Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gavin Stormlance 03-09-08, 11:08 PM	I'd like to make a new setting with a dawn of history theme, similar to the Conan movies. I was wondering what changes to make to equipment and classes if any to achive this theme? Any advice would be appreciated.
Loftower 03-10-08, 01:02 AM	First, I don’t know how to reconcile the ideas of “dawn of history” and “the Conan movies.” It’s been a long time since I saw the Conan movies, but I don’t recall primitive technology, just poverty preventing most folks from having it. If that’s the feel, forbid Monks and cut the PCs’ funds dramatically (along with everyone else’s, of course). For a stone-age campaign there are a lot of changes. I expect that there are other game systems which you could use more easily than adapting D&D. Here are some examples: Heavy armor does not exist. Every class that has a heavy armor ability is automatically nerfed by this. Medium armor isn’t much more effective than light armor (because of the limited types available). Again, armored classes suffer. Technologically advanced weapons (like the long sword) do not exist; more nerfing. Many other classes and abilities break the “flavor.” Arcane magic should be more primitive as well (maybe just harder to come by). Even divine magic is different. Monks don’t really fit the concept, but if you allow them they might be a very strong fighter compared to a Fighter with hide armor and a stone ax. … so, you wind up nerfing everyone a whole lot, and then trying to balance encounters against them. Did I mention it might be less work to use a different game system?
AntiDjinn 03-10-08, 02:06 AM	For arcane casters use the Adept (normally an NPC class). Also, remove all the "name brand" spells: No one had Tenser's Floating Disc centuries before he was born. Assume such things as planar travel have not been discovered yet; people might realize that there are realms beyond, to which the souls of the dead travel, but it would not be common for folks to physically visit such planes and return. An exception would be vision questing which involves out of body travel to the astral plane. The spirit shaman might be your best bet for a divine class. If you want a more "Conan" feel, then consider increasing the casting time of all spells so that at a minimum they take a full round. Whenever a sorcerer started a spell, Conan could generally cross the room and lay into him before he could finish, unless the caster was simply out of reach. Many spells might involve a full ritual or multi-caster ceremony since the more precise formulae that allow rapid casting have not been created yet. By the way, I would call this stone age to early bronze age, or simply "sword and sorcery". Unless you want to make the PCs put skill ranks into cave painting or take the Walk Upright feat, you probably don't want to go back to the point where characters actually have to invent language in order to form a party.
Gavin Stormlance 03-10-08, 07:18 AM	When I say dawn of history, I'm mainly talking about the period the came after the stone age, but before the rise of the greek and roman civilizations. As the chronicler of Conan put it "In a time between when the ocean swallowed Atlantis and the rise of the Sons of Aramis."
Loftower 03-10-08, 11:55 AM	Time period is not as important at technological and cultural advancement. Weapons were made of steel. Long bows were in common use. Heavy armors were available. So, between what AntiDjinn and I have posted, we’ve nerfed just about every class or type except a few. If you want to maintain balance you will have to nerf the others as well (Rogue leaps to mind as over-powered in this scenario).
Jackmojo 03-10-08, 12:12 PM	How close to Conan are you actually aiming? I ask because low technology (lower then standard pseudo medieval fantasy) hurts non spell casters much more then anyone else, so you'd also need to take into account all the various advice for running low magic games that gets thrown about on these boards. So you'll either need to grant them supernatural powers (like say Hercules had his phenomenal strength to make up for little to no equipment, or Perseus had equipment granted by the gods). Several of Fantasy Flights Game lines (Dawnforge (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/dawnforge.html) in particular is an Age of Myths setting) have some good ideas for this If you're wanting actual Conan style (not just age of myths kind of thing) then you'll definitely need to take a look at keeping magic users in line (which was handled in the Conan setting by magic being slow and gate keepered by the Elder Gods (a.k.a. the Cthulhu Mythos) who would regularly smack down wizards and the like if anything went wrong with their spells. I recommend the Conan (http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/rpg/series.php?qsSeries=7) d20 game from Mongoose as it addresses this style very well. Obviously you may not want to purchase anything, but giving these a look over at your local retailer or online might give you smoe more ideas as well. Jack
Olween 03-10-08, 02:20 PM	That's an interesting idea. I guess you are aiming at early late neolithic/bronze age. Agriculture had been developed and people had settle down in several regions, although most of the world was still occupied by nomadic hunter/gatherer (most of which had a few cattle rearing going on). Horses might have been domesticated but equitation would still be very rare (a feat onto itself, maybe) and horses, when present, would be more reserved to pull weights and stuff. Agriculture would exist but be terribly less efficient than later (due to a combination of techniques still being worked out; selection and breeding just as its infancy and lack of metal tools) and most people would continuously be under threat of starvation. Nonetheless, civilization was in progress with the settling down giving birth to an aristocracy and enough stability to start significant works, fortifications, and construction of public building like palaces and temples (Stonehenge; the temple of Solomon). Any way, from the point of view of the game... Steel weapons are unheard of and bronze weapon and armour are very rare; most people still use wood; stone or bone implements. An easy solution is to decide that the statistics of the PHB are that of such a neolithic weapon (after all, they are not 'realistic' themselves... Rarely do you need more than one hit with a sword to kill an un-armoured person), and you can put the sunder rule into effect. The rare metal weapons would be +1 or +2 weapons with immunity to sunder. Also, except in the rare places that have mastered a reliable metallurgy, these weapons would not be available for selling, the players will have to get them the ol' fashioned way. And even then, not all of their enemies should have such weapons. Balancing the non-weapon dependant classes will be somewhat of a problem. People have suggested getting rid of the monk altogether, why not, although, with the system I imagine, they would not be too over-powered. As for the spellcaster, I agree that the best solution might be to tune them down and maybe to remove some of their spells.
Lincoln Hills 03-10-08, 02:41 PM	Consult Arms & Equipment Guide, which among other things has a part of its Armor & Weapons chapter which describes when particular kinds of gear were available, tech-wise. It also contains rules for chariots, which will be useful to you in such a game.
Gavin Stormlance 03-10-08, 05:11 PM	How close to Conan are you actually aiming? I ask because low technology (lower then standard pseudo medieval fantasy) hurts non spell casters much more then anyone else, so you'd also need to take into account all the various advice for running low magic games that gets thrown about on these boards. So you'll either need to grant them supernatural powers (like say Hercules had his phenomenal strength to make up for little to no equipment, or Perseus had equipment granted by the gods). Several of Fantasy Flights Game lines (Dawnforge in particular is an Age of Myths setting) have some good ideas for this I'm looking for something pretty close to the Conan setting, but not the exact same thing. Concerning magic I really want to make magic feel different in this setting, so I thought I might use one of the systems from Tome of Magic, I'm leaning toward either Binding or Shadow Magic, I'd love to get your thoughts on how these might stack up in a setting without steel weapons or heavy armor. Any way, from the point of view of the game... Steel weapons are unheard of and bronze weapon and armour are very rare; most people still use wood; stone or bone implements. I have no problem with this, though would it be possible for certain civilizations to have access to steel weapons, say the dwarves for example, or would that ruin the continuity of the setting? Consult Arms & Equipment Guide, which among other things has a part of its Armor & Weapons chapter which describes when particular kinds of gear were available, tech-wise. It also contains rules for chariots, which will be useful to you in such a game. Thank you for reminding me about that book :P Its actualy sitting on my shelf collecting dust, I completely forgot I had it. :embarrass
Etarnon 03-10-08, 05:33 PM	I'd go for the mongoose Conan, also. Slapdashing around, bending to fit, painting to match... Too much work. I suggest spend the $ and use Conan, as written.
JulesCARV 03-10-08, 06:28 PM	Here are some ideas. Pick and choose a mix if you want. -In fantasy settings, magic is generally in decline as civilization, technology, rationality, and progress advance. As such, where civilization and progress have made very little headway, magic is far more powerful. All PCs are gestalted as sorcerers, and many important NPCs as well. -Wizards, wu jens, and archivists don't exist. -Bronze implements are the default for humans, halflings, orcs, etc. However, dwarves have developed iron. The secret of iron is one that dwarves have jealously kept to themselves, and they have been known to kill any non-dwarf seen with possession of iron. Elves have not yet undergone their metamorphosis in generally benign humanoids, and are currently fey creatures who frequently abduct newborn infants; cold iron is another dwarven invention, prized for its ability to kill elves. -Armors are limited to padded, leather, studded leather, hide, and scale.
Gavin Stormlance 03-11-08, 08:41 AM	Elves have not yet undergone their metamorphosis in generally benign humanoids, and are currently fey creatures who frequently abduct newborn infants; cold iron is another dwarven invention, prized for its ability to kill elves. This I like, though I'm not sure I'll have them abducting infants, just because I can't see a reason for them to want to. Instead I think they will be the keepers of true arcane magic and guard it jealously. This gives an explination iof why arcane magic is so rare.
Jackmojo 03-11-08, 01:44 PM	This I like, though I'm not sure I'll have them abducting infants, just because I can't see a reason for them to want to. Instead I think they will be the keepers of true arcane magic and guard it jealously. This gives an explination iof why arcane magic is so rare. Heh, they could be stealing all the other races sorcerer/bard/arcanely talented babies and eating/sacrificing/whatever them to keep the magic alive. Plus wild Fey Elves as adversaries is sooo very classic (curse you Tolkien, for making them heroes!) I'm looking for something pretty close to the Conan setting, but not the exact same thing. Concerning magic I really want to make magic feel different in this setting, so I thought I might use one of the systems from Tome of Magic, I'm leaning toward either Binding or Shadow Magic, I'd love to get your thoughts on how these might stack up in a setting without steel weapons or heavy armor. I'm not super familiar with these, not owning that particular book, but if they are "Magic at Great Cost" then they should be in line with the old Conan stories. Personally, I'd likely come up a simple system perhaps modeled on the sacrifice component of the spells in the Book of Exalted Deeds where by spells do some amount of ability damage, but this would be for NPCs as the heroes should be proper Sword and Sorcery Types (aka thieves, murderers, and scoundrels :) ) I have no problem with this, though would it be possible for certain civilizations to have access to steel weapons, say the dwarves for example, or would that ruin the continuity of the setting? In Conan, of course, the non-human creatures were always adversarial and secretive, so this works great if you don't plan on having dwarven PCs (perhaps instead of regular dwarves use the outsider ones who get all the free crafting abilities...I forget the name, I think they're in Frostburn, modeled on classic Norse mythic Dwarves, rather then drunken Scots), but you can just as easily have the superior weapons be from a fallen civilization (Atlantis and Lemuria) or crafted by the gods themselves... Jack
AntiDjinn 03-11-08, 02:18 PM	Elves might want to steal infants because the legend of the fey doing so, and replacing them with changelings, is one of the oldest myths in the real world. Such folk tales probably originated from the time period you are working with. It goes like this: Faeries (brownies, elves, other seelie) would become fascinated with a particular baby or child and steal it. They would leave a fey baby in its place, one that would take on the appearance of the stolen child. The parents might notice that the child is suddenly more withdrawn but there would be no physical signs of the abduction. The child would always be a little "off" and never quite connect with others in the village. Eventually, the changeling would feel the call of its fey blood and return to the wild. The stolen human child might have already aged to death or met a similar bad end by that point (in ancient legends fey abductions went very badly for the abducted; about as well as alien abductions in modern mythology). In real life, the stories of changelings are probably accounts of the then rare instances of autism; the sudden change in a child's behavior could be explained by abduction and replacement with a physical duplicate. Anyway, the practice is appropriate for the time period in the real world, but maybe not for your game world. If you want elves to be a PC race then probably not.
JulesCARV 03-11-08, 03:20 PM	This I like, though I'm not sure I'll have them abducting infants, just because I can't see a reason for them to want to. Instead I think they will be the keepers of true arcane magic and guard it jealously. This gives an explination iof why arcane magic is so rare. So I take it you're not going with the "magic is more common in the dawn of history before its diminution at the hands of reason, progress, technology, and civilization" trope then.
Gavin Stormlance 03-11-08, 04:27 PM	So I take it you're not going with the "magic is more common in the dawn of history before its diminution at the hands of reason, progress, technology, and civilization" trope then. No, infact the oposite. In the dawn of history magic is uncommon and difficult to control, requiering extensive rituels and usually more than one sorcerer to perform. Then as history progresses and more study in done in the field of arcane research, simpler spells are created to controle magic, giving way to the "modern" wizard. I'm now leaning toward replacing the regular caster lasses with the Gem Master and Gem Sorcerer from R.A.Salvator's Demonwars setting, along with the Ring Stone Magic sytem. With this system spells are cast through gemstones. In my setting this would be explained as useing the gemstone as a focus to controle the wild magic around you. Also this sytem allows anyone to be proficient with the use of Ring Stones, allowing fighters and rogues to use magic to some extent. Thoughts?
Gavin Stormlance 03-12-08, 12:53 PM	Come on, this is just brainstorming. Please throw out any advice, suggestions, ideas, or whatever.
Jackmojo 03-12-08, 01:09 PM	Come on, this is just brainstorming. Please throw out any advice, suggestions, ideas, or whatever. Uhm, ok, what classes are you planning on using? What races are going to allow, what levels are you planning for...etc Jack
Gavin Stormlance 03-12-08, 01:58 PM	Well, for classes right now I'm thinking: Barbarian Fighter Monk (maybe) Ranger (maybe, if I replace their spells per day with gem magic feats) Rogue Gem Master and Gem Sorcerer For PC races I'm currently thinking: Human Half-Orc Halfling Dwarf and Gnome (maybe if I replace their natural magic with an affinety for the gam magic) As for levels, I'm not entierly sure what you mean. I'm hoping to use this setting for several campaigns in the future, handling any level of characters from 1st to epic.
Olween 03-12-08, 02:40 PM	Do you already have an adventure/campaign in mind? I would personally probably go for something like that: -The adventure starts around Troy in moderne day Turkey. -This is not yet a city, more like a small town, but the biggest human centre in the region. The current leader is trying to build it as a fortress where the surrounding inhabitants can take refuge in case of invasion. -Troy is on the North-Western edge of civilization; in the South-East is Mesopotamia where civilization is slowly budding. -Troy is loosely connected to Mesopotamia, from there came major achievement like agriculture, metallurgy as well as the concept of city fortification. There is some trade going on between Troy and this civilization centre, but it takes months of travel and only involve a few people. -The East and North are savage lands. The rare humans there are wandering nomads. Most of them have some breeding activity, mostly goats with some horses (mostly used for pulling stuff or as a source of food; horseback riding is mostly unheard for among humans) and, in rare occasion, some cattle. These are rare and powerful, lightly domesticated animals -think bison- they are extremely prestigious to have. -The west (Greece) is less populated and more peaceful. The people there are sedentary, with some agriculture completed by fishing activity. People can travel West through a land bridge but mostly do so by boat. These are small embarkations but the sea is littered with tiny island where to take refuge and resupply. There is some contact between Troy and Greece; mostly trade and they are some colonies of 'Trojan people' (people that share the same tongue and culture as the trojan) on the Eastern coast of Greece. If you want to had non human people, I think there could be colonies on the outside of the human civilization (North and East of Troy) and mostly reclusives -a bit legendary; especially dwarves and elves. Or maybe the elves could be the equivalent of the Atlantes (highly civilized with a level of culture similar to that of ancient greece and a use of Arcane magic) with sophisticated ships (triremes; quinqueremes) leaving on an island or on several smaller coastal cities. Maybe the gnomes of halflings could be the traders (nomadic traders slowly circulating between the human city; a bit like gypsies). And I like AntiDjinn's idea. It could be a nice idea for a campaign. Investigate the strange behaviour of a young child. When you arrive, the old ladies start spinning tales about him being replaced by a changeling... Except that they are right. And the players get the real child back and discover why he was kidnapped in the first place (sacrificial or as a guinea-pig to study human magic or part of a breeding program to enhance human magical potential or some kind of old incomprehensible prophecy -like Eberron's draconic prophecy). Before that, I would ease the players into your world by doing a few missions to help the king build his fortress...
WHW4 03-12-08, 05:08 PM	My suggestion would be to use the Iron Heroes books in conjunction with the variant arcanist (the spellcaster from the Iron Heroes PHB) from a book called True Sorcery. Iron Heroes conveys a very "Conan-like" feel without all the trappings of being set in Hyboria and having to dig through all that backstory, yadda yadda. The arcanist from Iron Heres left alot to be desired for, but the variant from True Sorcery really made it shine. True Sorcery is kind of like a free-form magic system, very flexible. Our group is running both right now, and one guy is playing said variant arcanist and having an absolute blast with it. Just google it.