Changing Abilities [Archive] - Wizards Community

Changing Abilities [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Confusion567
06-20-07, 05:07 PM How do y'all feel about changing the key abilities for skills and special combat actions? I'm starting to get a slippery slope kind of feeling.

I have a monk in my group, for example, currently fourth level, who is pouring all of his efforts into his dexterity and wisdom (he took Weapon Finesse, so he doesn't need strength at all to fight effectively). The conversation started with a discussion of Professions. I suggested craft, and he expressed disappointment that it uses his low int score. I hinted that maybe I could find a way to work in Dexterity (it's working with his hands, after all). Then we noticed that some fantastic combat maneuvers that he would very much like to do (Grapple, Trip) are based on strength, as are climbing and jumping. I want to allow him to use his natural agility to augment these, but I worry that the Cleric will ask to use wisdom for his knowledge checks, or the sorceror will want to make spellcraft checks with his charisma.

Anybody have a similar problem?
Magrus
06-20-07, 06:45 PM Personally, I started to houserule things in my campaigns something like this. All of those "neat" feats that allow you use say, Str instead of Cha for Intimdation, and Wis for Archery to attack instead of Dex, and Dex instead of Str to attack with finessable weapons, or the one that allows for a Cha bonus to Will saves rather than Wis, or the Tactile Trapsmith that uses Dex instead of Int for Disable Device? Those don't exist.

Instead, the character starts picking one or the other at creation. High Dex wants to use a rapier? He selects the "Dex" route, and bam, free weapon finesse. No 1 feat penalty to the elf rogue as opposed by the human barbarian wielding a greatsword. Cleric wants to be an archer? Zen archery is free! Just can't use Dex instead later on because you found those nift Gloves of Dex +6.

It allowed for some players to tweak out some characters and make them pretty optimized. Then again, what source out there can't be tweaked anyhow? If you like it, try it, and just let your players know you are trying something and it may be switched later on in game. If so, you will work with them so they don't end up screwed if the change affects them. So, that rogue who has a high Dex and not so high Int can still disarm traps, so long as he put his more limited skill points into the skill. He's agile, and he is using his agility instead of his brain to work it.
Kouk
06-20-07, 07:59 PM It is a slippery slope.

Keep in mind that he chose to focus on Dexterity and Wisdom rather than Strength to begin with (probably). He is harder to hit with his high Dex and Wisdom bonus to AC, he probably has decent balance/tumble etc. skills. He could have chosen the higher damaging route, but he went with the higher defense one. That's fine, you have to make choices. One character should not try (or be able) to do everything at once.

There are several ways he can improve his ability with those special maneuvers though. He can take Improved Grapple at level 1 (I would recommend not doing this though, maybe take it later as a normal feat), Improved Trip as his 6th level bonus feat, and if he has Combat Expertise he can also take some of the other "Improved" abilities.

He can utilize his high Dex to boost Escape Artist, to escape from unfavorable Grapples.

The simplest fix for Tripping would be to always use a Trip Weapon, such as the Kama. This way he can drop the weapon if he fails, and he has the option of flurrying with it (you can even flurry special attacks like trips and disarms). Using a weapon does not provoke an AoO, even if you don't have Improved Trip. He can also carry the weapon in his hand all day, without interfering with his normal Unarmed Attacks, as Monks can attack with any part of their body and not just hands.

The nunchaku and sai let you Disarm more easily, and if you happen to be disarmed of your own weapon - so what, you're a monk.

You might consider creating a feat to allow him to make these kinds of maneuvers with his Dexterity if you want to accommodate him, but I don't think that is ideal. The other players will see you bending over backwards for him, and may want similar rules that support their own abilities.

I would consider allowing him to rearrange his ability scores a bit, but I'm exceptionally forgiving with character generation (and use point buy, so it is easy to recalculate stats entirely, and not just reassign them). Maybe swap his Wis and Str scores and items.

Depending on how many supplements you allow though, you can make very effective Dex based Monks. There are many feats which have nothing to do with the special combat maneuvers.
Vharuck
06-20-07, 08:23 PM The DMG has a little section on this. It points out that sometimes, depending on the situation, different ability bonuses could be substituted.

For example, if a rogue is concentrating on a trap's mechanism that is currently in motion to determine what it does and when, I'd use the Int bonus to the Reflex roll. The rogue's too focused to be able to react as effectively as normal (downplaying Dex) but a clue gained from solving the mechanism's working could tip him off (Intelligence is used for learning and logical thought).

However, these changes are solely your purview. Not the players. Your goal is to create a fun world for everyone; you can't benefit yourself in any way. The player can.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Confusion567 06-20-07, 05:07 PM	How do y'all feel about changing the key abilities for skills and special combat actions? I'm starting to get a slippery slope kind of feeling. I have a monk in my group, for example, currently fourth level, who is pouring all of his efforts into his dexterity and wisdom (he took Weapon Finesse, so he doesn't need strength at all to fight effectively). The conversation started with a discussion of Professions. I suggested craft, and he expressed disappointment that it uses his low int score. I hinted that maybe I could find a way to work in Dexterity (it's working with his hands, after all). Then we noticed that some fantastic combat maneuvers that he would very much like to do (Grapple, Trip) are based on strength, as are climbing and jumping. I want to allow him to use his natural agility to augment these, but I worry that the Cleric will ask to use wisdom for his knowledge checks, or the sorceror will want to make spellcraft checks with his charisma. Anybody have a similar problem?
Magrus 06-20-07, 06:45 PM	Personally, I started to houserule things in my campaigns something like this. All of those "neat" feats that allow you use say, Str instead of Cha for Intimdation, and Wis for Archery to attack instead of Dex, and Dex instead of Str to attack with finessable weapons, or the one that allows for a Cha bonus to Will saves rather than Wis, or the Tactile Trapsmith that uses Dex instead of Int for Disable Device? Those don't exist. Instead, the character starts picking one or the other at creation. High Dex wants to use a rapier? He selects the "Dex" route, and bam, free weapon finesse. No 1 feat penalty to the elf rogue as opposed by the human barbarian wielding a greatsword. Cleric wants to be an archer? Zen archery is free! Just can't use Dex instead later on because you found those nift Gloves of Dex +6. It allowed for some players to tweak out some characters and make them pretty optimized. Then again, what source out there can't be tweaked anyhow? If you like it, try it, and just let your players know you are trying something and it may be switched later on in game. If so, you will work with them so they don't end up screwed if the change affects them. So, that rogue who has a high Dex and not so high Int can still disarm traps, so long as he put his more limited skill points into the skill. He's agile, and he is using his agility instead of his brain to work it.
Kouk 06-20-07, 07:59 PM	It is a slippery slope. Keep in mind that he chose to focus on Dexterity and Wisdom rather than Strength to begin with (probably). He is harder to hit with his high Dex and Wisdom bonus to AC, he probably has decent balance/tumble etc. skills. He could have chosen the higher damaging route, but he went with the higher defense one. That's fine, you have to make choices. One character should not try (or be able) to do everything at once. There are several ways he can improve his ability with those special maneuvers though. He can take Improved Grapple at level 1 (I would recommend not doing this though, maybe take it later as a normal feat), Improved Trip as his 6th level bonus feat, and if he has Combat Expertise he can also take some of the other "Improved" abilities. He can utilize his high Dex to boost Escape Artist, to escape from unfavorable Grapples. The simplest fix for Tripping would be to always use a Trip Weapon, such as the Kama. This way he can drop the weapon if he fails, and he has the option of flurrying with it (you can even flurry special attacks like trips and disarms). Using a weapon does not provoke an AoO, even if you don't have Improved Trip. He can also carry the weapon in his hand all day, without interfering with his normal Unarmed Attacks, as Monks can attack with any part of their body and not just hands. The nunchaku and sai let you Disarm more easily, and if you happen to be disarmed of your own weapon - so what, you're a monk. You might consider creating a feat to allow him to make these kinds of maneuvers with his Dexterity if you want to accommodate him, but I don't think that is ideal. The other players will see you bending over backwards for him, and may want similar rules that support their own abilities. I would consider allowing him to rearrange his ability scores a bit, but I'm exceptionally forgiving with character generation (and use point buy, so it is easy to recalculate stats entirely, and not just reassign them). Maybe swap his Wis and Str scores and items. Depending on how many supplements you allow though, you can make very effective Dex based Monks. There are many feats which have nothing to do with the special combat maneuvers.
Vharuck 06-20-07, 08:23 PM	The DMG has a little section on this. It points out that sometimes, depending on the situation, different ability bonuses could be substituted. For example, if a rogue is concentrating on a trap's mechanism that is currently in motion to determine what it does and when, I'd use the Int bonus to the Reflex roll. The rogue's too focused to be able to react as effectively as normal (downplaying Dex) but a clue gained from solving the mechanism's working could tip him off (Intelligence is used for learning and logical thought). However, these changes are solely your purview. Not the players. Your goal is to create a fun world for everyone; you can't benefit yourself in any way. The player can.