Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MasonMurdoc 05-15-07, 02:58 PM	I'm gonna be starting my campaign (hopefully) and I decided to try out Gestalt classes. I have seven players. So I was wondering, what would A good encounter level be for these guys? I'll add their choice of classes as I find out 1. Fighter/Rogue 2. Binder/Sorcorer 3. Ranger/Druid 4. <Gone> 5. Ranger/Bard 6. <Gone> 7. Cleric/Druid I'm not sure which of 5 and 7 I'll lose. Probably 5 because he's often late.
Frugal 05-15-07, 03:04 PM	I'm gonna be starting my campaign (hopefully) and I decided to try out Gestalt classes. I have seven players. So I was wondering, what would A good encounter level be for these guys? Gestalt is primarily designed for small parties (less than 4) so that the party can still cover most of the basic rules. There's enough challenges sometimes with balancing things for 7 normal players, I wouldn't recommend gestalt for such a large group, but then again I'm really not a fan of gestalt in general.
TwiddleStootch 05-15-07, 03:09 PM	I agree with Frugal. Gestalt is for small groups, 1-3 characters. I find it can be difficult to wear out a party of two gestalt characters, thanks to their great number of spells, so a party of 7 would be crazy. And you would be bound to have a lot of overlapping abilities: "Ok, I'll disable the trap" "NO! I will!" "No way! I'm gonna do it!" note- however, I do like gestalt. I find it opens up a lot of fun ideas. I just wouldn't use it with more then 3 players, 4 as a absolute max.
Sunic_Flames 05-15-07, 03:10 PM	Gestalt is primarily designed for small parties (less than 4) so that the party can still cover most of the basic rules. There's enough challenges sometimes with balancing things for 7 normal players, I wouldn't recommend gestalt for such a large group, but then again I'm really not a fan of gestalt in general. Pretty much. If it were 2-3 you could just treat em as a normal 4 character group for the most part, but 7? You're looking at something like... EL +3-4, which means either a lot of opponents or a lot of power in the opponents, often both. Which makes play slow to a crawl and/or cause a lot of quick deaths.
MasonMurdoc 05-15-07, 03:21 PM	6 Warriors would be EL 3 would it not? That isn't likely to kill them outright is it?
Kuronue 05-15-07, 03:26 PM	6 Warriors would be EL 3 would it not? That isn't likely to kill them outright is it? not EL3, EL +3. As in, 3 higher than normal. As in, at least EL 4 for a level 1 party
CCS 05-15-07, 04:00 PM	1st, I'd disregard all the nay-sayers around here when they tell you not to do something. It's a GAME. So if you & your players decide that it may be fun to try xxxx, then try xxxx. It might turn out that it doesn't work as well as you'd hoped. Or it might work fantastically for you & yours. Heck, it could even work poorly but still be alot of fun. 2nd, It's really hard to give advice on limited info. All we know is that you've got 7 gestalts involved. Gestalt-whats though? The exact mix is really important. As is the experience levels of the players themselves. For example; I'm in a 4 - 5 (when #5 can make it) person gestalt game myself. We consist of 2 vetern players, & 2 fairly experienced players. #5 is a vetern as well - but maybe he's there/maybe he's not. So I didn't count him. Anyways we mostly built our characters based upon RP 1st, optimization definitly 2nd. Going into last weeks game we were all 4th lv.and #5 couldn't make it. So what happend? We got our asses kicked by a grizzley bear. Not a dire bear, not a were-bear, just 1 normal grizzley. At the end of the fight our sorceror/barbarian was unconcious in the deep negatives, the ranger & bard were battered, and the dwarf was dead. This sorry showing was 50% bad dice for us/great dice for the bear and 50% due to the characters involved. So, before you try and determine what to throw at this 7 person party of gestalts, find out exactly what they're making.
MasonMurdoc 05-15-07, 04:33 PM	I'm not sure as of yet but I'll add them as I find out All of us have only played a year so don't have LOADS of experiance Some don't get the roll/role playing thing yet 1: This guy reads the core books front to back every now and then. He sai he's either going be a Cleric/Monk or Ranger/Druid 2: Second most compitant wants to be a Binder but isn't sure what he's going to add to that. 3: Understands the rules unless they involve his character: Fighter/Rogue 4: Plays World of warcraft to much and uses WoW terms alot. I think he wants to be a Wizard/Sorcorer focusing on Evokation. 5: He's pretty good RP wise and doesn't hold back for the DM(Blew up an Armoury because the armour shop ripped him off). He wants to be a Ronin but I'm not sure what class combo that would be and neither is he. 6: So quiet he's mysterious. Cleric/something. I'm not sure though. 7: Played 3 years ago. Just started again with our group. Not sure about his character yet. I seriously over complicated that *sigh*
Frugal 05-15-07, 05:14 PM	The only reason I recommended against it is because balancing for a party of 7 can be challenging enough at times, not impossible, just challenging. How well you can do at that will depend on your level of experience. Now the same is true for gestalt, how you balance against that is very different as well and presents new challenges. For instance, the characters are clearly more powerful than others at the same level but you do have to realise that in some ways they are still at the same level as a single classed character. For instance, the casters will likely have more HP (if they mix with a class with a bigger HD) but they'll still only have as many HD as their level (3 HD for a 3rd level character). So I put it to the OP, how familiar are you with running larger groups? How familiar are you with running gestalt. If the answer to both of these is, "not very," then I'd recommend against running a 7 PC gestalt party. Heck, even if the answer to one of those is, "not very," I'd have 2nd thoughts, it would depend on how comfortable you are with DMing in general. That doesn't mean don't give it a shot, sometimes you can learn a lot by stretching yourself, just realise that there will be a lot more challenges.
MasonMurdoc 05-15-07, 05:26 PM	I realise it will be a bit tough. So I'm having them make normal characters as well, in case this doesn't go so well. One of my players has no problems with the high EL. So I'm sure they wnt mind a test game.
Sunic_Flames 05-15-07, 07:22 PM	For the hell of it, I ran a quick test. 7 level 1 characters are considered to have a party level of 1.8, as opposed to 1 for 4 of em. Ok, not so bad. Add an extra enemy or make an enemy a bit stronger, done. However, gestalts are generally considered 1-2 ECLs higher than their normal brethen. Which means if +1, party level 3.6 and if +2, party level 4.6. So you either throw something like... 7-9 level 1 warriors (CR 3.5-4.5) at them, which if played remotely smart (focus attacks on a few targets at a time), will result in characters dying. Constantly. The alternative is one big creature and maybe some minions, like an ogre and 1-3 warriors (same CR). ECL appropriate? I think not, despite what the numbers say.
MasonMurdoc 05-15-07, 08:23 PM	For the hell of it, I ran a quick test. 7 level 1 characters are considered to have a party level of 1.8, as opposed to 1 for 4 of em. Ok, not so bad. Add an extra enemy or make an enemy a bit stronger, done. However, gestalts are generally considered 1-2 ECLs higher than their normal brethen. Which means if +1, party level 3.6 and if +2, party level 4.6. So you either throw something like... 7-9 level 1 warriors (CR 3.5-4.5) at them, which if played remotely smart (focus attacks on a few targets at a time), will result in characters dying. Constantly. The alternative is one big creature and maybe some minions, like an ogre and 1-3 warriors (same CR). ECL appropriate? I think not, despite what the numbers say. I'll have to let the players decide. It's them playing after all. I'll test them out first, then we'll all make a decision after the first session.
danielinthewolvesden 05-15-07, 10:18 PM	I'm gonna be starting my campaign (hopefully) and I decided to try out Gestalt classes. I have seven players. SEVEN? No, no, no, do not do Gestalt. OK, maybe you could let the most experienced player add Healer (yes, the MH Healer) to Fighte or some other less powerful class. But crikies, man. Seven players is a lot, and 4 gestalt is a lot, thus 7 gestalt is crazy.:noway: :nonono: Ok here is what will happen- in order to challenge the GROUP, each encounter will kill one or two PC's, altho the GROUP will win easily. Fun.:allalone:
MasonMurdoc 05-15-07, 10:29 PM	SEVEN? No, no, no, do not do Gestalt. OK, maybe you could let the most experienced player add Healer (yes, the MH Healer) to Fighte or some other less powerful class. But crikies, man. Seven players is a lot, and 4 gestalt is a lot, thus 7 gestalt is crazy.:noway: :nonono: Ok here is what will happen- in order to challenge the GROUP, each encounter will kill one or two PC's, altho the GROUP will win easily. Fun.:allalone: I'll take them through a beefed up version of the Sunless Citadel first, to see if its to much. If they slaughter their enemies while getting slaughtered by them AT THE SAME TIME, I'll have them go back to normal.
TheAngryFish 05-15-07, 10:50 PM	4: Plays World of warcraft to much and uses WoW terms alot. I think he wants to be a Wizard/Sorcorer focusing on Evokation. I play WoW and base most of my characters around the idea "I need to find the best gear so I can be a better killing machine. Mercy? you want MERCY? I"M CHAOTIC NEUTRAL!!!!1" Just kidding... wow is still and awesome game :shifty:
MasonMurdoc 05-15-07, 11:21 PM	I play WoW and base most of my characters around the idea "I need to find the best gear so I can be a better killing machine. Mercy? you want MERCY? I"M CHAOTIC NEUTRAL!!!!1" Just kidding... wow is still and awesome game :shifty: I agree, but he doesn't show as much dedication to a D&D game han he does WoW. Plus, he spends most of his time awake on it. The player who knows rules not related to his character also plays it, and doesn't get terms mixed up....as much
Alyss 05-16-07, 04:55 AM	It says in Unearthed Arcana thar CRs should just be one higher than normal. So, a party of 1st level gestalts get CR2 encounters. However, as your party is huge (I personally hate running parties larger than 5, but if you an manage it then I congratualte you), so having CRs 2 higher is probably a good idea (CR 3 for 1st level). Make sure to follow the guidelines in the DMs guide that discuss the spread of CRs throughout an adventure. It's very helpful
pinkbunny 05-16-07, 05:02 AM	yep, you've got almost twice as many players, which is a CR+2 gestalt says +1 is appropriate thus, I'd go with CR+2 or +3, the CR+2 should be good at lower levels, as they're likely to die quickly to CR4 things at 1st level
Frugal 05-16-07, 09:15 AM	I'd definitely be inclined to go for more lower CR creatures than fewer higher CR creatures (general good guideline for dealing with larger parties). But, you have to be careful to balance numbers, if the party is routinely outnumbered then that can really increase the deadliness. For instance, just with 7 1st level PCs who aren't gestalt you'd need 7 1st level Kobold warriors to get a challenging encounter (EL 2 vs. avg. party level of 1.8). Now add gestalt, even if you go by the +1 EL you're looking at 10 kobolds (EL 3), if you figure +2 EL then you need 14 (EL 4), that's really getting a little crazy. Now you could get around that a bit by making them 2nd level Kobold warriors, now they're CR 1/2 so you could get EL 3 with just 5, or EL 4 needs 7. So you have to be willing to ask which is more challenging, outnumbering the party or facing close to even odds but tougher opponents?
MasonMurdoc 05-16-07, 11:14 AM	I'd say lesser slightly tougher opponents would be best. I could have a few 2nd level and a few 1st level to make things more intrestting
rogar2465 05-16-07, 12:48 PM	I'm curently running a 3pc 1DMpc gestalt campain. human fighter/ranger dwarf fighter/barbarian elf rogue/sorcerer and human paladin/cleric EL is working out to be the same as moduals, wheras 6 PCs it's usually one Higher. Rogar
danielinthewolvesden 05-16-07, 03:08 PM	I'm curently running a 3pc 1DMpc gestalt campain. human fighter/ranger dwarf fighter/barbarian elf rogue/sorcerer and human paladin/cleric EL is working out to be the same as moduals, wheras 6 PCs it's usually one Higher. Rogar You know, one of the advantages of Gestalt is that hopefully the players in a 3 PC group can cover all 4 roles and thus no need for a NPC or a DMPC. However, this is one of the least optimized Gestalt groups I have ever seen- Fighter/ranger? Fighter/Barbarian? The whole idea is for each player (in a small group) to take two roles for his gestalt (the 4 roles being arcanist, warrior, skill-monkey & heal-bot). Here is an idealized 3 PC group: Sorc/Cleric Barb/Rogue Fighter/Favoured soul Note two healers. We could also have: Warmage/Fighter Beguiler/bard Cleric/hexblade? Again, note two healers. And Warmage with Beguiler covers a lot of spellcasting ground.
Frugal 05-16-07, 03:34 PM	Yeah that example gestalt party is really unoptimised fighter/barbarian gains what? A few feats, that's it. Usually you want to either combine one or more role or optimise the strengths and minimise the weaknesses of the classes. For instance, getting full BAB and better HD for a caster makes a great gish type character. Or throwing in fighter/rogue or barbarian/rogue gives you sneak attack in melee but gives you some better saves (Fort and Ref are both good now, only Will is poor) and helps create the skilful fighter concept due to all the extra rogue skill points. Some other combos that come to mind; Cleric/Wizard or Cleric/Sorcerer (Mystic Theurge without the PrC) Fighter/Wizard or Fighter/Sorcerer (Eldrich Knight that doesn't suck) any meleeist/Rogue (full BAB + sneak attack = ouch) any meleeist/Scout (full BAB + skirmish = ouch) etc, etc, etc. The thing is, I don't even see fighter/barbarian as helping with a character concept either, which is the other goal for doing gestalt.
Sunic_Flames 05-16-07, 03:51 PM	I think a more accurate example would be: ECL 1 party: Challenged by a pair of level 1 human warriors who among other things would use cover if available, focus attacks on the same target, wear them down with ranged attacks first... 7 level 1 gestalts: As above, but 7 instead of 2. So even assuming the extremely not optimized shortsword light shield leather armor javelin setup you're looking at AC 14 (16 with cover), +2 to hit and 1d6+1 damage. In the first case one should hit a round, and the fight will likely last 2 rounds so the worst that would happen is one character drops to negatives. (and is then magically or mundanely healed to become stable if not upright, most likely the latter unless the group has no healer. Easy fight, can handle 4 in a day without significant risk. With 7... 3 attacks 1 and 4 the other? That's now 2 of em taking an average of 9 damage a round, and it will likely last longer than 2 rounds. Meaning, 1-2 characters drop every 1-2 rounds. Still roughly equal ECL but note the significantly higher potential mortality rate.
MasonMurdoc 05-16-07, 04:27 PM	I added a few things to the OP, It's the class choices of my players I don't know all of them and some I might be wrong about.
rogar2465 05-16-07, 05:35 PM	Yea we didn't min/max hardly at all. we went for role play....Ftr/Bar Typical dwarf, (and I miss playing a character, but as DM dont want a spell caster...Ranger with a bunch of extra feats...then the sneaky sorcerer, and the gooddy two shoes religious fanatic pal/cl... whe're havin fun Rogar
MasonMurdoc 05-25-07, 01:19 PM	Just bumping this so I can find it later I'll be finding out what most if not all of the players are planning to be tonight so I'll put them with the others later
Yami 05-25-07, 02:22 PM	We generally have only 3 players, so we've been in a few gestalt games recently. I'm only a player, but I've noticed a couple things with gestalt: Each player as more options. Especially with casters, this can slow down game play. It can starty bickering between characters that can fulfill the same role. Each player has more stamina during the day. Caster have more spells, or options for their actions other than spells. Each player still has only one turn / round. Actions are precious - and losing an action is devestating Upping the CR of encounters through single enemies can be very dangerous - often if the difference is too large, the PCs have no hope of countering their enemies' moves, or saving against effects. Upping the CR of encounters through many enemies can be very dangerous - often the lack of party turns in a round is so low compared to the number of enemy turns, that the enemy has a good chance of overwhelming characters before the party can respond. Our DM has adopted a couple of strategies: Make the monsters more durable, as gestalts are, without giving them high level abilities (gestalt monsters) Give the monster things like 150% hit points to make them difficult, make them last longer, but not give them abilities the party can't counter or mitigate in some manner Players can adopt some strategies too: Summons provide low level support that gives the party more chances to act in a round. Animal companions, buffed familiars, and warrior mounts can help here too. Go defensive as well as offensive. Gestalts can lend themselves to "glass cannon" type builds - but if you give one class over to defensive capabilities and concentrate on staying power, you have more chance of living through those horrible moments when you're mobbed by one million goblins. Our groups only contained 3 gestalts - I don't know how well these things carry over into a large group. Personally I'd think hard about gestalting most monsters, and maybe upping their HP totals - that would provide the added difficulty to the fight without overwhelming the PCs to the point where they're dying every session. Good luck!
MasonMurdoc 05-25-07, 04:44 PM	Ok I've finally gotten round to putting up what they've chosen. I think i will have a few weaker enemies and a few tougher ones. This way I don' have opponents who are to strong, or that are to many. Could that work?
Drew1369r 05-25-07, 05:48 PM	Wiz/Sorc gestault would be the end all of the game >:) but thats just me
danielinthewolvesden 05-25-07, 09:30 PM	With 7 players you can also do a lot to speed things up by: No Companions (bonus feat given) No Leadership No Special Mounts (Bonus feat given) Summoning is limited to one critter at a time- for both sides.
Zurai 05-25-07, 09:47 PM	Wiz/Sorc gestault would be the end all of the game >:) but thats just me Nah. Wizard/Druid is much stronger than Wiz/Sorc. Almost double the average hp, another high save, medium BAB, and that's totally ignoring the class abilities ;) Not to mention minimal spell redundancy. As a side note, we have a Wiz/Druid in the gestalt game I'm in (party is wiz/dru, warblade/ranger, fighter/rogue, and crusader/favored soul - note that the DM actually chose the 2nd class for the first three players; the 4th player has already died, he was originally a soulknife/cleric. The wiz/druid was originally going to multiclass and go arcane heirophant before the DM sprung gestalt on us). He's gonna be reeeeeaaaaaallll scary when he hits 5th and especially 8th level. The one limiting factor to his insane uberness (he rolled 17s for both int and wis!) is that we're playing in a low-magic campaign, so he has very limited access to wizard spells; just the ones he chooses at level up, basically.
MasonMurdoc 06-04-07, 09:58 PM	I've managed to knock it down to 4 players now. So I don't have as big a problem any more. I'll delete the ones I lost.
Kaldric 06-04-07, 10:14 PM	I still want to play a wizard/rogue/fighter/cleric gestalt character, using 4d6 drop the lowest to roll his stats. Would that just be an ECL +3 character? Meh, it's beside the point. There's nothing wrong with doing this. It's a little more work for the DM to balance everything out. A fighter/wizard gestalt is not nearly as powerful as having a fighter and a wizard, so watch for that. It seems to me as though gestalt characters just give a particular player more options on his turn. Does he want to play a fighter or a wizard this round? It offers interesting tradeoffs. How much armor should you wear as a fighter/wizard, if any? How about as a cleric/rogue? As long as the balance issues aren't overwhelming, it should probably be fun.
Drew1369r 06-04-07, 11:00 PM	I was just thinking of a very wicked Gestalt fighter meat shield class... Fighter(bonus feat every 2 levels)/Samuri(bonus feat every three levels) (from oriental adventures) ALL THOSE FEATS... WHOLLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!!
MasonMurdoc 06-04-07, 11:16 PM	I was just thinking of a very wicked Gestalt fighter meat shield class... Fighter(bonus feat every 2 levels)/Samuri(bonus feat every three levels) (from oriental adventures) ALL THOSE FEATS... WHOLLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!! Haha. I'm suddenly quite intrested in Oriental Adventures:D. Though that seems like some that should be banned, but I haven't seen the class its self so cant judge.
zzakk2to2 06-05-07, 06:33 PM	i like gestualt because it allows me to be a half-dragon and still go with my sorcerer levels. thats 6 levels if you add in half-dragon paragon. another thing i like is to add werebear to that. heres how i do it: half-dragon(hd) werebear(wb) sorcerer(s) brown bear(bb) 1.hd wb 2.hd s 3.hd wb 4.wb s 5.s bb 6.s bb 7.s bb 8.s bb 9.s bb 10.s bb the 6th level of brown bear makes it so that the hybrid and bear form are large sized. this means that while in hybrid I have functional dragon wings. there is also a net of +16 to strength and has damage reduction (10/silver) Large (Ex): When a werebear reaches 6th level in the brown bear class, his animal and hybrid forms become Large size. In either of those forms, he takes a -1 penalty to AC and attack rolls because of his size, and his Space/Reach changes to 10 ft./10 ft. His bite damage increases to 2d6 points, and his claw damage increases to 1d8 points. His ability scores change as indicated on Table SP-11. Wings (Ex): At 3rd level, a Large or larger half-dragon grows fully functional wings and may use them to fly at up to twice her land speed (maximum 120 feet) with average maneuverability. A Medium or smaller half-dragon either does not grow wings or grows nonfunctional vestigial ones. All that by level 10. that is 8 sorcer levels. replace the sorcer with fighter and you would have an awsome attacker.