, put out by Malhavoc Press, has a similar race in it, and an interesting discussion on how people will react to a clearly artificial adventurer.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Taylon 06-25-05, 01:10 AM	Without throwing druids at them every game or creatures that blatently do extra damage to a warforge, how does a DM challenge a warforge character in a group without killing off the other characters in the group. The group i am DM'ing for has a warforge with 50+ hit points and a DR of at least 3 or 4, and the wizard in the group has about 17 hit points. First of all, it just seems to me like the warforge is such an overpowered player race and should have a level adjustment. No sleep, immunities, etc. Healing thing is only a minor nusiance that can be fixed with a wizard in the group instead of the traditional cleric. Every fighter in the group is always using a two hander - to max out dmg on power attacks, and is either a warforge or a shifter so they can take advantage of DR. Anyone have any ideas on evening out the playing field? The group is just max and min'd to the brim with there characters fitted to do max dmg and to absorb max dmg, with all key stats maxed and all secondary stats minimized. I know i probably did this a little to myself by using the point system given in the DMG, but i know there has to be some interesting encounter ideas challenge the groups beyond the simple tactics of, ok you tank, i heal, and i blast. Which is how it is set up for them now. I am trying to encourage the group to become more flexible and really see the usefulness of all the classes. Because most believe that if you aren't a fighter or a priest you are useless. (because of saves and there unmodified dmg rolls, wizards or sorcs just don't seem to ever beat a fighter wield and two hander and power attacking) And a monk or other classes just don't seem to be able to truly show their usefulness since they aren't doing as much dmg or taking as much hits as the rest of the group. I was wanting to figure out how to show how these classes are useful too. any ideas?
Retinal Haze 06-25-05, 01:23 AM	If you want to change it up a bit, i can think of several encounters that might give your players a new experiance. Try swarms, There in the monster manual. There great for unconventional encoutners. Immune to most types of physical dmg, they simply move into a characters square and do dmg, as well as some having saving throws that go with them. Stirges, these little suckers (no pun intended) used in large numbers are a great tool for an encounter or for a npc to use. Have the villain start combat with a large box in his hands, a faint buzzing sound coming from the box. Then have him throw the box near the spellcasters, and as it hits errupts a dozen or so stirges. They tie up the spell casters who are pulling them off eachother, and maybe a dmg monkey goes back to help as well. Rust monsters, these things can send any fullplate wearer running for cover. They also destroy weapons just as redily. But be sure to roleplay them well. I once had a campaign where the party threw the warriors armor into a corner to keep them busy while they fought the badguy who had released them. The rust monsters went for the easy meal and left the badguy unguarded. hehe Slimes / oozes. Some have damage on hit effects, that also have a chance of destroying any weapons that attack them. This will make a mage shine above a warrior, and keep the hth specialists in the back hoping the ooze doesnt hit their armor with a tentacle and dissolve it. This also bypasses an ac monkey if you have one. And if all else fails, roll up some npc villains and square off :)
Thinker89 06-25-05, 01:39 AM	Since it appears that your party has no rogue throw some traps in there and get as creative as you want. Wear down their HP so they are a more even fight for upcoming creatures.
Count Arioch the 28th 06-25-05, 08:41 AM	Without throwing druids at them every game or creatures that blatently do extra damage to a warforge, how does a DM challenge a warforge character in a group without killing off the other characters in the group. The group i am DM'ing for has a warforge with 50+ hit points and a DR of at least 3 or 4, and the wizard in the group has about 17 hit points. First of all, it just seems to me like the warforge is such an overpowered player race and should have a level adjustment. No sleep, immunities, etc. Healing thing is only a minor nusiance that can be fixed with a wizard in the group instead of the traditional cleric. The warforged are balanced by the fact they have a net -2 ability modifier and the fact they have a 5% ASF that they can't shake ever.
DonGnocci 06-25-05, 09:41 AM	What is a "warforged" one? Can someone help me out?
createvmind 06-25-05, 09:43 AM	I/m confused by what you mean challenge? The pasty as a whole should face a challenge that requires all the skills of everyone in the party. You shouldn't focus on how to defeat or challenge one char juat cause his char is of some type that makes it maybe more durable than others or harder to hit like monks. Terrain is one of the best equalizers in this game as well as natural hazards, things that require reflex saves, etc. I personally use the enviromental books like frostburn and sandstorm and books that give certain encounter charts to roll my monsters. Whatever monster I get I use to the fullest, aerial creatures will be beyond your warforged ability at the moment and he will feel a sense of helplessness. If you have NPC's then they should be intelligent enough to fight what appears to them like a construct at ranged distance whenever possible. Trip attacks, entangling or movement restrictive attacks , the list is endless just use your imagination and play out different scenario's in your head or on paper. I usually write up like 5 rounds of tatics for npc/ monster w intelligence or tatics to give myself several options depending on what may happen.
createvmind 06-25-05, 09:49 AM	Also the Pcs in your group should know their roles, if the wizard is putting himself in melee range or engaging in dumb tatics he deserves what he gets. Most Npc and many monsters know to seek out mages anyway so the party should have developed tatics to protect spellcasters because as a DM you should always have enemies trying to get to, shoot, do whatever to keep spellcasters from casting. If Pcs dont learn then mage should be running or dying often, if you have gung ho melee'rs leaving teammates unprotected, then exploit it, makes you a better DM and eventually they will be better players or constantly making new characters.
Nom 06-25-05, 10:30 AM	How is a warforged that much different to a half-orc in this respect? Frankly, DR 3 or 4/adamantine isn't that exciting once you're past the first few levels. It will gain you a few extra hp, but you should generally be fighting opponents whose average damage is above 10 or who use magic (which DR won't protect against). Most importantly, vary your attack forms. When was the last time your warforged made a Will save? Or a Ref save? Admittedly, their construct nature makes them immune to spells that target "humanoids", but there are plenty of others. And clerics and fighters alike dislike energy and area attacks. Alternatively, play up the WF weaknesses. You can't enlarge person a warforged, but it works wonderfully on an enemy orc barbarian. Finally, realise that a spellcaster dealing direct damage probably isn't playing to their potential. How well do your PCs handle grease (a 1st level spell). With their Ref saves, I imagine not well. Or try ray of enfeeblement on those "beefy" fighters. If melee powerhouses worry you, don't engage in melee. A few elite kobolds or goblins with bows can put a melee heavy party to shame. Cleric vs wizard is perhaps a concern. However, clerics tend to be a little shortchanged on the direct damage spells and also don't have access to useful spells like haste.
Ibbins 06-25-05, 11:17 AM	The warforged are balanced by the fact they have a net -2 ability modifier and the fact they have a 5% ASF that they can't shake ever. That just leads to them being exploited more as a one-sided killing machine, which they happen to be rather good at.
deadDMwalking 06-25-05, 11:22 AM	The next combat encounter could feature a "sundering" opponent. In fact, a fun tag team would be a beefy melee build that sunders weapons (or a disarmer, who takes them and wields them). Add in a partner for a quick escape and the party will be gunning for them quickly. It will allow the casters a chance to shine (dimensional anchor) to keep the opponent from escaping, and challenge your 2-handed weapon melee characters.
Liwmial 06-25-05, 11:26 AM	All it takes is the touch of one with the mark of (un)making and a warforged crumbles to pieces; perhaps a jaded member of House Cannith? As for shifters ... maybe going head to head with some true lycanthropes will put them in their place.
Nuntius128 06-25-05, 02:11 PM	All it takes is the touch of one with the mark of (un)making and a warforged crumbles to pieces; perhaps a jaded member of House Cannith? As for shifters ... maybe going head to head with some true lycanthropes will put them in their place. Heck, any Artificer, really.
MageofMyth 06-25-05, 09:28 PM	What is a "warforged" one? Can someone help me out? They are a new race available in the Eberron Campaign book, and I think in the last monster's manual. They are a type of construct that is living and freewilled. They are imune to lots of things and don't need to sleep, can be repaired (healed) with a skill check, and can spend a feat at first level to have the equivelent of Animantium armor. Quite a few people believe that they should have a level adjustment, quite a few people believe that they are fine as written. Because of their imunities they are IMHO hard to DM for in low level parties, but equal out at higher levels.
SwitchUK 06-25-05, 09:39 PM	Yep, MMIII contains warforged rules as well. I was browsing both the Eberron and MMIII books (among others) at the store today... Just a thought, but being largely metallic constructs, I'd have thought that rust monsters would be a warforged's worst nightmare. The same goes for the spell "rusting grasp".
Kintaran 06-25-05, 09:59 PM	Another thing about warforged, as singleminded killing machines, they cannot wear discovered armor. Especially if they have Adamantine body. This can be irritating if you just got yourself enchanted to +1, and stumble across, say, +2 plate. I believe that the warforged are perfectly balanced in the Eberron setting, due to the presence of the noted Mark and Artificers, and in a generic setting, well, given that they are rather-ECS specific, it is easy to ban them, since it is easy to argue that no faction in the given world had both the need and the resources to craft them. Of course, they suck in social situations, and townsfolk that have never heard of warforged are going to pretty damned scared of them. Book of Iron Might, put out by Malhavoc Press, has a similar race in it, and an interesting discussion on how people will react to a clearly artificial adventurer.