Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ChimericPhase 12-12-05, 04:38 AM	One obvious suggestion for adding the element of surprise to an encounter is to use creative spellcasting (especially high-level spells) to alter or boost enemy capabilities. Another is to make use of new monsters from any of a zillion sources, or create NPCs with new magic items and prestige classes. Another good option is to apply templates from the core books, or the various supplements that Wizards has produced . . . The entire article can be found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20051105a) I know the topic is a little old, but I was browsing thru the archive of Save My Game articles and happened to re-read this one. I found myself disatisfied with the few suggestions presented here because they really didn't solve the problem. What to do about players that know too much? They've read every monster supplement, so how do you keep them on their toes? How do you stop them from realizing that monster they're fighting has 5 hit die an AC of 15 and immunity to fire? A quick recap of the suggestions in the article includes: Use different equipment. Change the feats Use the terrain to your advantage Use tactical thinking Use teamwork It comes down to the fact none of the above suggestions really affect the effectiveness of the player's knowledge. Certainly a different feat or different equipment might throw off a player's knowledge of stats, but the player's knowledge of the basic monster is still well anchored. Tactics might be more challenging and/or more effective against the PCs, but the players knowledge of stats is still effective. Unless you spend a great deal of time, adding templates, character levels, re-working complete stats -- players will still know. Trolls using shocking greatswords, wearing rings of energy resistance(fire) acting as a team using flanking tactics are still trolls and they're still regenerating hitpoints and can still be hurt with acid. Fire will still have small effect on red dragons, and silver will still hurt werewolves. How many of you DMs have heard this one? DM: You turn the corner and see a hulking humanoid. He has small piggish eyes, greyish skin an . . PC1: It's probably an orc, right? DM: Well . . . yes, but your player doesn't know that. You're 1st lvl, you've never seen one! PC1: Yeah, yeah, I know. (aside to PCs 2 & 3) Orcs are easy, its alone, lets just kill it and keep going. Or similar? The fact of the matter is, players are harder to surprise when they know that dog-like humanoid is probably a gnoll, and those pesky reptiles are really kobolds. Even the best players metagame a little and this can happen in any game. So without drawing up whole new monsters, or spending hours re-working monster stats with equipment, feats, or even templates, how can you quickly and easily change a monster to surprise and challenge your players? I present a few simple suggestions to help any DM provide a few new challenges for jaded players: Change the Name PC1: So what are they? DM: The blacksmith says "We call'em Keelar, cuz' that's the sound they make at night. None of use know rightly what they are." PC1: Uhhh . . . right . . . This generally works best if you are using a copy of the stats and not reading directly from the monster book. Even the best non-metagaming players can accidently see the page or glimpse the monster name. Other players might recall the stats by name alone. I say "Medusa" and who doesn't instantly think flesh-to-stone? I say "Syleesar" and no one has a clue. Change the Description PC1: What does it look like? DM: Well, it has large luminous eyes that are dark purple, and crusty reddish skin with patchy black hair all over its body. It glares at you, brandishing a crude sharpened stick. PC2: Ew. I have no idea what that might be. This works well along with the first point. Who would guess the above creature was really just a goblin with a javelin? Oh, they might figure out it's like a goblin, but they'd never know for certain if someone didn't tell them. They would remain suspicious of it, watching for other clues to it's ability - in other words, exactly way a person would act around a creature they've never seen before. Both of the above suggestions require very little work on your part - they could even be done on the spot for random encounters. No change in stats is required as long as no player sees the "true" description or illustration or name of the creature you're using. Using just the two tactics above I once had a group of players fighting an infestation of 'daska' for several hours before any of them realized they were only fighting glorified (but standard MM stat) lizardfolk. Change the Monster in a Small Way DM: You hear a growl and out of the bush steps a snarling two-headed bear-like creature. It rears up on its hind legs and both mouths roar a challenge at you. PC: Whoa! Stepping up a little is actually changing the monster. For instance, the monster above. Actuall stats? Black Bear, plus one additional bite attack. Does it severly affect the stats and/or the CR? No, not really. The key here is a small change that looks significant, but only minorly affects the actual change of stats. Some small changes that could potentially be added to any minor to moderate creature: Extra head (extra bite attack - damage appropriate for monster's size) Extra limbs (one extra claw, slam, or kick attack -- damage appropriate for size) Tentacles (add slam attack, or bonus to grapple) Spines or quills (+1d4 damage when grappled!) Minor energy attack (add energy subtype and damage appropriate for the CR you're aiming for) With a small amount of work you could easily change a standard creature while only slightly increasing its CR. The idea is not nessicarily to create a statistically more challenging creature - but to create a creature the players are not familar with. Imagine a pack of wolves where the pack leader has two heads. Large constrictor snakes that spit flames if you try to chop their heads off. Combine this with an unusual name, an altered description and you practically have a whole new creature with half the work! A purple cat with tentacles called a theski - your players might think you've invented a whole new monster, but you're only using the cat stats from the MM plus two small tentacles for a slight bonus to grapple. These are simple examples, but these ideas can be easily expanded to include anything. It hardly seems impressive, but on the other side of the screen, players won't know what to expect from a theski, or a keelar, or a two-headed gnolls with levels in barbarian and sorcerer with well-laid ambush plans. Simple or complex, you can always keep your players on their toes. :devil:
KJW 12-12-05, 08:23 AM	Here is my problem with this issue, why wouldn't the players know something about orcs or really many monsters. Imagine a young boy destined to be a fighter sitting around the fire and listening to his grandfather tell him about the many beasts of the land. As a kid I read about mythology and probably by 13 knew about most of the beasts of Greek and Norse mythology, in a society with an oral tradition, like D&D this type of knowledge would be common. Everyone knows the story of how King Bob killed the hydra with fire or that the Vampire Count feared garlic and was staked by the peasant girl Jane. If this information was not common knowledge then humanity would have been wiped out ages ago. The truth is that I use MMI for 75% of my encounters, I just keep my description bare and run with it, so what if they know its weaknesses, most monsters know the weaknesses of adventurers just as well. Thought I will say once I ran an albino purple worm and that was a hoot, the party was seriously thrown, but once again MMI with just a little tweak.
Rhomphaia 12-12-05, 08:46 AM	I agree that many people, especially adventurers, will know about a lot of common monsters, especially those of the animal, humanoid and monstrous humanoid types. Maybe even extend 'common knowledge' into certain kinds of magical beasts as well, depending on setting and area. Besides, it is really hard to not metagame such iconic critters such as kobolds and orcs. For more rare or exotic creatures and monsters, you should probably change things up a bit. While everyone knows that drayads seduce men and take them away for years as slaves of some sort, no one can really agree on what powers they have, or even if they display any sort of natural powers. This could be because each individual dryad is different, or maybe different traditions are followed with their powers. As has been stated, adding class levels to intelligent monsters is a good way to go. I love the story in Sword and Fist about the party who confidently charges an unarmed hobgoblin, only to get their butts handed to him in a little paper baggy because that hobgoblin was also a monk. Diversifying the monster's abilities or outright changing them is also a nice touch. For example, don't change the troll's regeration ability, just change the energy types that can kill it from fire and acid to say electrical and cold. Or you can state that not only does it have to be silver that hurts werebeasts, but it must be silver forged under a full moon, or the silver must be forged using one of the werewolf's personal possessions (the possession must be used in the forging process, whether or not the object is silver). Changing energy types the creature is vulnerable or immune to is a nice way to mix things up for a lot of creatures. Another way to do things is to change a creature's spell like or supernatural abilities from one thing to something similar. Take a beholder's central eye. Change the Anti-Magic field and replace the effect with a Dispel Magic (any type). This is a similar ability, but different effect. Maybe giving it a powerful effect usable a certain number of times per day (like Mordenkainen's Disjunction 1/day) might also be an option. The possibilities really are endless. The only limit is imagination.
Torack 12-12-05, 09:06 AM	I just thought I'd let you know that the last solution you offered is boils down to adding a template. :P Never knock adding class/prc levels to a monster. It can be devastating and really surprise them.
Koji 12-12-05, 09:36 AM	Class levels are great--I had kobolds riding dire badgers with a few warrior levels and the feat chain leading up to spirited charge floating amidst a sea of regular kobolds. The surprised reaction from the players was great. Sometimes previous knowledge can work against the players. I had a 40x40 room in this same dungeon full of kobolds (no exits), and one of them starts summoning cat swarms while the other starts hucking fireballs (one had a wand of fireball, I guess the other one had a wand of furball) and still another sets off a device that summons a large earth elemental. The room was really crowded (five adventurers ((one large)), eight kobolds, two cat swarms, and a large elemental will do that), and one kobold sets off the greatest move of the night--a device that summons a gelatinous cube. Most of our players see this thing and don't recognize it and are thus unfazed, being somewhat new to the game. However our veteran cleric sees it and starts truly panicking, like real-life panic. He's yelling out, "KILL IT! IT WILL ABSORB YOU!" and frantically running from it, abandoning all precepts of dignity and strategy. It mindlessly rolls over a few of the kobolds before someone realizes that it has 3 AC and kills it in 2 rounds. I tried to point out to him that he had no knowledge of the thing's abilities, but the damage was done, and it made the night all the better.
RabbitoutofaHat 12-12-05, 10:20 AM	Try changing the creatures evolutionary chain. For example have the kobold take the place of a wyrmling. This can be beneficial in two ways. It's a nasty surprise for the players when they discover that the kobolds parents a dragon twice their size out for vengance and it also means that kobolds left unattended for some time can be quite menacing once they grow up. Maybe nymphs consumed by their vanity could become hags or sirens? You could also change a monsters position in society and alignment. If there going by the monsters weaknesses and statistics they'll probably still kill it, but the death of the poor troll that maintained the bridge into town will not go unavenged! Especially if the bridge breaks and the players are found trying to pawn his signature hat. Yeah, yeah sterotype troll there but you get the point.
clarkvalentine 12-12-05, 11:04 AM	Everyone knows the story of how King Bob killed the hydra with fire or that the Vampire Count feared garlic and was staked by the peasant girl Jane. I like to assume the PCs have heard the folklore. Of course, they trust it at their own risk. Sometimes old stories are just old stories. ;) If you want to be certain, buy some ranks of the appropriate Knowledge skill.
Fergal Stack 12-12-05, 11:15 AM	[/QUOTE]The truth is that I use MMI for 75% of my encounters, I just keep my description bare and run with it, so what if they know its weaknesses, most monsters know the weaknesses of adventurers just as well. Thought I will say once I ran an albino purple worm and that was a hoot, the party was seriously thrown, but once again MMI with just a little tweak.[/QUOTE] OMG!! I'm using that purple worm idea, that is amazing!!
smoker 12-12-05, 11:42 AM	I always thought that adventures that make the players think create a challenge. You shift the challenge from the dice rolls to critical thinking. Of course, the players can roll some of their stats for hints. But it's up to the players to figure stuff out. Afterall, your goal is to challenge the player, not the stats on his character sheet. Or you can shift around alignments to create a challenge. The characters walk into a town. It's a goblin town. But these goblins are LG. A wizard from some time past cast an ancient spell on the goblins who were attacking the village. The spell caused the goblins to become good. After many generations, this trait was passed down as a gene. The players see the goblins "herding" a human man and woman into one of the stores. A few minutes later the man and woman are being brough out in chains. The man's head is put on a tree stump. You see one of the goblins with an axe about to take the guy's head off. What do the characters do not knowing the goblins are friendly, not knowing the man and woman had killed off one of the goblin kids? Let's say the characters rescue the woman, and she tells them that the goblins had captured them and tortured them. Would the characters then attack the town? Creating the unexpected as above is also a way to challenge the players. smoker
KJW 12-12-05, 12:47 PM	The truth is that I use MMI for 75% of my encounters, I just keep my description bare and run with it, so what if they know its weaknesses, most monsters know the weaknesses of adventurers just as well. Thought I will say once I ran an albino purple worm and that was a hoot, the party was seriously thrown, but once again MMI with just a little tweak.[/QUOTE] OMG!! I'm using that purple worm idea, that is amazing!![/QUOTE] It worked brilliantly in the adventure. The party was hired to enter a ruined goblin city (once goblins were a genuine civilization in my campaigns) and recover a lost magical item. The ruins were home to goblins and also the White Worm of Arno-shae (name of ruins), of course it was winter at the time and the players kept hearing White Wyrm. :) In the ruins, all of the goblins were insanely quiet and wore moccasins to not awaken the White Worm, but the players start smashing through the ruins, knocking down walls, and having a grand old time. They figured a wyrm white dragon would not be able to reach where they were, which was true enough. Then the max HD albino purple worm smashes up through the ground and swallows a halfling PC whole, the party flees in terror. OK at this point the characters did metagame and reasoned out the tremorsense problem, some climbed atop boxes the wizard levitated and held another PC, but it was hilarious and the White Worm of Arno'shae remains as a legendary monster of my campaign world.
KJW 12-12-05, 12:59 PM	I always thought that adventures that make the players think create a challenge. You shift the challenge from the dice rolls to critical thinking. Of course, the players can roll some of their stats for hints. But it's up to the players to figure stuff out. Afterall, your goal is to challenge the player, not the stats on his character sheet. Or you can shift around alignments to create a challenge. The characters walk into a town. It's a goblin town. But these goblins are LG. A wizard from some time past cast an ancient spell on the goblins who were attacking the village. The spell caused the goblins to become good. After many generations, this trait was passed down as a gene. The players see the goblins "herding" a human man and woman into one of the stores. A few minutes later the man and woman are being brough out in chains. The man's head is put on a tree stump. You see one of the goblins with an axe about to take the guy's head off. What do the characters do not knowing the goblins are friendly, not knowing the man and woman had killed off one of the goblin kids? Let's say the characters rescue the woman, and she tells them that the goblins had captured them and tortured them. Would the characters then attack the town? Creating the unexpected as above is also a way to challenge the players. smoker I totally agree. I introduced sewer goblins into my campaign, who are goblins that work for the major cities repairing and maintaining the sewers. One of my PCs who is a very traditional D&D player was stunned for a few minutes, truly speechless, at the concept of goblins as part of civlized society. Now whenever my players go into the sewers they hire a sewer goblin or at least make contact with one of the tribes for intelligence. Now this is not to say that these goblins are good-aligned, though some are, but they are now a critical part of society. You just can't go killing the goblins in the sewers, they are civil servants. In another part of my campaign world all half-orcs and half-ogres are slave soldiers for a mighty empire, but they are often warmages, fighters, and extremely competent, disciplined, and professional soldiers. Sure there are the traditional barbaric half-orcs, but my players are cautious lest they are facing one of these 'civilized' half-orcs. Everything can be twisted and it really adds to the campaign, I currently have a PC who is running a minotaur from a city of good minotaurs dedicated to my LG deity of honor and war. I liked the idea and am just waiting to bring it more fully into the campaign. All of these ideas really add to my campaign, where nothing is quite what it seems, which is more like the real world.
Rhomphaia 12-13-05, 05:53 AM	I always thought that adventures that make the players think create a challenge. You shift the challenge from the dice rolls to critical thinking. Of course, the players can roll some of their stats for hints. But it's up to the players to figure stuff out. Afterall, your goal is to challenge the player, not the stats on his character sheet. Or you can shift around alignments to create a challenge. The characters walk into a town. It's a goblin town. But these goblins are LG. A wizard from some time past cast an ancient spell on the goblins who were attacking the village. The spell caused the goblins to become good. After many generations, this trait was passed down as a gene. The players see the goblins "herding" a human man and woman into one of the stores. A few minutes later the man and woman are being brough out in chains. The man's head is put on a tree stump. You see one of the goblins with an axe about to take the guy's head off. What do the characters do not knowing the goblins are friendly, not knowing the man and woman had killed off one of the goblin kids? Let's say the characters rescue the woman, and she tells them that the goblins had captured them and tortured them. Would the characters then attack the town? Creating the unexpected as above is also a way to challenge the players. smoker This is a great scenario, but be very careful in presenting this sort of situation, especially when there is a character who could be dramatically affected by making the wrong decision (cleric, paladin, any exalted character). While I do like the idea, it really fits best in campaigns where the players tend to have their characters dig a little more into the facts of a situation before charging right in.
CzarGarrett 12-13-05, 09:52 AM	To screw with the players, adding templates and class levels is a great place to start. The player might say "Ooh, its an orc. They're easy, they have like 6 hp" And freak out when its an Orc with an additional 2 levels of Warrior and have more than double the hp Several of them together, it will get them to start being wary. Also, randomly giving low level creatures a 2 or 3 times a day ability from like a 0 level spell can make things more interesting. And the civilization factors, as mentioned, is an fantastic method of altering what players know. I have one campaign world where Orcs are moreso a LN society, heavy with monks and spirit shaman, while Elves have fallen into barbarism in a tropical area of the world. That alone got some of the players trying to guess where I was going next and what other surprises I had for them.