Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mr. Mint 05-27-05, 01:31 PM	Hey folks, I DM for the group: 14 Mage, 14 Fighter, 11 Barbarian, 10 Rogue/ranger, 14 Ranger. When it comes to a straight out fight, I can challenge most of the group without a problem. The exception being the figher with his 29 AC, at least not without wiping out the rest of the party in the process. Almost had a TPK last session, mage went down (dead dead) in two rounds and the rest of the party wasn't far behind. Meanwhile the fighter had lost less than 1/4 of his hp at that point. So, I'm looking for creative ideas on how to challenge the fighter without killing everyone else. Taking away his gear is something I'd like to avoid (did that). Spellls/abilities with will saves is another option, but that happens semi-regularly. Mixed fights is another idea I use occasionally, but that can be difficult to setup sometimes. Another option is to upgrade the armor on the others so that they don't get hit quit so much. I'm not sure I want to do that though.. 1 tank is hard enough to deal with. So, any ideas?
CzarGarrett 05-27-05, 01:38 PM	Since you've already considered will save spells, might I suggest lots of little things. I know its a bad analogy given the levels, but you'll get the idea. Party goes into small underground complex. Handful of Ogres attack the Barb, Rog/Rang and Rang. Mage falls back. Several goblin sharp shooters target fighter with some flaming burst arrows. The fighter won't get hit very often with the actual arrows, but you can still do bits of fire damage to him- remember, just because you 'miss' a target, doesn't mean you actually missed the target, you just didn't do damage it it. Or reverse the situation some. Lots of little guys engage everyone else, leaving a buffed out tank of an Ogre to fight this tanked out Fighter. So long as the little guys don't die too quickly, the fighter is going to have to deal with a lot of damage over the course of the battle.
Illion the Red 05-27-05, 01:40 PM	I would suggest using intelligent enemies and allowing them to use good tactics. For instance, use multiple creatures and flank the fighter quickly. That should reduce his AC a bit. Another option is to hit the party with touch attacks. Of course, that depends on where the fighter gets his high armor class from. If it's mostly from deflection, dodge, or force effects, then the touch alternative wouldn't be very effective. Another thought is to use spells/creature abilities to isolate the fighter. If the fighter is one to charge into battle, have a caster use walls of force/iron/stone/whatever, to isolate the fighter from the rest of the group so that he can be swarmed.
cvazi 05-27-05, 01:49 PM	Grappling works pretty well (took down a 40+ AC Tank with my SIVAK Draconian- Warshaper grappler :) ) Will Saves- Have you tried dominating? Swarms- Swarms ignore armor and they are pretty hard to get rid of (especially if the mage is too afraid to nuke his own teammate.
Asmodai_00 05-27-05, 01:49 PM	The fighter in my group is pretty fun to challenge as well because his reflex saves and the armor check penalty. Having a fight in/on/near water will certainly scare him Grease floors, bridges, hallways, etc. Fight on a balance beam over a nasty pit. If all else fails, drop a fireball or a lightning bolt on him.
astute1 05-27-05, 01:50 PM	Spells that auto-hit or require ranged touch attacks to hit. Magic missile, scorching ray, orb of acid, disintegrate, etc. Also, unless he's gotten evasion somehow, he's probably susceptable to spells that allow reflex saves. Try having the party fight brass golems while a sorcerer throws fireballs at them. The golems get healed by the fire, and meanwhile the fighter takes damage...
PlaidViking 05-27-05, 01:54 PM	The best way to deal with someone with high AC is to take them out of the main battle. Drop him in a pit, use a portcullis to isolate them, create a really good grappler to incapacitate him. Use your imagination to get some good ideas to keep him from owning combat. I'm saying this from when I made my first broken character. A permanently enlarged black orc barbarian/fighter/fist of hextor/soul eater/hulking hurler named Grond. Suffice to say during the last battle he had +1360 to his attack, checks, and saves, and his HP is 14960 after killing 200 troops. His weapon was a huge, +2, vile, enfeebling, adamantine, wounding, necrotic focus triple flail. He always power attacks for full leading to the following result: 4 attacks each dealing 1d3(1d8)+56, -1 Con, +1 vile, transfers the following from the target to Grond (1 attack/check/save, 11HP, lasting 1 hour) crits on a 17 to 20 x4, dealing 1d6+2 Str in addition to usual criting effects. But I digress, any character, no matter how broken, has a weakness...except Grond, it took the entire pantheon of gods to put him down.
Arcade 05-27-05, 01:59 PM	My guess is that the rest of your party just isn't protecting themselves enough. AC 29 at 14th level isn't that big a deal. A 14th level fighter can easily be at +20 to hit (+14 BAB, +4 strength, +1 magic weapon, +1 weapon focus). So the AC29 fighter is going to be hit on a 9 or higher by a standard enemy. Many have higher attack bonuses. If the monsters are going for the other characters first, it's probably because they are so much more vulnerable. Your fighter figure should be providing cover for the other characters and rushing off to protect them when they are in trouble. If his AC is so high, he doesn't need to worry about attacks of opportunity. If the fighter is also not hurting the monsters that much, the monsters have no reason to attack the fighter- they take out the other threats instead. If the fighter is doing lots of damage, the monsters need to focus on the fighter or run away. Just because a monster can kill a character doesn't mean they should if it is going to mean the other characters kill the monster right away. It could be your fighter is either not doing his job of protecting the party or the rest of the players are rushing in to combat without protecting themselves first. But it's just an assumption I'm making without actually knowing your party or its circumstances. It might just be that there's an imbalance that's no one's fault. However, if you want to change this situation yourself, there are a number of ways to get around high AC characters: 1) touch attacks (shadow, spectre, touch spells, ranged touch spells) Enervation is a great ranged touch spell that doesn't allow a save 2) Grapple attacks. Otyugh, high level monk oozes. They all have great grapple attacks. A fighter usually has a good grapple check as well, but it means his AC is no longer part of the equation. The kobold swarm is another part of this. 3) saving throws- fighters typically have horrible will saves. Reflex saves are are moderate at best. This makes charm, dominate, illusion, and most damaging spell types highly effective against the fighter. 4) traps - similar to point 3, traps usually require saving throws 5) unusual fights- adding a time limit or a specific goal to a fight besides killing everyone else can drastically change the importance of AC. Rushing through a horde of undead to stop a ritual sacrifice, fighting in a poison filled cavern, etc. In these cases, AC may be important, but other factors are important as well, maybe even more important. 6) Swarms. Swarms are a pain in the neck and ignore armor. Pretty much your wizard is the only one who can do anything about it. But they can be great encounters to play if done right. Hope this helps, I will end my rambing now. :)
Ogmug 05-27-05, 02:00 PM	pit them against creatuers with sorcerer/fighter combos 1. true strike plus range attack. Heck .. true strike +any...ad 20 to your next attack roll (effectively makes his ac=9).. a clan of kobolds (favored class sorcerers), each with 3 levels of sorcerer, and 9 levels of fighter, should be easy to handle. but... the fighter might start taking some damage. Or you can use Tanglefoot Bag: When you throw a tanglefoot bag at a creature (as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet), the bag comes apart and the goo bursts out, entangling the target and then becoming tough and resilient upon exposure to air. An entangled creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity and must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be glued to the floor, unable to move. Even on a successful save, it can move only at half speed. Huge or larger creatures are unaffected by a tanglefoot bag. Alchemist’s Fire: You can throw a flask of alchemist’s fire as a splash weapon. Treat this attack as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet. Acid: You can throw a flask of acid as a splash weapon. Treat this attack as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet. A direct hit deals 1d6 points of acid damage. Every creature within 5 feet of the point where the acid hits takes 1 point of acid damage from the splash. Net: A net is used to entangle enemies. When you throw a net, you make a ranged touch attack against your target. A net’s maximum range is 10 feet. If you hit, the target is entangled. An entangled creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty on Dexterity, can move at only half speed, and cannot charge or run. If you control the trailing rope by succeeding on an opposed Strength check while holding it, the entangled creature can move only within the limits that the rope allows. If the entangled creature attempts to cast a spell, it must make a DC 15 Concentration check or be unable to cast the spell. An entangled creature can escape with a DC 20 Escape Artist check (a full-round action). The net has 5 hit points and can be burst with a DC 25 Strength check (also a full-round action). A net is useful only against creatures within one size category of you. A net must be folded to be thrown effectively. The first time you throw your net in a fight, you make a normal ranged touch attack roll. After the net is unfolded, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls with it. It takes 2 rounds for a proficient user to fold a net and twice that long for a nonproficient one to do so. Or you can dominate the fighter (that will teach him to have such high ac), ... Curse/doom. anything that decreases strength and makes him encumbered. enervate fatigue spells. If the armor is magical, antimagic fields. Dispell (targetted) suppression spells. etc.
primemover003 05-27-05, 04:54 PM	Please AC 29 at 14th... IMC the monk, level 13, is AC 35, 36 with dodge!!! Only my uber buffed Cleric NPC and an Elder Air elemental have been able to hit him. In one HIGH level game the same player made a AC 45 Ranger (18th level). With some real min/maxing like the monkeys on the CO boards AC's can reach the 80's!!! (of course that's near 20th level).
scott644 05-27-05, 05:02 PM	First and foremost, what generates this AC? If we know that, we can address the AC issue more pointedly. That having been said, here are some staples for the standard "tank" PC. 1. Will saves 2. Reflex saves 3. Touch attacks 4. Running battles - nothing like having a fast-paced adversary outmaneuvering your whole party because a heavily armored fighter can't keep up. 5. Aquatic scenarios - ever tried to swim in full plate? 6. Jumping scenarios 7. Anything requiring Dex checks
The nameles one 05-27-05, 05:04 PM	Ray of Enfeeblement, when you absolutely, positively need a heavily armored target down. All my NPC mages pack it.
wereooze 05-27-05, 05:06 PM	oozes, Slimes, and rustmonsters.
The nameles one 05-27-05, 05:17 PM	Dont forget swarms either. A level 20 fighter with no energy damage source will run away like a little girl from single spider swarm.
Derren S. 05-27-05, 05:24 PM	AC 29 gives you trouble? Every CR 14 monster is able to hit that easily. You problem isn't this player, it are all the other players who are much too weak for their level.
Talanall 05-27-05, 05:34 PM	Just to open up my comment, I'd like to establish that AC 29 is not high. A fighter with Dex 12, +2 full plate armor, a +2 heavy shield, a ring of protection +2, and an amulet of natural armor +2 can have AC 29. The total cost for something like that is approximately 17,800 gp. At level 14, this fighter should have gear with a value totaling somewhere near 150,000 gp. I'm basing this on the assumed values listed in the 3.5 DMG. So in a game where the "default" assumptions about treasure/gear, not only is AC 29 not high, it is EXTREMELY LOW. The real problem is that you have character levels ranging from 14 to 10. You have hit point totals appropriate to those levels. A level 14 character with a good Constitution score will have a lot more hit points than a level 10 character with a poor Con score. My advice? Even out the level disparity, and don't let it creep into your game again. A difference of about 1 level is one thing. A difference of 4 levels is a problem, since the CR system assumes that a party of 4 level 14 characters can overcome a CR 14 creature and still retain 4/5 of their total resources. But you don't have a party of 4 level 14 characters. I'd chalk up the mage's death to bad tactics from your players, and/or some stupid mistake on his part. The others died because they're much lower in level than the highest-level characters in the party. In short, this is not a "high-AC fighter" problem. This is "my party is composed of characters of widely disparate levels," badly misdiagnosed as "the fighter's AC is too high."
Feriin 05-28-05, 11:19 AM	29 ac isnt that high. Was the fighter using dodge as well as combat expertise as well as improved combat expertise? I could see 44 ac that way then.. I noticed that the party didn't really have a healer type, or you neglected to mention it. If you really think the fighters AC is too high then pack up monsters on him. Have wizards/sorcerers use Magic Missle or even a modified version of enfeeblement ( take away dex instead of strength). Pit the fighter against a CLeric/Blackguard (assuming the fighter is good ofcourse) of equal or near equal level (and gear, have him gate when he gets low or something), while at the same time ocupying the rest of the group with something else. Heck my Cleric/Fighter/Black Guard/Dragonslayer at level 17 has a 49 AC before I even do anything , and I can raise it to as high as 65 in 1 round. Has the ability to Smite , the ability to smite good cast 6th level devine spells and alot of other stuff.
Liwmial 05-28-05, 11:26 AM	Depending on what his armor is, a rust monster could be very effective, and a magil dampening effect could ruin any bonuses he recieves from otherworldy powers... but that may leave your casters even more prone.
Super Guy 05-28-05, 12:39 PM	Though I hate to suggest it, because I think it's unfair, if there is a BBEG and his minions are losing to this fighter and he knows that the fighter is exceptionally challenging, have him send out a team to dispatch the fighter and thus weaken the group. I don't recommend it, though, unless the fighter is a munchkin. In which case, send an Ancient Wyrm Red Dragon after his sorry hide.
TinManFan 05-28-05, 12:51 PM	First off, 29? Good lord, man should be ashamed of himself. Second, my new favorite words (Since I have a habit of playing casters) Ranged Touch Attacks. Rays = nasty, esp since most don't allow saves. Might consider area spells, but you said you don't wanna trash the rest of the party. Also, an equally "high" AC baddie who challenges your friend's fighter to a duel of honor (Dunno how Lawful he is but might work). Trips, Grapples, Disarms and Sunders make tanks sad. Next, Blur/Displacement. So what if he does 90 dmg in a hit, need to roll that % die. Lastly, things with LOTS of attacks. Eventually that Illithid will get a tentacle on him.
Psifon 05-28-05, 01:32 PM	AC really isn't that hard to get around Anything that limits your fighter's mobility will work well. Nets Tanglefoot bags Ropers a wide veriety of magical effects etc. etc. Touch attacks. Hit him with a curse spell, make it so he gets a -6 to his dex, or he has a 50% chance of losing his action every round. Magnitize his armor (this is a favorite) One of my favorite encounters for this level of play is the group of 5 10th level halfling rogues. The Rogues have the Opportunist class ability, and the feats low blow and swarm fighting. What they do is run into your square and all attack while you lose your dex. They grant eachother like +2 attack bonus per rogue after the first, so they get like a +8 to hit. If even ONE of them hits, the other 4 all get a second free attack at full BAB. EACH hit does base weapon damage +5d6 of sneek attack. Finally, make sure you gave them all Oil of magic weapon (+5) for the addtional to hit and damage. Naturally, since your figher is usually in the front of the party... I LOVED the look on my player's faces when I hit them with this one!
Siduakal 05-28-05, 01:35 PM	If his FLat-Footed AC is low Bluff with Improved Feint. Feint, smack.. Feint, smack.. over and over. Do it with a character who has a few sneak attack dice and he's in for a rough fight. If his touch AC is low Hit him with touch attacks and ranged touch attacks.