Challenging Gestalt Characters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Challenging Gestalt Characters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Hammith
04-08-07, 12:05 PM I've recently began designing an Eberron based campaign for 3 PCs, and in order to keep some amount of class diversity I decided to allow for gestalt. Another reason for allowing the variant is due to the large amount of high-powered campaigns that preceded this one, which is 28 point-buy.

I fully have the ideas for the campaign mapped out, but was wondering if anyone had a good amount of experience with gestalt and could give me a good idea for determining proper ECLs to put against the players. I'd like this to be a nice memorable campaign with a few character deaths as possible, but still provide a good challenge with the gestalt.

The players have already made there characters, all first level with the following classes/races:

Barbarian/Rogue Warforged
Wizard/Warblade Human (Silverbrow)
Paladin/Incarnate Human (The soul-touched ones from Magic of Incarnum)

Thanks,
Hammith
snakebliskan
04-08-07, 12:21 PM I've recently began designing an Eberron based campaign for 3 PCs, and in order to keep some amount of class diversity I decided to allow for gestalt. Another reason for allowing the variant is due to the large amount of high-powered campaigns that preceded this one, which is 28 point-buy.

I fully have the ideas for the campaign mapped out, but was wondering if anyone had a good amount of experience with gestalt and could give me a good idea for determining proper ECLs to put against the players. I'd like this to be a nice memorable campaign with a few character deaths as possible, but still provide a good challenge with the gestalt.

The players have already made there characters, all first level with the following classes/races:

Barbarian/Rogue Warforged
Wizard/Warblade Human (Silverbrow)
Paladin/Incarnate Human (The soul-touched ones from Magic of Incarnum)

Thanks,
Hammith

For a 3 pc party I would set the CR at there lvl because most CR's are set for a party of 6 PC's of that lvl. I would also give them 1/3 xp per encounter as if you gave xp to a party of 6 slows down power lvl of game and fits eberron better.
Cricket_God
04-08-07, 12:36 PM For a 3 pc party I would set the CR at there lvl because most CR's are set for a party of 6 PC's of that lvl. I would also give them 1/3 xp per encounter as if you gave xp to a party of 6 slows down power lvl of game and fits eberron better.

Umm. I like your advice, but CRs are set for a party of 4 PCs of that level, unless this is some kind of strange eberon thing.
olshanski_home
04-08-07, 12:57 PM Not only that, but CR is set for 4 PCs of 25 point buy.
With Gestalt characters, you'd be fine with CR as-is though. I'd consider your characters to be LA+1 for purposes of calculating experience.
LeuktheSavior
04-08-07, 01:11 PM I always pit my players in a gestalt campaign against creatures 3 CR above their level. they'll survive the encounter if they're smart about it, and with three players they should have no problems, so long as they have some healing potential.
TwiddleStootch
04-08-07, 01:25 PM I am currently running a Gestalt campaign for 2 PCs (Cleric/Fighter and Wizard/Archivist, but that's not important).

Here is what I have worked out for them:

1st) I calculate their ECL as if they had a +1 LA, for figuring the proper CRs

2nd) Even with those CRs, I find 4 encounters a day is not enough.
I find they can handle 2-3 more, depending.

They are currently only Lv 3, so they may be able to hand as many as 7 or 8 a day later on, but I don't know yet.

But really, It depends on the party.
for example, with mine, they have a huge amount of healing spells, so I need to have them fight alot of stuff to get the tanks HP down, cause they jsut heal up after each fight.
NoldorForce
04-08-07, 01:28 PM The text on gestalt itself recommends considering encounters to be a point of CR less than normal when used on gestalt characters, or two points lower if that encounter relies on failed saves.

It's best to indicate the gestalt division with a double slash rather than a single slash (thus the first character is a Barbarian//Rogue). This serves to distinguish the style from multiclassing, which uses the single slash to delineate varying classes.
Krusk
04-08-07, 01:51 PM The intention of gestalt -as far as i can tell- is to help out the power level of partys of 1, 2 and 3 people in being equal to that of a 4 person party. I would use the Cr system as is.

I would also gestalt any enemy important npc's to keep things even.
HagerHobbit
04-09-07, 05:47 PM Yeah...any NPC that is important enough to spend Action Points is important enough to Gestalt.

And you should have a template for Gestalt to make calculations easy.

Like... Everyone is Gestalt Rogue. (Meaning no improvement to BAB in most cases, and no improvement to saves besides reflex)

They all get SA dice, and Evasion.

As far as calculating XP, in my campaign that is also 3 Characters all Gestalt, if the battle was a bit rough... I'll give them regular XP or as though the level of the encounter was 1 higher. If it's really easy... I'll drop it 2 to three levels.

Gestalt can't be a fixed equation...it's different based on the situation.

Challenging Combats can be anywhere from 3 LA below the party all the way to 5 LA above. If you drop something on them they can't handle...have it die when they're getting really low...drop the CR about 2-3 notches and give them XP as normal.

They'll have a sense of accomplishment and you'll know that creature was a bit tough.

Most Gestalt campaigns you'll need to max out are the NPC and Monsters HPS and maybe give them +1 to all saves, hitroll and AC.
danielinthewolvesden
04-09-07, 08:26 PM It's strange- another party, here with six classes, and powergamed- BUT despite all the steermanure about "CoDzilla" not a single level of Cleric or Druid in the bunch!:P

I would say that's still around a normal ECL party, as the 3 players balance out the Gestalt. With no healing they are going to get whupped anyway.:P
Icewraith
04-09-07, 09:24 PM You should probably calculate them as ECL +1 anyway, just because they're going to level insanely fast with three players and Gestalt.

If you're looking to make encounters more difficult, don't add levels, add monsters. If it's a big strong monster give him goons, if it's a few less strong monsters add a few more.

Also, make sure you follow the wealth-by-level guidelines, the challenge will drain from your game quickly if you have gestalt with higher point buy AND high wealth.
Cifer
04-09-07, 09:31 PM Since they're three players, I'd advise just treating them as a standard party of four.

I always pit my players in a gestalt campaign against creatures 3 CR above their level. they'll survive the encounter if they're smart about it, and with three players they should have no problems, so long as they have some healing potential.
I wouldn't recommend that. 3 CRs often mean one-hit-kills either by damage (not so much of a problem, though a troll encountered at level 2 would IMO still spell doom for the party) or by save-or-sorries.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hammith 04-08-07, 12:05 PM	I've recently began designing an Eberron based campaign for 3 PCs, and in order to keep some amount of class diversity I decided to allow for gestalt. Another reason for allowing the variant is due to the large amount of high-powered campaigns that preceded this one, which is 28 point-buy. I fully have the ideas for the campaign mapped out, but was wondering if anyone had a good amount of experience with gestalt and could give me a good idea for determining proper ECLs to put against the players. I'd like this to be a nice memorable campaign with a few character deaths as possible, but still provide a good challenge with the gestalt. The players have already made there characters, all first level with the following classes/races: Barbarian/Rogue Warforged Wizard/Warblade Human (Silverbrow) Paladin/Incarnate Human (The soul-touched ones from Magic of Incarnum) Thanks, Hammith
snakebliskan 04-08-07, 12:21 PM	I've recently began designing an Eberron based campaign for 3 PCs, and in order to keep some amount of class diversity I decided to allow for gestalt. Another reason for allowing the variant is due to the large amount of high-powered campaigns that preceded this one, which is 28 point-buy. I fully have the ideas for the campaign mapped out, but was wondering if anyone had a good amount of experience with gestalt and could give me a good idea for determining proper ECLs to put against the players. I'd like this to be a nice memorable campaign with a few character deaths as possible, but still provide a good challenge with the gestalt. The players have already made there characters, all first level with the following classes/races: Barbarian/Rogue Warforged Wizard/Warblade Human (Silverbrow) Paladin/Incarnate Human (The soul-touched ones from Magic of Incarnum) Thanks, Hammith For a 3 pc party I would set the CR at there lvl because most CR's are set for a party of 6 PC's of that lvl. I would also give them 1/3 xp per encounter as if you gave xp to a party of 6 slows down power lvl of game and fits eberron better.
Cricket_God 04-08-07, 12:36 PM	For a 3 pc party I would set the CR at there lvl because most CR's are set for a party of 6 PC's of that lvl. I would also give them 1/3 xp per encounter as if you gave xp to a party of 6 slows down power lvl of game and fits eberron better. Umm. I like your advice, but CRs are set for a party of 4 PCs of that level, unless this is some kind of strange eberon thing.
olshanski_home 04-08-07, 12:57 PM	Not only that, but CR is set for 4 PCs of 25 point buy. With Gestalt characters, you'd be fine with CR as-is though. I'd consider your characters to be LA+1 for purposes of calculating experience.
LeuktheSavior 04-08-07, 01:11 PM	I always pit my players in a gestalt campaign against creatures 3 CR above their level. they'll survive the encounter if they're smart about it, and with three players they should have no problems, so long as they have some healing potential.
TwiddleStootch 04-08-07, 01:25 PM	I am currently running a Gestalt campaign for 2 PCs (Cleric/Fighter and Wizard/Archivist, but that's not important). Here is what I have worked out for them: 1st) I calculate their ECL as if they had a +1 LA, for figuring the proper CRs 2nd) Even with those CRs, I find 4 encounters a day is not enough. I find they can handle 2-3 more, depending. They are currently only Lv 3, so they may be able to hand as many as 7 or 8 a day later on, but I don't know yet. But really, It depends on the party. for example, with mine, they have a huge amount of healing spells, so I need to have them fight alot of stuff to get the tanks HP down, cause they jsut heal up after each fight.
NoldorForce 04-08-07, 01:28 PM	The text on gestalt itself recommends considering encounters to be a point of CR less than normal when used on gestalt characters, or two points lower if that encounter relies on failed saves. It's best to indicate the gestalt division with a double slash rather than a single slash (thus the first character is a Barbarian//Rogue). This serves to distinguish the style from multiclassing, which uses the single slash to delineate varying classes.
Krusk 04-08-07, 01:51 PM	The intention of gestalt -as far as i can tell- is to help out the power level of partys of 1, 2 and 3 people in being equal to that of a 4 person party. I would use the Cr system as is. I would also gestalt any enemy important npc's to keep things even.
HagerHobbit 04-09-07, 05:47 PM	Yeah...any NPC that is important enough to spend Action Points is important enough to Gestalt. And you should have a template for Gestalt to make calculations easy. Like... Everyone is Gestalt Rogue. (Meaning no improvement to BAB in most cases, and no improvement to saves besides reflex) They all get SA dice, and Evasion. As far as calculating XP, in my campaign that is also 3 Characters all Gestalt, if the battle was a bit rough... I'll give them regular XP or as though the level of the encounter was 1 higher. If it's really easy... I'll drop it 2 to three levels. Gestalt can't be a fixed equation...it's different based on the situation. Challenging Combats can be anywhere from 3 LA below the party all the way to 5 LA above. If you drop something on them they can't handle...have it die when they're getting really low...drop the CR about 2-3 notches and give them XP as normal. They'll have a sense of accomplishment and you'll know that creature was a bit tough. Most Gestalt campaigns you'll need to max out are the NPC and Monsters HPS and maybe give them +1 to all saves, hitroll and AC.
danielinthewolvesden 04-09-07, 08:26 PM	It's strange- another party, here with six classes, and powergamed- BUT despite all the steermanure about "CoDzilla" not a single level of Cleric or Druid in the bunch!:P I would say that's still around a normal ECL party, as the 3 players balance out the Gestalt. With no healing they are going to get whupped anyway.:P
Icewraith 04-09-07, 09:24 PM	You should probably calculate them as ECL +1 anyway, just because they're going to level insanely fast with three players and Gestalt. If you're looking to make encounters more difficult, don't add levels, add monsters. If it's a big strong monster give him goons, if it's a few less strong monsters add a few more. Also, make sure you follow the wealth-by-level guidelines, the challenge will drain from your game quickly if you have gestalt with higher point buy AND high wealth.
Cifer 04-09-07, 09:31 PM	Since they're three players, I'd advise just treating them as a standard party of four. I always pit my players in a gestalt campaign against creatures 3 CR above their level. they'll survive the encounter if they're smart about it, and with three players they should have no problems, so long as they have some healing potential. I wouldn't recommend that. 3 CRs often mean one-hit-kills either by damage (not so much of a problem, though a troll encountered at level 2 would IMO still spell doom for the party) or by save-or-sorries.