Challenging the changeling [Archive] - Wizards Community

Challenging the changeling [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
fuzzeymonk
11-28-05, 02:08 PM i have this pc who is a changeling rouge 3 in a war campagin and i need some suggestions on how to challenge him, im a realitvely new DM and belvie it or not this is the first pc who has played a rouge in one of my campagins so im pretty unprepared.

All your help is greatly appreciated.
Board_Rider
11-28-05, 02:14 PM Give him traps and locks to get around. As far as combat goes let him be a scout or have him encounter things with concealment.

That kinda challenge??
fuzzeymonk
11-28-05, 02:30 PM Give him traps and locks to get around. As far as combat goes let him be a scout or have him encounter things with concealment.

That kinda challenge??

i should refraise my dilema, the problem isn't that i don't know how to challenge the rouge, but how to challenge the changeling rouge his basic combat style is change into the enemy, run away then rejoin battle and sneak attack the enemy, also, this being a war campagin he has been recrutied as a sabator and for the first few jobs all he has done is change into a goblin and walse right in the goblin camp, now his new job is going to be taking him into an enemy stronghold where there are much smarter things than goblins, he tells me that hes going to do the same thing that he has done in the goblin camps, but i need to know is there any sensible way that i can challenge him while he uses this kind of tactic.
HermitIX
11-28-05, 02:48 PM have the guard ask for a copy of his orders.

remember his clothes dont change with him. so he may need a uniform. high security areas may have mind readers, code words, and such.

if he is trying to impersonate a specific person, have people who know that person come up and "chat"
TheChilliGod
11-28-05, 02:54 PM True Sight?
Creatures with really good spot?
Non-humanoid creatures?
And this must be a really short changeling, because there's a 1 foot limit to size difference. Changelings can't really become goblins. Hobgoblins, though, are fine.
Equipment doesn't change either. Perhaps a system of identification?
a_psh
11-28-05, 03:06 PM Remember that changelings are still limited by the parameters of the disguise self spell.

Particularly,You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between.
So changing into a goblin might be out entirely, actually.

So, now let's assume he's sneaking into an orc camp. Same problem, right?

Well...
He gets +10 to Disguise checks from his racial abilities.
Another +8 from ranks, scores, and feats (I'm assuming a fairly low-level rogue).
+18 to Disguise right there. Pretty spiffy.

The vanilla orc has a Spot check of +1.
+1 vs. +18. Seems like he's pretty boned.

Now, the changeling gets a -2 from trying to be a different race. +1 vs. +16.

Also, if we're talking about a small force, apply the "recognizes on sight" or "close friends or associates" bonuses to Spot checks... now we have +5/+7 vs. +16. Still highly advantageous for the changeling, but by no means a done deal anymore.

A sentry at an important post might be, say, an orc ranger (or even just an expert if you prefer NPC-classed guys). Now he can get something like +7 (4 ranks, +2 Alertness, +1 from Wisdom) to his Spot check at first level, whch rises to +11 or +13 if you take the other bonus into account. Getting past him is going to be veeery risky. Given the consequences of failure (most likely, the PC will die), it's probably too great of a challenge for him to try it anymore.

However, especially if this is Eberron, it's usually not sufficient to assume that someone is on your side just based on race. Sentries will be looking for uniforms and papers, too.

Even if the changeling's Disguise is bulletproof, he may still have to talk his way past... Bluff vs. Sense Motive. Now you're also rolling something like +8 Bluff vs. the orc's -1 Sense Motive modifier.

Now throw in some papers and stuff... opposed Forgery skills. Again, something like +8 vs. -1. Low chance of failure.

But, as you can see, these things are beginning to add up. If the changeling has a 10% chance of failing and being executed per check, there's now a pretty high likelihood that he'll lose his head when he tries to get into a particularly important location.

Getting into camp? Sure, probably easy. Getting into the commander's tent and stealing the plans? Suicide.
primemover003
11-28-05, 03:18 PM I'm with a_psh on everything...

But as an addition, here's the easiest way to ferret out intruders in a camp: Guard Dogs or any animal trained to Guard with the Scent ability. Simple, cheap, and effective.
Board_Rider
11-28-05, 04:09 PM As others have stated, it will take more to do anything with regards to a more disciplined military unit. At the very least perimeter guards in their LP/OP's will expect a password when challenged.

Once in the camp the rogue could suffer from merely being at the wrong place. Someone, no matter how good the disguise, would question his prescence. Have him roleplay these possible scenarios.

If, however, you want him to succeed then remember army size (he may blend in easier), attitude (they think they're to powerful to be infiltrated) or poorly led troops which may not offer to much resistance.
a_psh
11-28-05, 04:35 PM I'm with a_psh on everything...

But as an addition, here's the easiest way to ferret out intruders in a camp: Guard Dogs or any animal trained to Guard with the Scent ability. Simple, cheap, and effective.And they work against invisibility, too!
Sildatorak
11-29-05, 03:35 AM Also remember that it is reasonable for armies to expect magically disguised spies to infiltrate any camp of sufficient importance. In worlds with magic, expect magical security. The disguise ability of changelings is supernatural and will be detected by something as simple as detect magic which is given to both spellthieves and warlocks as a spell-like ability at fairly low levels (2 and 4 respectively, IIRC). At higher levels it isn't out of the question for an officer with wizard levels to have a permanent arcane sight and be in an area that this changeling wishes to infiltrate (has to be at least an 11th level wizard so that won't be for a bit yet).
a_psh
11-29-05, 07:42 AM Also remember that it is reasonable for armies to expect magically disguised spies to infiltrate any camp of sufficient importance. In worlds with magic, expect magical security. The disguise ability of changelings is supernatural and will be detected by something as simple as detect magic which is given to both spellthieves and warlocks as a spell-like ability at fairly low levels (2 and 4 respectively, IIRC). At higher levels it isn't out of the question for an officer with wizard levels to have a permanent arcane sight and be in an area that this changeling wishes to infiltrate (has to be at least an 11th level wizard so that won't be for a bit yet).Are we certain that detect magic picks up supernatural abilities?
fuzzeymonk
11-29-05, 08:46 AM what about when he gets into combat hes 3rd lvl and the rest of the group is 5th, this is because of the tactic he uses, leave battle, change into enemy come back and attack, by the time he does that though the battle is already over, he complains about not being high enough lvl for encounters so when i tell him all he says is that's what rouges do, i try to throw skeletons at him so his tactic won't work but he says im being un fair, is there a way i can give him a worth while 3rd lvl encoutner without it being a slughterfest for the other pcs and rewarding for him.

P.S great ideas keep them coming
Jenny With The Lantern
11-29-05, 09:00 AM He changes into the enemy? What happens if a group of enemies just happens to be heading towards the battle and stumble upon him?

Maybe he will be arrested or attacked for running away form a battle?
Maybe they will drag him along and the party will attack him (not recognizing him)?
Even more devious: have him run into a wizard with true seeing and some form of command enchantments. The wizard could order him around and his own party would attack him?

How does the party react to having a member running away from battle all the time (changing takes him a round, I suppose)? They have to take the blows because he's off to do his thing elsewhere..
sorites
11-29-05, 09:42 AM is there a way i can give him a worth while 3rd lvl encoutner without it being a slughterfest for the other pcs and rewarding for him.
Why not try using a mix of CR monsters. For example, you could create an encounter with 1 CR4 leader, 2 CR2 lietenants, and 4 CR1 grunts. Having several opponents on the battlefield can be challenging by itself (monsters can help one another flank, etc.). Plus, with the CR1s and CR2s, the 3rd-level rogue should have a few enemies that are more matched to his level.
primemover003
11-29-05, 03:23 PM Why is he getting left behind??? Even if he disengages from combat to disguise and return he should still be gaining XP for those encounters. All he really needs to do is move off about 60 feet into some kind of cover and move/hide around the back of the enemy line. Now in a smaller melee this isn't a great tactic, but in a larger fray it'd be ideal. In fact I would definitely reward him for his ingenuity and grant him some Ad Hoc XP for roleplaying or just a good idea.
makeshiftwings
11-29-05, 04:13 PM Why is he getting left behind??? Even if he disengages from combat to disguise and return he should still be gaining XP for those encounters. All he really needs to do is move off about 60 feet into some kind of cover and move/hide around the back of the enemy line. Now in a smaller melee this isn't a great tactic, but in a larger fray it'd be ideal. In fact I would definitely reward him for his ingenuity and grant him some Ad Hoc XP for roleplaying or just a good idea.

I'm on the fence about this; I would see what the rest of the party thinks. If every fight he is just running away, waiting in safety for the rest of the party to kill 80% of the enemy, and then coming back right at the end to take a pot-shot at some nearly dead orc, then no, he doesn't deserve XP, unless he is somehow doing something else very useful for the rest of the party, like helping them past a lot of doors and traps. But if all he's doing is constantly fleeing, solely to keep himself out of danger with no care for the other players, then he shouldn't get XP for those fights.
primemover003
11-29-05, 05:37 PM If the character rolls initiative they get XP. Just being in combat to roll initiative means they're in danger. Whether they help out in combat or not does't matter.

If in a given encounter one PC rolls dead last in intiative and all the enemies are killed before their turn comes up would you deny them XP? No you wouldn't. What if the Wizard turns invisible, levitates out of combat and reserves his spells for the BBEG when facing goblin fodder??? Do you deny him XP?
a_psh
11-29-05, 07:28 PM What actual benefit does he get from disguising as the enemy and then coming back? One whole sneak attack before the jig is up and they treat him just like an enemy again?

Why isn't this guy just flanking or, barring that, using ranged attacks?

I just don't see the point of his tactic.
primemover003
11-29-05, 09:41 PM It's not tactical, it's COOL... Sometimes we play to do cool stuff.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
fuzzeymonk 11-28-05, 02:08 PM	i have this pc who is a changeling rouge 3 in a war campagin and i need some suggestions on how to challenge him, im a realitvely new DM and belvie it or not this is the first pc who has played a rouge in one of my campagins so im pretty unprepared. All your help is greatly appreciated.
Board_Rider 11-28-05, 02:14 PM	Give him traps and locks to get around. As far as combat goes let him be a scout or have him encounter things with concealment. That kinda challenge??
fuzzeymonk 11-28-05, 02:30 PM	Give him traps and locks to get around. As far as combat goes let him be a scout or have him encounter things with concealment. That kinda challenge?? i should refraise my dilema, the problem isn't that i don't know how to challenge the rouge, but how to challenge the changeling rouge his basic combat style is change into the enemy, run away then rejoin battle and sneak attack the enemy, also, this being a war campagin he has been recrutied as a sabator and for the first few jobs all he has done is change into a goblin and walse right in the goblin camp, now his new job is going to be taking him into an enemy stronghold where there are much smarter things than goblins, he tells me that hes going to do the same thing that he has done in the goblin camps, but i need to know is there any sensible way that i can challenge him while he uses this kind of tactic.
HermitIX 11-28-05, 02:48 PM	have the guard ask for a copy of his orders. remember his clothes dont change with him. so he may need a uniform. high security areas may have mind readers, code words, and such. if he is trying to impersonate a specific person, have people who know that person come up and "chat"
TheChilliGod 11-28-05, 02:54 PM	True Sight? Creatures with really good spot? Non-humanoid creatures? And this must be a really short changeling, because there's a 1 foot limit to size difference. Changelings can't really become goblins. Hobgoblins, though, are fine. Equipment doesn't change either. Perhaps a system of identification?
a_psh 11-28-05, 03:06 PM	Remember that changelings are still limited by the parameters of the disguise self spell. Particularly,You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. So changing into a goblin might be out entirely, actually. So, now let's assume he's sneaking into an orc camp. Same problem, right? Well... He gets +10 to Disguise checks from his racial abilities. Another +8 from ranks, scores, and feats (I'm assuming a fairly low-level rogue). +18 to Disguise right there. Pretty spiffy. The vanilla orc has a Spot check of +1. +1 vs. +18. Seems like he's pretty boned. Now, the changeling gets a -2 from trying to be a different race. +1 vs. +16. Also, if we're talking about a small force, apply the "recognizes on sight" or "close friends or associates" bonuses to Spot checks... now we have +5/+7 vs. +16. Still highly advantageous for the changeling, but by no means a done deal anymore. A sentry at an important post might be, say, an orc ranger (or even just an expert if you prefer NPC-classed guys). Now he can get something like +7 (4 ranks, +2 Alertness, +1 from Wisdom) to his Spot check at first level, whch rises to +11 or +13 if you take the other bonus into account. Getting past him is going to be veeery risky. Given the consequences of failure (most likely, the PC will die), it's probably too great of a challenge for him to try it anymore. However, especially if this is Eberron, it's usually not sufficient to assume that someone is on your side just based on race. Sentries will be looking for uniforms and papers, too. Even if the changeling's Disguise is bulletproof, he may still have to talk his way past... Bluff vs. Sense Motive. Now you're also rolling something like +8 Bluff vs. the orc's -1 Sense Motive modifier. Now throw in some papers and stuff... opposed Forgery skills. Again, something like +8 vs. -1. Low chance of failure. But, as you can see, these things are beginning to add up. If the changeling has a 10% chance of failing and being executed per check, there's now a pretty high likelihood that he'll lose his head when he tries to get into a particularly important location. Getting into camp? Sure, probably easy. Getting into the commander's tent and stealing the plans? Suicide.
primemover003 11-28-05, 03:18 PM	I'm with a_psh on everything... But as an addition, here's the easiest way to ferret out intruders in a camp: Guard Dogs or any animal trained to Guard with the Scent ability. Simple, cheap, and effective.
Board_Rider 11-28-05, 04:09 PM	As others have stated, it will take more to do anything with regards to a more disciplined military unit. At the very least perimeter guards in their LP/OP's will expect a password when challenged. Once in the camp the rogue could suffer from merely being at the wrong place. Someone, no matter how good the disguise, would question his prescence. Have him roleplay these possible scenarios. If, however, you want him to succeed then remember army size (he may blend in easier), attitude (they think they're to powerful to be infiltrated) or poorly led troops which may not offer to much resistance.
a_psh 11-28-05, 04:35 PM	I'm with a_psh on everything... But as an addition, here's the easiest way to ferret out intruders in a camp: Guard Dogs or any animal trained to Guard with the Scent ability. Simple, cheap, and effective.And they work against invisibility, too!
Sildatorak 11-29-05, 03:35 AM	Also remember that it is reasonable for armies to expect magically disguised spies to infiltrate any camp of sufficient importance. In worlds with magic, expect magical security. The disguise ability of changelings is supernatural and will be detected by something as simple as detect magic which is given to both spellthieves and warlocks as a spell-like ability at fairly low levels (2 and 4 respectively, IIRC). At higher levels it isn't out of the question for an officer with wizard levels to have a permanent arcane sight and be in an area that this changeling wishes to infiltrate (has to be at least an 11th level wizard so that won't be for a bit yet).
a_psh 11-29-05, 07:42 AM	Also remember that it is reasonable for armies to expect magically disguised spies to infiltrate any camp of sufficient importance. In worlds with magic, expect magical security. The disguise ability of changelings is supernatural and will be detected by something as simple as detect magic which is given to both spellthieves and warlocks as a spell-like ability at fairly low levels (2 and 4 respectively, IIRC). At higher levels it isn't out of the question for an officer with wizard levels to have a permanent arcane sight and be in an area that this changeling wishes to infiltrate (has to be at least an 11th level wizard so that won't be for a bit yet).Are we certain that detect magic picks up supernatural abilities?
fuzzeymonk 11-29-05, 08:46 AM	what about when he gets into combat hes 3rd lvl and the rest of the group is 5th, this is because of the tactic he uses, leave battle, change into enemy come back and attack, by the time he does that though the battle is already over, he complains about not being high enough lvl for encounters so when i tell him all he says is that's what rouges do, i try to throw skeletons at him so his tactic won't work but he says im being un fair, is there a way i can give him a worth while 3rd lvl encoutner without it being a slughterfest for the other pcs and rewarding for him. P.S great ideas keep them coming
Jenny With The Lantern 11-29-05, 09:00 AM	He changes into the enemy? What happens if a group of enemies just happens to be heading towards the battle and stumble upon him? Maybe he will be arrested or attacked for running away form a battle? Maybe they will drag him along and the party will attack him (not recognizing him)? Even more devious: have him run into a wizard with true seeing and some form of command enchantments. The wizard could order him around and his own party would attack him? How does the party react to having a member running away from battle all the time (changing takes him a round, I suppose)? They have to take the blows because he's off to do his thing elsewhere..
sorites 11-29-05, 09:42 AM	is there a way i can give him a worth while 3rd lvl encoutner without it being a slughterfest for the other pcs and rewarding for him. Why not try using a mix of CR monsters. For example, you could create an encounter with 1 CR4 leader, 2 CR2 lietenants, and 4 CR1 grunts. Having several opponents on the battlefield can be challenging by itself (monsters can help one another flank, etc.). Plus, with the CR1s and CR2s, the 3rd-level rogue should have a few enemies that are more matched to his level.
primemover003 11-29-05, 03:23 PM	Why is he getting left behind??? Even if he disengages from combat to disguise and return he should still be gaining XP for those encounters. All he really needs to do is move off about 60 feet into some kind of cover and move/hide around the back of the enemy line. Now in a smaller melee this isn't a great tactic, but in a larger fray it'd be ideal. In fact I would definitely reward him for his ingenuity and grant him some Ad Hoc XP for roleplaying or just a good idea.
makeshiftwings 11-29-05, 04:13 PM	Why is he getting left behind??? Even if he disengages from combat to disguise and return he should still be gaining XP for those encounters. All he really needs to do is move off about 60 feet into some kind of cover and move/hide around the back of the enemy line. Now in a smaller melee this isn't a great tactic, but in a larger fray it'd be ideal. In fact I would definitely reward him for his ingenuity and grant him some Ad Hoc XP for roleplaying or just a good idea. I'm on the fence about this; I would see what the rest of the party thinks. If every fight he is just running away, waiting in safety for the rest of the party to kill 80% of the enemy, and then coming back right at the end to take a pot-shot at some nearly dead orc, then no, he doesn't deserve XP, unless he is somehow doing something else very useful for the rest of the party, like helping them past a lot of doors and traps. But if all he's doing is constantly fleeing, solely to keep himself out of danger with no care for the other players, then he shouldn't get XP for those fights.
primemover003 11-29-05, 05:37 PM	If the character rolls initiative they get XP. Just being in combat to roll initiative means they're in danger. Whether they help out in combat or not does't matter. If in a given encounter one PC rolls dead last in intiative and all the enemies are killed before their turn comes up would you deny them XP? No you wouldn't. What if the Wizard turns invisible, levitates out of combat and reserves his spells for the BBEG when facing goblin fodder??? Do you deny him XP?
a_psh 11-29-05, 07:28 PM	What actual benefit does he get from disguising as the enemy and then coming back? One whole sneak attack before the jig is up and they treat him just like an enemy again? Why isn't this guy just flanking or, barring that, using ranged attacks? I just don't see the point of his tactic.
primemover003 11-29-05, 09:41 PM	It's not tactical, it's COOL... Sometimes we play to do cool stuff.